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‘Verdict makes me feel like a 2nd-class citizen’

I think even if VHP declares that they would not challenge any other site which was previously temple after Janmsthan is handed over to them, it would still be secularity. But to prove secularity, Both Parties should declare something jointly which was preserve the peach and harmony for long time.

There is no need for that as there is already a law passed by the Indian parliament in 1991 or 93 which says that all such religious places will be out of bounds of such a litigation with a cut-off date of 15 Aug 1947. Of course, the BJP/VHP/etc could reaffirm their commitment to follow this law fully in order to make our Muslim brothers feel safer.

As Justice S U Khan said, we may have survived the 1992 demolition, but we may not survive another Babri-like demolition.
 
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You are right to a great extent here.
The problem is that how India is projected by Hindus and how it is practiced. This gap is daunting and humiliating for most of the people living in this country, including Hindus.

I whole heartedly agree to your post. The same posters that have no problem trampling your rights routinely tout India as the biggest secular demcracy unlike xyz country.
 
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This is a quite brilliant peice of an article by Vice Chancelor Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi.

Post-judgment, a chance for Hindus & Muslims to forge new ties

By Najeeb Jung

After a wait of 61 years, the learned judges presented a cocktail of belief, history and jurisprudence in the Babri Masjid title suit. Wrestling with the expectations of society and influenced by their own beliefs the parts of the judgment revealed thus far manifest an attempt at statesmanship and matchmaking that go beyond the issues they were expected to adjudicate upon. As if on cue, the order is to divide the cake into three slices that may satisfy three expectant children. As expected the parties now prepare for petitioning the Supreme Court.

The question now is on the path forward. Should the matter go on to the SC where it will perhaps be contested for a further two decades, and even then the outcome may only open sore wounds once again? Or should this be converted into an opportunity, resting upon the understanding that Hindus and Muslims are inherent to the DNA of India, and if parts of the DNA are mutually antagonistic the body turns cancerous? As I write, I comprehend the pain of large sections of Muslim society and the pain of millions of Hindus with regards the judgment. But the deed is done, and is it possible to turn this moment of doubt into one of historical significance when the two communities can forge a new relationship?

The answer, at least for Muslims, lies imbedded in Justice Khan’s judgment where he quotes the Prophet’s (peace be upon him), treaty of Hubaida. The Muslim armies had encircled Mecca having converged on Mecca from all parts of Arabia to perform the first Haj. Undeniably, had a battle had taken place, the Muslims would have conquered Mecca and performed the Haj. This victory would not just be a military conquest over a powerful city, but a payback for the atrocities committed on the Prophet and his followers by the powerful Quraish tribe over the past two decades. But, in the midst of all the hysteria, the Prophet held talks with the Quraish. Much to the dismay and shock of the Muslims, he agreed to withdraw for a period of one year. At the conclusion of the year the Muslims would return for Haj without hindrance. No historic decision is ever easy, and the Prophet was questioned by no less than the tallest of his companions, the second Caliph, Hazrat Omar. The following year, the Muslims not only performed the Haj but were welcomed by the Meccans as their own!

The minorities anywhere are sensitive to being overwhelmed by the majority. And therefore there is an inherent zeal to protect their beliefs and culture. But in this case we are aware that a very large section of the Hindu community realizes the ‘‘majoritarian’’ aspect of this judgment and sympathizes with the Muslims. To this end this judgment carries a hope that these two communities which have lived in this ancient land for over 1,000 years can now pray together. This moment presents an opportunity to the Muslim community to emerge from the shadows of history, the stigma of partition, the throes of fundamentalism and stand tall in the interest of the future generations and of the motherland itself.

But a word of caution is necessary. Because the judgment is being perceived as a ‘‘majoritarian’’ one, there is need for care on the part of the protagonists. Perceptions of glee and exaggerated cries of ‘‘grand’’ temple to be constructed will muddy the waters. The question of any construction is indeed a very complex one because the adjudicated site stands only on 2.77 acres of land of which one third is with the Muslims. Another 70 odd acres of adjoining land has been acquired and vests with the government. No ‘‘grand’’ temple or mosque can be constructed over less than 2 acres of land, and I believe sensing this complexity, spokespersons of various political parties scurried for cover under the excuse of not having read the full judgment. Even if the matter of title is referred to the SC, this complexity shall remain.

Perhaps then it is sensible for the government to be more proactive than it has so far been in resolving this matter. This issue is more complicated than Kashmir or the Naxal issue by multiples. However, afraid of the political fallout, successive governments have not attempted a resolution, putting it on the shoulders of the courts.

