USS Reagan, OEF and Pakistan

[fatman17]

i dont know about the kick-backs but the cost of the M2Ks was reported to be around US$ 60m/unit inc ground infrastructure.

 

[niaz]

i dont know about the kick-backs but the cost of the M2Ks was reported to be around US$ 60m/unit inc ground infrastructure.

Even $60-million per unit was far too much considering that we had paid $600-million for 28 F16 that is roughly 1/3 of the price of Mirage 2000 in 1990 dollar value.

 

[fatman17]

Even $60-million per unit was far too much considering that we had paid $600-million for 28 F16 that is roughly 1/3 of the price of Mirage 2000 in 1990 dollar value.

yes I agree. i remember ACM Anwar Shamim calling it a super-duper aircraft. the PAF really wanted those 40 a/c.

 

[F.O.X]

We have commited mistakes in past & i hope we dont rewind them now.


Regards
Wilco

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The individual Mirage 2K aircraft were of similiar in price to the F 16's. The 60 million was a complete package per aircraft, support, training, extra engines, munitions and all the good stuff that was needed to support the package.

The reason we were paying 600 million for the F 16's was that we already had a manageable support system and accessories for the aircraft when we had recieved the earlier batch in the 80's. We did not have to start from a scratch for the 28 planes.

The price of the air craft was never an issue and was never questioned. The questions came up when indian agencies flared up a bribery scandal in the pakistani media. Indian defence forces were totally scared stiff by the pakistani acquisition of the M2K.

PAF was blind sided by the cancellation of that purchase a second time. Incidently the sitting govt was over thrown and an interim govt came into power----the FOOL who became the interim prime minister took it upon himself to cancel the purchase agreement.

For people who don't repent their actions, to keep them in check, old mistakes must be rewinded and replayed often in public forums so that newer generation does not repeat them again. And why would the newer generation repeat the mistakes-----because-----we are the genetic off-springs of the people who committed those blunders. So, guess what---who has a bigger chance of repeating those blunders again----WE DO----.

 

[fatman17]

I am not so sure about indian propoganda, but one thing is clear - GoP did not have the funds and the french govt was reluctant to provide soft terms on the loans for this deal.

 

[blain2]

Anyway, SA got gripens coz SA Airforce had been upgrading their infrastructure and tehnological capability for years before the Gripens were acquired. If PAF starts upgrading today, they'll be able to acquire gripens the next decade or so.

Here we go again...on what basis do you assume that PAF require a massive overhaul of their infrastructure and technical knowhow for them to induct the Gripen in the next decade or so??? Any facts, figures or just the usual fact less opinion?

 

[blain2]

yes I agree. i remember ACM Anwar Shamim calling it a super-duper aircraft. the PAF really wanted those 40 a/c.

I am sure ACM Anwar Shamim wanted the aircraft, he also holds the singular honor of being the one who messed up the PAF most from inside and out. Kickbacks were the order of the day in his times and he got fat on those kickbacks.

 

[su-47]

Here we go again...on what basis do you assume that PAF require a massive overhaul of their infrastructure and technical knowhow for them to induct the Gripen in the next decade or so??? Any facts, figures or just the usual fact less opinion?

I am basing my post on this post by MastanKhan. Read the part in red

Hi guys,

Next issue is that of grippen----it is amazing that you guys are arguing with me--the air marshall has clearly stated that the plane is beyond the abilities of the PAF----plain and simple like day light----what differnce does it make if the pilots can fly the plane---all pilots can fly all planes in a given time---but common sense must be used to understand that it takes more than that to maintain and manage an air group. Here, again, the air marshall is saying something and people are clueless to understand that it is beyond our abilities. Plain and simple----let us move ahead. But no----how can this be said about PAF pilots----they are supermen.

So, what is there to not understand that currently, PAF does not have the capability of managing the grippen. That is why we did not buy them.

 

[Titanium]

You base your opinion on someone's opinion. If it was his opinion, what is the point for you repeating like parrot.

 

[blain2]

I am not so sure about indian propoganda, but one thing is clear - GoP did not have the funds and the french govt was reluctant to provide soft terms on the loans for this deal.

