USS Mason encountered and neutralized 7 anti-ship cruise missiles in Yemeni waters in 2016

[Arsalan]

@The Deterrent @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Arsalan @The Eagle

What are the chances of our Zarb, Herba and C-802, The Coastal, The Ship Fired and the Air-Launched missiles to be easily picked by Barak-8 as it is as capable as the above examples and the indians ships as far as i know do carry radar and IR decoys !

I am not sure how accurate this info is! Not saying that they are telling a lie but may be this is the cruise missile they are talking about?

Though this is Syrian

I mean, what missiles were they? The quality of weapon system used in those strikes will give us a much more clear picture of the whole development. The information do not satisfies much. For example:

"On three separate dates in October 2016, the USS Mason (DDG-87), USS Nitze (DDG-94), USS San Antonio (LPD-17), and USS Ponce (AFSB-15) came under attack while operating off the western coast of Yemen, near the Strait of Bab-el-Mandeb. While all four ships were not always operating together as a group when the attacks took place, the Mason was present on 9, 12, and 15 October. In each case the Mason, positioned to respond in defense of the group and herself, fired salvos of Standard missiles, Evolved Sea Sparrow missiles, and electronic countermeasures."

Incident 1

"On Oct. 9, 2016, Mason’s radar detected two anti-ship cruise missiles launching 48 kilometres away from rebel-held areas of Yemen. They flew low over the water at about 1,100 kilometres an hour, and would reach the ship in just over two minutes."

A missile fired just 48km away? fine!

Incident 2

"A few days later, on Oct. 12, another cruise missile attacked Mason. It apparently was shot down 13 kilometres away, about 45 seconds before it would have struck."

---

"On October 12 Mason faced a single ASCM and intercepted it eight miles out."

13Km AWAY? did they used some boat to get this close to the US ships? Or were the US ships so close to the shore? Why?---

Plus, using SM-2 for these missiles? It have a range of 180 Km appx. For a threat being fired at such short range they have quick response short range defense systems.

Do not makes much sense to me.

 

[LeGenD]

@Arsalan

Yemeni rebels (i.e. Houthi) sported a massive inventory of missiles [of different types] prior to conflict with Saudi Arabia, thanks in part to deals with Soviet Union and Iran - a well-armed militia by all accounts. Just check the statistics of how many missiles Yemeni rebels have unloaded into Saudi Arabia since 2015, and what types.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile-war-yemen/
http://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/missile-threat-and-proliferation/missile-proliferation/yemen/
http://www.janes.com/images/assets/330/72330/Yemeni_rebels_enhance_ballistic_missile_campaign.pdf
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/...sile-saudi-arabia-riyadh-171104180946302.html

---

The cruise missile [in question here] was sophisticated enough to score a hit on a UAE-owned logistics ship [HSV-2 Swift] while on the move, in October 1, 2016:

- some days before USS Mason arrived and started patrolling Yemeni waters.

According to professional assessment, these cruise missiles are C-802 derivatives.

FYI: https://militaryedge.org/armaments/c-802yj-82css-n-8-saccade/

 

[gambit]

I don't think ASCMs are critical to Pakistan's AShW strategy. Yes, ASCMs will be used against ships - esp. intruding small ships that might attempt another Operation Trident - but the real AShW assets are Pakistan's submarines. If not that, then I guess the only other alternative is saturated strikes and supersonic-cruising ASCM.

Here is my take on that (highlighted)...

This is about pressure, as in where can you apply it and how much. If the enemy -- and am not saying anyone -- feels pressure (resistance) on where he can potentially attack you, that is the first step towards deterrence. When I was active duty, and the USAF has required professional military education (PME) for both officers and enlisted, our class spent a couple days discussing the concept of pressure. The geographically nearer a potential adversary, the greater the need to assess strategic pressure, how to create, and where to apply.

The US being protected by two great oceans experiences no strategic pressure. That give US the freedom to develop our ability and capability to export military pressure in ways no other countries could, and from that, the US understood strategic military pressure in ways different than other country in modern times could. The UK and assorted European countries no longer have their global outposts that creates the need for a constantly mobile military to back up foreign political maneuverings, whereas the US, as the default global 'policeman' that has 10 aircraft carrier fleets on duty at all time can exert strategic and tactical military pressure anywhere and anytime in the world.