This judgment proves that it will now require a combination of political effort and the legal process if we are to see a peaceful resolution. Unfortunately knowing our system, one can safely presume that the government will continue to play safe till it is forced into action. On that presumption we must rely on the greater sense of the people of India, the religious leaders and the intellectuals of all sections of society to look for a resolution. This is the need of the time. In the words of Iqbal:
Watan ki fikr kar nadaan musibat aane waali hai,
Teri barbaadiyon ke mashware hain aasmanon main,
Na samjoge to mit jaaoge e Hindustanwalon,
Tumhari dastan tak bhi na hogi daastanon main.
(Think for the country o fool, for disaster awaits, The skies speak of your tragedies Worry for the country, Or you will be wiped out)

(The writer is vice chancellor of Jamia Millia Islamia)
 
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But in this case we are aware that a very large section of the Hindu community realizes the ‘‘majoritarian’’ aspect of this judgment and sympathizes with the Muslims. To this end this judgment carries a hope that these two communities which have lived in this ancient land for over 1,000 years can now pray together. This moment presents an opportunity to the Muslim community to emerge from the shadows of history, the stigma of partition, the throes of fundamentalism and stand tall in the interest of the future generations and of the motherland itself.

Since you posted this, do you believe in what he is saying? Do you carry the hope that even after the violence carried out by fanatic hindus on Babri, reconciliation is possible. However unfair the verdict is, the underlying intent of well being of future generations is more important than revenge for old injustices, does that sound fair to you?
 
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Another factual peice of article at editorial page ToI, dated 1st Oct 2010.

Fighter

The Muddle Path



Thursday’s verdict on the Ayodhya case bestows a dubious legality on claims rooted in faith and belief



Dileep Padgaonkar



The verdict of the Lucknow bench of the Allahabad high court on the title suits related to the disputed site in Ayodhya makes you wonder whether anything straight can ever emerge from the crooked timber of the majoritarian mind. The three parties involved in the suits – the Nirmohi Akhara, the Sunni Central Board of Waqf and the Ramlalla Virajman – had expected, on wholly reasonable grounds, that the court would rule in favour of one or the other side without a trace of ambiguity. What the three judges decided instead was to trifurcate the land and hand it over to the litigants in equal parts.

Among the factors that led them to do so, the most intriguing by far is the cachet of legality that they have bestowed on belief and faith. Both, we had assumed, naively as it turns out, had to be kept outside the ambit of the court. Here, judges weigh evidence rooted in incontrovertible facts, examine the pertinence of reasoned arguments and proceed to deliver a judgement that conforms, in letter and spirit, with the laws prevalent in the land. But by their very nature, faith and belief have no factual basis. They are above reason. And if push comes to shove, they aren’t answerable to norms of legality laid down by mere mortals.

This is the road that the three judges chose to tread. They looked upon Lord Ram not as a mythological figure who, given his exemplary life and character, dwells in the hearts of millions of Hindus, but as a historical character. This explains the court’s willingness to identify the precise location of his place of birth. The exercise did not call for a shred of evidence. None was sought and none was forthcoming. It was undertaken simply because the faith and belief of Hindus decreed that the Lord was born under the central dome of the mosque that was razed to the ground.

Once faith and belief are factored into a resolution of a
legal tangle, you embark, swiftly and surely, on the slippery slope of majoritarian conceit. Both can well come into play if a settlement is discussed outside the confines of a court. Attempts to this effect have indeed been made since 1992. Each one has failed. The reason, quite simply, is that when the sangh parivar asked for a compromise, it in fact wanted the Muslims to renounce their claims to the disputed area “out of respect for Hindu sentiments”. That was no compromise solution at all. It was a summons to surrender.

For this very reason, the Muslims asserted time and again that they would like the case to be examined in a court of law and that they would abide by its verdict. This affirmation of trust in the judiciary is easily explained. They had every right to expect the court to focus on the title suits without taking into account considerations that were extraneous to the judicial process.

The biggest infirmity of Thursday’s verdict, therefore, is that the court treated Lord Ram as a ‘juristic person’. In the eyes of the law, a deity or an idol is thus entitled to be placed on par with flesh-and-blood litigants. The sheer brazenness of this stand, which belittles the exalted stature of Hinduism’s most revered divinity, makes you wince.

After this bit of ‘creative’ legal thinking, the other infirmities in the verdict appear to be no more than trifles. Take the issue of whether or not a mosque was built after demolishing a temple. From all accounts, the findings of the Archaeological Survey of India were incomplete at best and, at worst, misleading. At any rate, experts are divided on the subject. But that did not persuade the judges to exercise a bit of circumspection.

But assume for a moment that Babar did order the destruction of a temple and the construction of a mosque in its place. How can you apply the laws of the 21 st century to the depredations witnessed in the 16 th century? And, more significant still, why should the sins committed by Babar visit his co-religionists today? In a country where, for example, Buddhists have been at the receiving end of Hindus, this can open a can of worms. This verdict therefore smacks of majoritarian arrogance which, one hopes, will be jettisoned root and branch by the Supreme Court.

