Vayu Calls JF17- A Game Changer.

[rcrmj]

for now yes
once we get LCA rolling we will work on AMCA.

LCA launched in 83, might get full readiness in 2015 if things went smoothly, and AMCA started few years ago according to the previous experience it might get in to IAF by 2040```so yes until then JF-17 is game changer since its 4th gen, IAF might have more advanced planes but there is no generation gap``more importantly JF-17 is much cheapter and easier to deploy in large numbers. so when two sides having the same generation weapons, training and numerical superiority is going to be the decisive element in war.

 

[notorious_eagle]

We are aiming to be a global power hence we need those birds

Nops, you want to counter China's military might and that is why you want to add those birds to your arsenal. These birds wont help you project any power around the world and judging from India's past actions, its very unlikely that India will lend a couple of birds for international obligations. As China adds squadrons after squadrons of modern fighter jets, India needs these birds to form a strong deterrent force.

 

[chess]

Nops, you want to counter China's military might and that is why you want to add those birds to your arsenal. These birds wont help you project any power around the world and judging from India's past actions, its very unlikely that India will lend a couple of birds for international obligations. As China adds squadrons after squadrons of modern fighter jets, India needs these birds to form a strong deterrent force.

IAf itself is facing trouble with numbers. It cannot lend them

 

[PakShaheen79]

I think what Indian members are missing here is the fact that JF-17 Thunder is perhaps the only fighters which was designed for specific requirements of PAF right from the beginning unlike any other fighter in the world. This is a big difference. Now, CAC and PAF are the only two entities who can claim to know this bird inside-out. Technical ambiguity is a big advantage for PAF.

JF-17 Thunder must not be compared to SU-30 MKI or MMRCA as it was never intended to counter these threats but holistically speaking, with its proposed modernization in block II, I don't see any reason why it cannot take on both MKI and MMRCA in a defensive role. From its specifications it is also clear that i would not deployed in SEAD/DEAD ops for that Block-52/FC-20 would take on responsibility. Right now, PAF has limited ability to counter MKI, Mirage-2000, Mig-29s even in defensive role (while flying within our own air space in time of war) but after the induction of planned 250 thunders, GAME would be changed FOR SURE. As Thunders along with AWACS would make sure to deny air superiority to IAF over Pakistani skies, Block-52/FC-20 would be able to fly more sorties for deep strike missions.

 

[INDTAM]

Nops, you want to counter China's military might and that is why you want to add those birds to your arsenal. These birds wont help you project any power around the world and judging from India's past actions, its very unlikely that India will lend a couple of birds for international obligations. As China adds squadrons after squadrons of modern fighter jets, India needs these birds to form a strong deterrent force.

Its a no brainer buddy.
We will NOT use it to liberate some country to give them freedom please!
Don't paint us with the same brush as WEST.
Will China do it then why us mate?
It will help us to safeguard our interest away from home period.

---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

I think what Indian members are missing here is the fact that JF-17 Thunder is perhaps the only fighters which was designed for specific requirements of PAF right from the beginning unlike any other fighter in the world. This is a big difference. Now, CAC and PAF are the only two entities who can claim to know this bird inside-out. Technical ambiguity is a big advantage for PAF.

JF-17 Thunder must not be compared to SU-30 MKI or MMRCA as it was never intended to counter these threats but holistically speaking, with its proposed modernization in block II, I don't see any reason why it cannot take on both MKI and MMRCA in a defensive role. From its specifications it is also clear that i would not deployed in SEAD/DEAD ops for that Block-52/FC-20 would take on responsibility. Right now, PAF has limited ability to counter MKI, Mirage-2000, Mig-29s even in defensive role (while flying within our own air space in time of war) but after the induction of planned 250 thunders, GAME would be changed FOR SURE. As Thunders along with AWACS would make sure to deny air superiority to IAF over Pakistani skies, Block-52/FC-20 would be able to fly more sorties for deep strike missions.

not deny but make it extremely difficult for some period of time.

Otherwise I completely agree with you.

 

[INDTAM]

LCA launched in 83, might get full readiness in 2015 if things went smoothly, and AMCA started few years ago according to the previous experience it might get in to IAF by 2040```so yes until then JF-17 is game changer since its 4th gen, IAF might have more advanced planes but there is no generation gap``more importantly JF-17 is much cheapter and easier to deploy in large numbers. so when two sides having the same generation weapons, training and numerical superiority is going to be the decisive element in war.

It was proposed in 83 yes.

But your forgetting that its only for the past decade or so we are able to spend good fortune of money for R&D purpose.
Also not to forget the embargo on key technology which hampered its development.
Just see how fast the progress is being made after this embargo on DRDO and other key Defence related research organisation lifted by USA a year back!!!!!

Its indigenous and we can't do a Reverse engineering of Russian bird to help Tejas because the only country supplying us with key defence technology will be offended.

 

[rcrmj]

It was proposed in 83 yes.

But your forgetting that its only for the past decade or so we are able to spend good fortune of money for R&D purpose.
Also not to forget the embargo on key technology which hampered its development.
Just see how fast the progress is being made after this embargo on DRDO and other key Defence related research organisation lifted by USA a year back!!!!!