A US aircraft carrier fleet at home port is delayed pressure. Countries know that even though the Seventh Fleet maybe vacationing on US soil, it will be only days that the fleet will be able to exert IMMEDIATE tactical military pressure anywhere the US want. Same idea for the USAF, US Army, or the USMC.

Submarines and anything flying exerts local tactical military pressure from the third dimension. The sub from below and the aircraft from above. A cruise missile is an aircraft. If you seek to deny an adversary access to a region, your method of denial must be credible. It cannot be perceived, as in the adversary thinks that you have. Instead, the adversary must KNOW that you have and you can. To 'know' something is to have certainty that is backed up by evidence(s), just like how countries know about the American carrier fleets even though they may have never met one before.

If you want to protect a region, you must be able to convince any potential adversary that you can exert tactical military pressure at the region at your leisure. From that position, you can be absent from that region and still have it free of invaders. A missile, be it a strategic ICBM or a tactical cruise missile, is a delayed pressure weapon. The best kind of tactical pressure is a constant military garrison, which you cannot afford that compelled you to develop missiles in the first place.

Range (distance) is a highly, if not most, desirable feature of the ability and capability of pressure. If a tank has a range of 100 km per day, that mean at any point on the surface, the tank can exert usable tactical military pressure from 0 to about 80 km, and wherever the tank rests, its ability to exert tactical military pressure is constant. On the other hand, while the aircraft's ability and capability to exert tactical military pressure on a region is temporary, its long reach over several hundreds km compels an adversary to reassess his short term tactics and long term strategies.

 

[The Deterrent]

@The Deterrent @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Arsalan @The Eagle

What are the chances of our Zarb, Herba and C-802, The Coastal, The Ship Fired and the Air-Launched missiles to be easily picked by Barak-8 as it is as capable as the above examples and the indians ships as far as i know do carry radar and IR decoys !

Barak-8 with Elta's radar is pretty capable, although not as good as Aegis as @Oscar mentioned. Pakistani AShMs (C-802, Harpoon, Exocet, Zarb, Harba) have low probable chances of successful strikes unless launched in high numbers simultaneously.

 

[SQ8]

Barak-8 with Elta's radar is pretty capable, although not as good as Aegis as @Oscar mentioned. Pakistani AShMs (C-802, Harpoon, Exocet, Zarb, Harba) have low probable chances of successful strikes unless launched in high numbers simultaneously.

Either high numbers or changing attack patterns. One way would be to use two different systems at once. Use a C-802 attack and a Exocet from different approaches ;two different signatures and flight profiles and then see the system react.

After all a missile was intercepted 8km out.. meaning the Aegis and SM-2 combination still had it cutting close.

The other is the element of surpirse, the sea state etc all things that effect both how the detection systems and sensors perform and how the crew reacts.

For eg when the Talwar came online only the most “green” highlighted officers and rating were chose to serve on it... put in a less experienced team lr a bad captain and even the venerable silkworm will put a hole in the ship.

Same result as putting a squadron of IPs or senior pilots against an average squadron versus a mix of experience and morale levels and the equipment disparity will be pushed back.

 

[The Deterrent]

Either high numbers or changing attack patterns. One way would be to use two different systems at once. Use a C-802 attack and a Exocet from different approaches ;two different signatures and flight profiles and then see the system react.

After all a missile was intercepted 8km out.. meaning the Aegis and SM-2 combination still had it cutting close.

The other is the element of surpirse, the sea state etc all things that effect both how the detection systems and sensors perform and how the crew reacts.

For eg when the Talwar came online only the most “green” highlighted officers and rating were chose to serve on it... put in a less experienced team lr a bad captain and even the venerable silkworm will put a hole in the ship.

Same result as putting a squadron of IPs or senior pilots against an average squadron versus a mix of experience and morale levels and the equipment disparity will be pushed back.

Agreed, operational conditions are not always ideal for any party. However as @gambit said, possession of these AShMs gives Pakistan the capability to mount pressure on IN in the Arabian Sea, even if their chances of success are lower.

 

[SQ8]

Agreed, operational conditions are not always ideal for any party. However as @gambit said, possession of these AShMs gives Pakistan the capability to mount pressure on IN in the Arabian Sea, even if their chances of success are lower.

One ship is a few hundred Souls.. that spectacle of it going down is morale wrecking.

 

[Mrc]

Simultaneous attack from top and bottom is impossible to stop.... no radar in world can track a super sonic top attack missile and a sub sonic skimmer simultaneously and engage both...

We need to add cm.400 akg... to jf17s...

