US, UK, Russia, Poland, Turkey, Saudi Arabia are approaching PAF for experience

[Windjammer]

WE had bought into Indian HYPE of Russian jets. PAF busted this Indian HYPE on 27-02-19 with battle tactics similar to that of USAF in the Persian Gulf War (1991). But this was also a limited engagement scenario so WE do not know for sure what would be the situation in an all-out engagement capacity.

USAF achieved multiple BVR kills back in the Persian Gulf War (1991), and against some of the most capable Russian and French combat aircraft of the time in Iraqi hands. And Iraqi were a battle-hardened force.

FYI: https://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aakill/By Range/

India enjoy numerical superiority over Pakistan but not in terms of equipment in every spectrum of warfare. PAF was always better than IAF as far as I remember.

Pit USAF against IAF today, and USAF will steamroll much of IAF without breaking a sweat. Heck, USAF will steamroll any Air Force out there - qualitative and quantitative disparity is too vast.

Now let's see ....you admit USAF will steam roll any airforce.....so what price the Iraqis.
And you claim PAF to be better equipped than IAF....how did you conclude that when we only have or had the battle tested F-16 backed up by JF-17s....while India fielded....SU-30...M2K...MiG-29s.
The bottom line is..Americans and others may have shot down plenty of MiGs and others....but not Russia's top tier air superiority jet....that's what the PAF has achieved even when the enemy was fully alert and expecting....not too difficult to understand.

 

[aliyusuf]

Great going, bro.

When you are unable to address points on merit, you resort to trolling and blame others for not being mature in the exchange. Syndrome of self-delusion.

This thread have been a good chapter of exposing preconceived notions and misconceptions. I enjoyed popping some bubbles here.

I would contest them if the merits were worthwhile and not so trivial. Efficacy of military hardware greatly depend on the proficiency and caliber of the user. So such discussions are generally based on premise which are moot. So no point on engaging something that is not going to yield any result. So that is why I am disengaging from a rather growingly unpleasant and futile discussion.

As for your popping bubbles shows a lot about your mindset bringing in T-80 in a discussion of MiG-29. You were wrong when you suggested that Iraq had MiG-29K in 1991. BTW T-80 is a pretty good tank. PA also has T-80UD.

But again this is not heading anywhere. Hence I tried disengage pleasantly.

 

[LeGenD]

Now let's see ....you admit USAF will steam roll any airforce.....so what price the Iraqis.
And you claim PAF to be better equipped than IAF....how did you conclude that when we only have or had the battle tested F-16 backed up by JF-17s....while India fielded....SU-30...M2K...MiG-29s.
The bottom line is..Americans and others may have shot down plenty of MiGs and others....but not Russia's top tier air superiority jet....that's what the PAF has achieved even when the enemy was fully alert and expecting....not too difficult to understand.

Bro,

Indian armed forces have numerous (qualitative) loopholes which might not be apparent in THEORY but would be apparent to those in the knowhow deep down. Now, I do not claim to be an insider in this matter but I know some people, and having exposure to global IT sector even at SME level was a very revealing experience to me in life. I do have a grasp of technological basics and my take is that both Russians and Chinese are far behind USA in crucial technology-related matters. These shortcomings are very likely to have a trickle-down effect on both consumer-level and defense applications. Contrary to popular belief, consumer-level goods are frighteningly high-tech as of late. If you are in the business of constructing modern high-end PC systems, you will realize at what pace technological advances are happening as of late and military forces around the world usually find themselves in [catching up] phase with these advances. This is why few people in the world can keep up with these advances at a personal level - very very expensive endeavor. There is no such thing as super-duper martian alien technologies in use in military applications - just exceptional level of secrecy in terms of experiments behind-the-scenes.

Coming back to the main point:

Indian members in different forums are to blame for OVER-HYPING Su-30 MKI beyond measure through the years and some were going as far as to declare this combat aircraft as the Raptor of the EAST. I was skeptical all these years - not just now. Dig my posting history in PDF and you will uncover my history of heated exchanges with Indian members here vis-a-vis core competency of their much hyped weapon systems.

Following revelation: https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...es-problems-despite-russian-spare-parts-deal/

- is from a retired Indian Air Force official. I am surprised that his complaints about Su-30 MKI having problems fell on deaf ears.

So how all of the above is relevant to the discourse about 27-02-19?

Very much.