Its indigenous and we can't do a Reverse engineering of Russian bird to help Tejas because the only country supplying us with key defence technology will be offended.

groundless assumption, the ambitious plan was to make every bit of LCA 'indigenous'``but failed, and then contracted French to do the design, and borrow couple of wing design concept from Saab S-37, then bought engines and FBW from americ, radars and electronic parts from isreal and europ and weapons from russia..

and your poor excuse of revers engineering is laughable, people or any country will be stupid enough to re-invent the wheels, the fact is India simply does not have the technological know-how to produce a 4th gen fither``you dont even have a capable wind tunnel which is the key infrastructure before even talking about develop a plane```

 

[IND151]

^^ kinetic posted photos of indian wind tunnel in a thread long time ago

 

[rcrmj]

^^ kinetic posted photos of indian wind tunnel in a thread long time ago

didnt know that``then its a progress

 

[Storm Force]

Right now, PAF has limited ability to counter MKI, Mirage-2000, Mig-29s even in defensive role (while flying within our own air space in time of war) but after the induction of planned 250 thunders, GAME would be changed FOR SURE. As Thunders along with AWACS would make sure to deny air superiority to IAF over Pakistani skies, Block-52/FC-20 would be able to fly more sorties for deep strike missions.

Pak Shaheen.

By the time PAF has a fleet of Thunders numbering 250 THE IAF will have moved another generation.
Its taken 2 years to deliver 36 Thunders
First JFT arrived IN 2009.
What abou cost whose paying for 250 JFT especially ungraded versions

Minimum time span is 2018-2020 to induct 300 Thunders

Those JFT will be one generation behind the MMRCA & new FGFA which will be arriving around 2020

No matter how hard you try you cant turn a budget warplane into a RAFALE TYPHOON OR FGFA type of war plane

Rafale RCS is q quarter of the F16 and has stealth avionics already
FGFA will lead any strike around 2020 and be near invivisble to JFT IN 2020

" You cant buy, acquire 300 thunders in 2 to 3 years" and china cannot produce that many anyway it will take time"

 

[epinephrine]

^^^ n u will also not be having sufficient FGFA by 2020 to lead a strike mission.JFT block 2 will not be generation behind indian MRCA.rafale is a gr8 plane thats y no country has accepted it other than France.India is going for it coz of politics.rafale was the first casualty in indian MRCA an year ago n suddenly it reached at the top this year.can any body explain??

 

[abdulbarijan]

Whats laughable is that one considers 270 odd SU-30 MKI's in the near future
news flash if you consider the production of MKI from 2002 and check out the production rate its somewhere near 16 per year , meaning you need 7-8 years minimum (at the current rate) to produce 270 MKI's thats a time frame of 2018-2019.
as for the JFT issue PAC completed 26 of them in about 2 years,
PAF completes production of 26 JF-17 Thunder jets: Pak official - Times Of India

that is by the way 13 aircrafts per year,dont you guys think that when an "undeclared super power" joins the picture the production rate will I dont know rise a little ??
As for JFT lagging behind the likes of Rafale and MKI...
sure there is no argument in that whatsoever
but still I'd put my money on JFT II backed by force multipliers any day against rafale.
And JFT-II itself is not a joke ( it will definitely be superior or atleast equal to the latest M2k's or SMT's or block 52's)
As for RCS, hate to break it to you guys but they are reducing the RCS again...
What I dont understand is that some people think that PAF will only have JFT or JFT II's,I mean what about FC-20's which is basically going to be aquired for the MMRCA threat.
now I know what you guys will say that 36-40 dont make a difference,but senior members here are on record saying that numbers have been increased to 50-60's and some rumors flying around about 100+
As for the basic problem of whose paying,you guys seriously need to let go Pakistan has multiple ways of getting new jets ,it not necessarily just a cash payment it could be a trade off and the situations will be changed once US pulls out of Afghanistan.

 

[desimorty]

JF-17 block 2? Does it have a more powerfull engine? If not its not very different from the earlier version.

 

[desimorty]

groundless assumption, the ambitious plan was to make every bit of LCA 'indigenous'``but failed, and then contracted French to do the design, and borrow couple of wing design concept from Saab S-37, then bought engines and FBW from americ, radars and electronic parts from isreal and europ and weapons from russia..

and your poor excuse of revers engineering is laughable, people or any country will be stupid enough to re-invent the wheels, the fact is India simply does not have the technological know-how to produce a 4th gen fither``you dont even have a capable wind tunnel which is the key infrastructure before even talking about develop a plane```

You should really delete your post because your claims that the LCA borrowed or stole it's wings from the S-37 is BS.

On Topic, the Jf-17 provides the PAF with a cheap BVR solution, its grownd attack should be decent even better than the Tejas given its wingloading. As an airdefence fighter this is better solution IMO than upgraded the F-7 since the JF-17 atleast will have better survivability and potential for upgrades. However there is a limit. It uses C+ rather than ADA for its FBW. Not a good sign. The other is the engine, although the RD-39 is better at short takeoffs than the AL-31 it has not future unless China builds a new variant thats more powerfull. Switching the RD-39 engine out for something else like the Eurojets could be possible but will require changes in the airframe. Can Pakistan change the airframe itself for a different engine without Chinese involvement it may be possible.

 

[acetophenol]

i think jf-17 is indeed a game changer as PAF can attain it in any number it likes.