Houtis have old silk worm varieties and most missiles were lured away by nulka counter measures ... USN is unsure how many were shot dowm

They do avknowledge that even this primitive system managed to penetrate and nulka was used in all incidences...


If any thing the guidance system needs to be able to detect real target and distinguish from counter measures...

Also there are several enhancements used by Chinese that shud be incorporated in indigenous missiles... like speed variations that on board computer can randomly reduce and increase speed with a final dash option... another variable... probably not accounted for by any current defence system (cm 400 akg able to do that)..


Plus brahmos is non stealth... nulka like system on own frigates can give them great advantage... as they know it's coming just
Need to deceive it ....

Studying on that note... Iranians seem to have incoorporated image identification so radar does not follow the wrong image...

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

But the primary weapon will be heavyweight torpedoes.

no torpedoes will be fired in any future conflict.

 

[randomradio]

Barak-8 with Elta's radar is pretty capable, although not as good as Aegis

Why? What makes the AEGIS better?

Plus brahmos is non stealth...

Stealth and radar horizon are not the same.

 

[SipahSalar]

ASW is one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult, aspect of naval warfare. For Pakistan, the goal isn't to chase Indian ships, but to deter Indian presence in Pakistan's EEZ. For India, imposing such a presence would require a very robust ASW presence. ASW aircraft could come under threat from PAF fighters (which is why a long-range platform is so necessary now), while surface ships will need to be wary of submarines.

Well put. The Falklands war would be the perfect example for it. Just one outdated Argentinian submarine was able to keep the entire British fleet at bay for a long time.

For most of the war, a lone Argentine diesel submarine, the San Luis, opposed the Royal Navy at sea. Not only did the San Luis return home unscratched by the more than two hundred antisubmarine munitions fired by British warships and helicopter, but it twice ambushed antisubmarine frigates. Had the weapons functioned as intended, the British victory might have been bought at a much higher cost.

 

[LeGenD]

Simultaneous attack from top and bottom is impossible to stop.... no radar in world can track a super sonic top attack missile and a sub sonic skimmer simultaneously and engage both...

In a network-centric battlefield environment, no feat is impossible. Watch and learn:

Aegis AN/SPY-1 radar system can detect, distinguish and track movement of over 100 targets in real-time [simultaneously] in 360 degree. It can also take cues from other systems in the vicinity to enrich its already formidable tracking capabilities.

In-fact, the latest Aegis AN/SPY-6 radar system is relatively more powerful and capable.

Equally important is the fact that an Arleigh Burke class destroyer is equipped with lot of firepower to tackle different kind of threats on its own:

https://whitefleet.net/2017/07/31/the-arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-ddg-51-an-in-depth-guide/
http://i.imgur.com/LGHI1ug.jpg

- and all of its systems are integrated:

The SOP of USN is to deploy a minimum of two Arleigh Burke class destroyers in an hostile environment to tackle a wide-range of threats, if need be.

Houtis have old silk worm varieties and most missiles were lured away by nulka counter measures ...

Houthi have obtained different kinds of cruise missiles from Iran and through black channels over the course of years.

They destroyed HSV-2 Swift of UAE with a C-802 derivative (refer to post # 17). Actual footage below.

Message was loud and clear that Yemeni waters are off-limits to vessels that are not welcome there.

http://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/m...days-missile-threat/non-state-actors/houthis/
http://jcpa.org/article/iran-naval-weapons-houthi-hands-threaten-freedom-navigation-red-sea/

They also tested a long range cruise missile in 2017; target was in UAE.

http://www.janes.com/article/76140/yemeni-rebels-claim-cruise-missile-attack-on-uae

USN is unsure how many were shot dowm

Is this a joke? They have [data] of these events.

They do avknowledge that even this primitive system managed to penetrate and nulka was used in all incidences...

I am sorry but did you go through the opening post of this thread?

USS Mason neutralized 7 cruise missiles in 3 different incidents when operating in Yemeni waters (4 of these in a single incident).

In the first incident, one cruise missile was taken out with an interceptor and another was lured away by Nulka.

In the second incident, one cruise missile was taken out with an interceptor.

In the third incident, 4 cruise missiles were taken out by a combination of interceptors and Nulka. During the course of this particular incident, another USN vessel took out a 5th cruise missile with an interceptor.

Nothing managed to penetrate defenses of USS Mason in Yemeni waters even when it was operating very close to the shore.