Su-30 MKI have reliability problems would affect its performance in actual combat situations. This isn't to say that every Su-30 MKI unit will underperform in a combat situation 24/7 basis.

F-16 MLU are Block 40 level in American terms, and a match for (any) combat aircraft in Indian Air Force inventory at this stage. F-16 Block 52+ are superior to any combat aircraft in Indian Air Force inventory with the exception of French Rafale F3R variant in Indian hands although these are too few in numbers to make difference as of present. Key to this superiority is in the quality of American avionics (electronic components) and munitions since the 1980s.

Equipment being good notwithstanding, another crucial factor is TACTICAL BRILLIANCE. I was one of the first members on PDF to touch on this part: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...ile-will-replace-f16-as-top-jet.610973/page-9

- I noticed similarities in this battlefield mode of execution by PAF and that of USAF in 1991 against Iraqi Air Force.

I also exposed Indian web of lies on PDF in this thread: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/no-evidence-of-the-loss-of-an-f-16.618802/

My assertions in this thread are grounded in a deeper (academic) understanding of these matters. Persian Gulf War (1991) is among the most revealing about a great many realities that do not receive much attention on the surface. This was a WAR in which brilliance of tactics played an equally important role in influencing its outcome. First BVR kills were also recorded in 1991, and at unexpected ranges, versus some of the best French and Russian aircraft of the time.

Unfortunately, all I saw in this thread are juvenile statements/assertions from select members who refuse to learn.

 

[Beny Karachun]

If your claim is true,
Then was it possible, PAF had shot down both air force jets in conflicts.
Like shooting Israeli jets in 1967 and 73 wars with zero lost on PAF pilots side and against russian in afghan war. We had shot down several Soviet and afghan jets with soviet pilots with zero loss on PAF side.

You wish

 

[Windjammer]

You wish

I will grant you a few.

PAKISTAN
Middle East Conflicts
NAME VICTORIES AIRFORCE COMMENTS

Azam, Saiful 3 RJAF, IrAF +1 during India-Pakistan War
Alvi, Sattar 1 SyAF

U ... Unconfirmed
Air-to-Air Victories

Date Unit Aircraft Pilot Victim e/a Pilot Country
5Jun67 1 Sqn RJAF Hunter F.Mk.73 S. Azam Mystére IVA (94) M. Bula IDF/AF
7Jun67 4/7 Sqn IrAF Hunter F.Mk.59
("702") S. Azam Mirage IIICJ G. Dror IDF/AF
7Jun67 4/7 Sqn IrAF Hunter F.Mk.59
("702") S. Azam Vautour II (65) S. Keren/A. Inbar-Meltzer IDF/AF
26Apr74 67 Sqn SyAF MiG-21F-13 S. Alvi Mirage IIICJ M.Lutz No.5 Air Wing
IDF/AF

http://www.aviationgraphic.com/sparta/

Hawker Hunter F.Mk.59, No.29 Squadron. Habbaniya AB, Al Quwwat al-Jawwiya al-Iraqiya (Iraqi Air Force, القوات الجوية العراقية), 7 June 1967

Following the successful interception of the third Israeli air raid on H-3 airfield, on the morning of 7 June 1967, the IrAF Hunter “570” was decorated with two kill markings for two Israeli fighters a Mirage and a Vautour shot down by the Pakistani pilot Flt.Lt. Saif-ul-Azam. Somewhat unusually, the kill markings together with appropriate inscription about Azam's achievements have been applied on the right side of front fuselage, bellow the cockpit. The aircraft continued to serve with the IrAF well into the 1970s, when it has had the nose and fin painted in red, and was flown by a display team of the IrAF Flying Leaders School. It was retired from service in the late 1980s, at Habbaniyah AB, but its airframe still exists at the dump of that airfield.


http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/pakistan-middle.html

 

[Beny Karachun]

I will grant you a few.