Yes this is something that Mastan Khan seems to be missing, along with the fact that some of us were also in the US while PAF F-16 training and additional batches were going through in the 80s

Had Moeen Qureshi not acted, Pakistan would have defaulted and at that dire time (which most credit him for along with the policies he initiated), it just was not possible for PAF to go with a $4 billion dollar purchase of 40 M2K-5s with associated equipment. PAF liked the aircraft and that is fine, but thanks to BB/Gunja crap, the country was in no shape to undertake such an order.

A very good read about the M2K-5 deal is in the official history of the PAF 1988-98. If I have time I will type it out so we have the "version from the Horse's mouth" if we'd all like.

 

[su-47]

You base your opinion on someone's opinion. If it was his opinion, what is the point for you repeating like parrot.

read the whole thread before commenting.

I wasnt basing my opinion on anyone's opinion. I was just saying based on MastanKhans post that PAF can get gripens if they build infrastructure to support it, like South Africa did. This is my own original opinion.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I believe this argument of Grippen is going stale. Here is a paste and post of Air Marshall's interview to jung. It is posted on page 4 of this thread. The Acm is clearly stating that PAF does not have the ability to handle this technology. How else must the ACM make the statement---he is as blunt as he can be under the circumstances. This was the last question of the interview.

Q. Pakistan is going for F-16s. After 5 years their won't be any room left for the upgradation of F-16C/D whereas F-16 MLU will already been upgraded and cannot be upgraded further. Why Pakistan is not going for JAS-39C Grippen, in which their is room for upgradation of aircraft as well SAAB has agreed to transfer the technology to Pakistan?

Ans. As i have mentioned earlier, latest upgradation, airborne equipment and weapon system can increase the lethality of the aircraft. New variants are certainly different from their older counterparts. As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth, we are not in a state of handle extremely high technology used in JAS-39 Grippen, as we don't have the bases of aerial technogy.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hi,

I believe this argument of Grippen is going stale. Here is a paste and post of Air Marshall's interview to jung. It is posted on page 4 of this thread. The Acm is clearly stating that PAF does not have the ability to handle this technology. How else must the ACM make the statement---he is as blunt as he can be under the circumstances. This was the last question of the interview.

Q. Pakistan is going for F-16s. After 5 years their won't be any room left for the upgradation of F-16C/D whereas F-16 MLU will already been upgraded and cannot be upgraded further. Why Pakistan is not going for JAS-39C Grippen, in which their is room for upgradation of aircraft as well SAAB has agreed to transfer the technology to Pakistan?

Ans. As i have mentioned earlier, latest upgradation, airborne equipment and weapon system can increase the lethality of the aircraft. New variants are certainly different from their older counterparts. As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth, we are not in a state of handle extremely high technology used in JAS-39 Grippen, as we don't have the bases of aerial technogy.

As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth,
I thought I would highlight the relevant parts of the statement. Now that is different from your assertion that because it takes a long time for a pilot to get truly familiar with a plane.
Transfer of technology would require having the ability to build and maintain part of the aircraft. (specifically electronics, engines and metallurgical skills). Now what this would mean is that the PAF could not operate it? NO it simply means that spare parts and tech support would have to be external until the support base could be increased.

This is TOTALLY different from your point that Pakistan cannot "handle" technology. It is merely asserting that PAK cannot handle the TOT yet. but that is down the civilian economy and development rather than a procurement issue.

For example I can drive a high performance sports car and after while be very good at doing it. It does not mean I can build a engine for it. that requires a different skill base.which is totally different to the ones I would possess.

 

[fatman17]

As far as transfer of technology is concerned, to tell you the truth,
I thought I would highlight the relevant parts of the statement. Now that is different from your assertion that because it takes a long time for a pilot to get truly familiar with a plane.
Transfer of technology would require having the ability to build and maintain part of the aircraft. (specifically electronics, engines and metallurgical skills). Now what this would mean is that the PAF could not operate it? NO it simply means that spare parts and tech support would have to be external until the support base could be increased.

This is TOTALLY different from your point that Pakistan cannot "handle" technology. It is merely asserting that PAK cannot handle the TOT yet. but that is down the civilian economy and development rather than a procurement issue.

For example I can drive a high performance sports car and after while be very good at doing it. It does not mean I can build a engine for it. that requires a different skill base.which is totally different to the ones I would possess.

Keys - Bullseye! . totally agree with your correct interpretation of the ACMs comments. operating/flying the a/c is one thing and maintenance of the technology are different things.