Arleigh Burke class destroyer is arguably the finest in existence. It has proven its mettle in Yemeni waters and in complex tests.

Now show me an example of a single destroyer neutralizing 7 cruise missiles in an hostile environment. There is none.

 

[Mrc]

In a network-centric battlefield environment, no feat is impossible. Watch and learn:

Aegis AN/SPY-1 radar system can detect, distinguish and track movement of over 100 targets in real-time [simultaneously] in 360 degree. It can also take cues from other systems in the vicinity to enrich its already formidable tracking capabilities.

In-fact, the latest Aegis AN/SPY-6 radar system is relatively more powerful and capable.

Equally important is the fact that an Arleigh Burke class destroyer is equipped with lot of firepower to tackle different kind of threats on its own:

https://whitefleet.net/2017/07/31/the-arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-ddg-51-an-in-depth-guide/
http://i.imgur.com/LGHI1ug.jpg

- and all of its systems are integrated:

The SOP of USN is to deploy a minimum of two Arleigh Burke class destroyers in an hostile environment to tackle a wide-range of threats, if need be.


Houthi have obtained different kinds of cruise missiles from Iran and through black channels over the course of years.

They destroyed HSV-2 Swift of UAE with a C-802 derivative (refer to post # 17). Actual footage below.

Message was loud and clear that Yemeni waters are off-limits to vessels that are not welcome there.

http://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/m...days-missile-threat/non-state-actors/houthis/
http://jcpa.org/article/iran-naval-weapons-houthi-hands-threaten-freedom-navigation-red-sea/

They also tested a long range cruise missile in 2017; target was in UAE.

http://www.janes.com/article/76140/yemeni-rebels-claim-cruise-missile-attack-on-uae


Is this a joke? They have [data] of these events.


I am sorry but did you go through the opening post of this thread?

USS Mason neutralized 7 cruise missiles in 3 different incidents when operating in Yemeni waters (4 of these in a single incident).

In the first incident, one cruise missile was taken out with an interceptor and another was lured away by Nulka.

In the second incident, one cruise missile was taken out with an interceptor.

In the third incident, 4 cruise missiles were taken out by a combination of interceptors and Nulka. During the course of this particular incident, another USN vessel took out a 5th cruise missile with an interceptor.

Nothing managed to penetrate defenses of USS Mason in Yemeni waters even when it was operating very close to the shore.

Arleigh Burke class destroyer is arguably the finest in existence. It has proven its mettle in Yemeni waters and in complex tests.

Now show me an example of a single destroyer neutralizing 7 cruise missiles in an hostile environment. There is none.

You are the real deal aren't you....

Third class analysis

U think houthis can manage a modern day missile??? Idiot or pretending to be???

Let me guess....

 

[LeGenD]

You are the real deal aren't you....

Third class analysis

U think houthis can manage a modern day missile??? Idiot or pretending to be???

Let me guess....

Looks like my rebuttal struck a nerve.

Houthi have acquired different types of missiles from other countries and through black channels over the course of years. They also have engineers to experiment with and improve missiles in their inventory. Iran might also be providing technical know-how through unofficial channels.

Food for thought:

https://www.longwarjournal.org/arch...een-houthi-and-iranian-ballistic-missiles.php
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/08...udi-arabia-human-rights-blockade-white-house/
https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/yemen/index.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...saudi-arabia-appear-iranian-u-n-idUSKBN1DU36N
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/missiles-remain-potent-houthi-weapon

Do not underestimate the ingenuity of modern-era militias.

1. TTP was capable of contending with Pakistan Army for years in-spite of the fact that US was employing drones to soften its resistance to Pakistan Army over the course of this conflict.

2. Afghani militias were able to utilize Soviet weaponry ranging from Tanks to Jets in a conflict.

3. ISIS demonstrated the capability and capacity to occupy an entire country and subjugated many settlements in the process. Its combat prowess and ability to draw recruits from across the world took many by surprise.

4. Houthi put up a fight against Saudi-led coalition for years, and have demonstrated the capability to strike at cities, military bases and even naval assets [in motion] from significant distances.

 

[Mrc]

1. TTP was well-armed and capable of contending with Pakistan Army for years, and US was employing drones to soften its resistance to Pakistan Army.

I will let some one else to answere you.. especially ttp and drone part...

But I must say one thing... u are not here to learn ... u THINK u know all... just want to convince the rest of your perceived reality... Brest of luck