PAKISTAN
Middle East Conflicts
NAME VICTORIES AIRFORCE COMMENTS

Azam, Saiful 3 RJAF, IrAF +1 during India-Pakistan War
Alvi, Sattar 1 SyAF

U ... Unconfirmed
Air-to-Air Victories

Date Unit Aircraft Pilot Victim e/a Pilot Country
5Jun67 1 Sqn RJAF Hunter F.Mk.73 S. Azam Mystére IVA (94) M. Bula IDF/AF
7Jun67 4/7 Sqn IrAF Hunter F.Mk.59
("702") S. Azam Mirage IIICJ G. Dror IDF/AF
7Jun67 4/7 Sqn IrAF Hunter F.Mk.59
("702") S. Azam Vautour II (65) S. Keren/A. Inbar-Meltzer IDF/AF
26Apr74 67 Sqn SyAF MiG-21F-13 S. Alvi Mirage IIICJ M.Lutz No.5 Air Wing
IDF/AF

http://www.aviationgraphic.com/sparta/

Hawker Hunter F.Mk.59, No.29 Squadron. Habbaniya AB, Al Quwwat al-Jawwiya al-Iraqiya (Iraqi Air Force, القوات الجوية العراقية), 7 June 1967

Following the successful interception of the third Israeli air raid on H-3 airfield, on the morning of 7 June 1967, the IrAF Hunter “570” was decorated with two kill markings for two Israeli fighters a Mirage and a Vautour shot down by the Pakistani pilot Flt.Lt. Saif-ul-Azam. Somewhat unusually, the kill markings together with appropriate inscription about Azam's achievements have been applied on the right side of front fuselage, bellow the cockpit. The aircraft continued to serve with the IrAF well into the 1970s, when it has had the nose and fin painted in red, and was flown by a display team of the IrAF Flying Leaders School. It was retired from service in the late 1980s, at Habbaniyah AB, but its airframe still exists at the dump of that airfield.


http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/pakistan-middle.html

Unconfirmed at best.

 

[Raider 21]

Unconfirmed at best.

Or denied at best

 

[GriffinsRule]

Unconfirmed at best.

Why don't you go ahead and get the confirmation from IDF.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Or denied at best

Denied is also a viable word.

 

[Windjammer]

Unconfirmed at best.

I wonder why would, Jordanian, Iraqi and Syrian airforces need to acknowledge and award PAF pilots when they could have claimed this for themselves.
BTW, M.Lutz coverall is sitting in the PAF museum.

 

[Beny Karachun]

There's only one confirmed kill that checks out with the official list of the Israeli pilots that were downed and killed, made by a man called Saiful Azam, claiming that ten or more were shot down is both unverifiable and false.

Don't forget you guys reported that your airforces shot down more Israeli aircraft than what we had in service, and that Egyptian tanks were on the outskirts of Tel Aviv, so I wouldn't call your forces credible.

Your pilots didn't have any Pakistani markings, who knows, maybe one of the hundreds of the aircraft Israel shot down was flown by a Pakistani pilot that we all even forgot he exists.

Even if Pakistan pilots did shot down some of our jets, what makes them any better than Arab pilots that shot down our jets? Or our aces of aces, that set up world records? We had casualties, we never deny them. I can't say the same about our enemies at the time.

 

[GriffinsRule]

There's only one confirmed kill that checks out with the official list of the Israeli pilots that were downed and killed, made by a man called Saiful Azam, claiming that ten or more were shot down is both unverifiable and false.

Don't forget you guys reported that your airforces shot down more Israeli aircraft than what we had in service, and that Egyptian tanks were on the outskirts of Tel Aviv, so I wouldn't call your forces credible.

Your pilots didn't have any Pakistani markings, who knows, maybe one of the hundreds of the aircraft Israel shot down was flown by a Pakistani pilot that we all even forgot he exists.

Even if Pakistan pilots did shot down some of our jets, what makes them any better than Arab pilots that shot down our jets? Or our aces of aces, that set up world records? We had casualties, we never deny them. I can't say the same about our enemies at the time.

Talk about unverified claims ... prove any PAF pilot was indeed shot down by IAF first. We know we shot down a handful of your aircraft, given that we only had a handful of IPs in those countries. Its all well documented. Don't need you to believe it to make it factual.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Talk about unverified claims ... prove any PAF pilot was indeed shot down by IAF first. We know we shot down a handful of your aircraft, given that we only had a handful of IPs in those countries. Its all well documented. Don't need you to believe it to make it factual.

I never said we did, I said we might as well did.
It's our word against yours, and your pilots had no identifying marks. Believe whatever you want, frankly I don't care because it's irrelevant.

 

[jay d]

I never said we did, I said we might as well did.
It's our word against yours, and your pilots had no identifying marks. Believe whatever you want, frankly I don't care because it's irrelevant.

Frankly get moving ! What ever shit-show is relevant to you is insignificant to us .

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Frankly get moving ! What ever shit-show is relevant to you is insignificant to us .

please remain civil and respectful.

there are better ways to disagree.