The silver lining in all this is that the country has by and large heeded the appeal of political parties and religious leaders to remain calm after the verdict. With the exception of a few hotheads, who have again raised the spectre of Kashi and Mathura, their own reactions have indeed been muted. Does this augur well for an out-of-court settlement? Much would depend on the outcome of a criminal case related to the demolition of the mosque that is being heard in another court. Exemplary punishment for those who brought shame and infamy to India could go a long way in persuading the Muslims to part with the land that is now rightly theirs in the larger interests of the nation. They can then walk tall as citizens who put the future of our democratic and secular republic above their sense of hurt.
 
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Since you posted this, do you believe in what he is saying? Do you carry the hope that even after the violence carried out by fanatic hindus on Babri, reconciliation is possible. However unfair the verdict is, the underlying intent of well being of future generations is more important than revenge for old injustices, does that sound fair to you?

My sympathy to Ram supporters? A resounding YES. Definitely.

My opposition to those who are fanatic hindus and even those fanatic among muslims, and these very people who are actually the greatest threat to this country.

Reconcillation is always possible. Babri Masjid suit must be decided on legal grounds not on FAITH AND BELIEF. That's the bottom line and it is the essence of any JUDICIAL SYSTEM world over.

In my opinion Muslims should give the land of erst while Babri Masjid to Hindus to build a RAM temple. This will be a great way of unity and integrity of this country.

But with dubious decisions, cheating and threatening, a BIG NO!!

I think I am clear enough here.

Fighter
 
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My sympathy to Ram supporters? A resounding YES. Definitely.

My opposition to those who are fanatic hindus and even those fanatic among muslims, and these very people who are actually the greatest threat to this country.

Reconcillation is always possible. Babri Masjid suit must be decided on legal grounds not on FAITH AND BELIEF. That's the bottom line and it is the essence of any JUDICIAL SYSTEM world over.

In my opinion Muslims should give the land of erst while Babri Masjid to Hindus to build a RAM temple. This will be a great way of unity and integrity of this country.

But with dubious decisions, cheating and threatening, a BIG NO!!

I think I am clear enough here.

Fighter

I agree with you, justice has to be fair, not utilitarian. Faith cannot be used as justification for bending the rules. Even if the decision results in greater good, it does not inherently make it fair.

Thanks.
 
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To all those doubting the veracity of this judgement on a perceived notion that Faith played a role in this verdict...whats your take on the Shah Bano case - in which a separate law was passed to dilute a secular judgement - which may have been a precedent to this .?

What more could the judges have done without hurting the sentiments of either group.?

It is very easy to criticise..but difficult to provide a solution for that.
 
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To all those doubting the veracity of this judgement on a perceived notion that Faith played a role in this verdict...whats your take on the Shah Bano case - in which a separate law was passed to dilute a secular judgement - which may have been a precedent to this .?

What more could the judges have done without hurting the sentiments of either group.?

It is very easy to criticise..but difficult to provide a solution for that.

Its not sentiments some terrorist destroyed a religious structure so they should be punished as terrorist not glorified - courts are suppose to prevent violence not encourage fanatics
 
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Its not sentiments some terrorist destroyed a religious structure so they should be punished as terrorist not glorified - courts are suppose to prevent violence not encourage fanatics

I know even this post will be ignored by you for obvious reasons,but is there any harm in trying.?

This is not the verdict for the criminal case dealing with the demolition of the disputed structure on Dec 6 1992.

Rather its the 6 decade old civil case of who owns this piece of land which was in the courts long before the demolition.And the verdict is only for that.
 
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*sigh*
The Judges statements about faith are Obiter dictum , the meaning :

an obiter dictum is a remark or observation made by a judge that, although included in the body of the court's opinion, does not form a necessary part of the court's decision. In a court opinion, obiter dicta include, but are not limited to, words "introduced by way of illustration, or analogy or argument." Unlike the rationes decidendi, obiter dicta are not the subject of the judicial decision, even if they happen to be correct statements of law.

The actual 'verdict' has hundreds of pages, please leave the interpretation to legal experts
 
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It is very easy to criticise..but difficult to provide a solution for that.


solution is easy, you do not let rapine and murder win.

you allow the mosque to be restored because its destruction was a criminal act, its that simple.
 
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solution is easy, you do not let rapine and murder win.

you allow the mosque to be restored because its destruction was a criminal act, its that simple.

murderer will not win. They will be penalized under criminal laws. As far as I know, in India each case is treated differently. It's not like Taliban rule otherwise there will not be any difference.
 
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I disagree with the view that the case was decided on the basis of faith. From whatever analysis I have heard and read, the judgement seems to have a sound legal basis. But, in order to reach a reasonable conclusion, one must read the whole judgement with a legal eye. I do applaud the spirit behind the judgement which is that of reconciliation.

However, I have to say that not punishing those responsible for the Babri demolition and the riots afterwards is a blot on our judicial system. There is no point hiding behind sweet words as far as this issue is concerned. Why is such a blatant case of violence taking such a long time? If fast-track courts can be set up for ordinary or extraordinary **** or murder cases, then what prevents the same for this case? It is a simple lack of willpower on the part of our political, administrative and judicial machinery. In my opinion, it is shameful, although nothing new :(
 
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