US-Pakistan Relations - Do we really need each other ?

[I.R.A]

Learning the art how to deal with them is more important rather than we need each other or not, we need to understand them to make them understand our importance. And

dealing with them this way deserves the treatment they are giving us.

 

[plutonium96]

Doesn't a rookie asking for a veteran valueable comments matter sir.!!!!?
Anyways I can understand ur point.
Regards

 

[Pakistanisage]

Pakistan needs to have friendly relations with ALL the Nations of the UNIVERSE.

 

[Dalit]

Learning the art how to deal with them is more important rather than we need each other or not, we need to understand them to make them understand our importance. And

dealing with them this way deserves the treatment they are giving us.

The trouble is, we cannot convince or make the Americans understand our importance. The Americans have already made up their mind. We are failing to understand that. They want to contain China. They don't appreciate Pakistan's economic and military alliance with China. The US has also defined Pakistan's role. They seek to confiscate Pakistan's nuke assets. They also want to keep Pakistan submissive to India. These are their main objectives and they don't conceal them from anyone.

Can we comply with these demands? If we can, the Americans are willing to have a "good" relation with Pakistan.

 

[I.R.A]

The trouble is, we cannot convince or make the Americans understand our importance. The Americans have already made up their mind. We are failing to understand that. They want to contain China. They don't appreciate Pakistan's economic and military alliance with China. The US has also defined Pakistan's role. They seek to confiscate Pakistan's nuke assets. They also want to keep Pakistan submissive to India. These are their main objectives and they don't conceal them from anyone.

Can we comply with these demands? If we can, the Americans are willing to have a "good" relation with Pakistan.

It is not their fault if our relation with them was more focused on "Individual interests" than "National Interests", who in his senses respects a whore that can be hired for peanuts. They may have made up their mind because they have been dealing with self serving idiots from our side, spineless beggars don't get heard.

 

[Dalit]

It is not their fault if our relation with them was more focused on "Individual interests" than "National Interests", who in his senses respects a whore that can be hired for peanuts. They may have made up their mind because they have been dealing with self serving idiots from our side, spineless beggars don't get heard.

We made our fair share of mistakes and so did the Americans. Both the US and Pakistan have acted inappropriately. Both these nations are today reaping what they have sown in the past.

You accuse Pakistan of having made "individual interests" although I interpret them as quite the opposite. Whether these decisions have turned out bad is an entirely different topic.

What you term as "whoring" was back then possibly need of the hour. Sometimes nations are forced to make irrational decisions. Don't try to convince me that other nations don't "whore" for their interests which also includes the United States of America.

Besides, what makes you think that nations making immoral decisions based on "national interest" are righteous in their pursuit? Does this somehow make it morally correct? I'm curious.

Having said that, US demands from Pakistan are inappropriate. Pakistan won't give up its nuclear weapons unless India does so. Pakistan won't be subservient to India because it is a sovereign nation. Pakistan won't give up its economic and military relations with China because this serves our national interest.

The Americans will have to deal with these truths and decide whether they want to have any relation with Pakistan.

Pakistan doesn't have to make the Americans understand our importance as you have suggested. It is up to the Americans to take it or leave it as it is. Pakistanis also don't interfere nor demand from the Americans to act according to our wishes vis a vis their interests or relations with other countries.

 

[barbarosa]

Learning the art how to deal with them is more important rather than we need each other or not, we need to understand them to make them understand our importance. And

dealing with them this way deserves the treatment they are giving us.

Our Prime minister has no political vision, What is Mr. Obama thought about us?. Our Prime Minister is reading a written policies of our country.

 

[I.R.A]

We made our fair share of mistakes and so did the Americans. Both the US and Pakistan have acted inappropriately. Both these nations are today reaping what they have sown in the past.

What you term as "whoring" was back then possibly need of the hour. Sometimes nations are forced to make irrational decisions.

Having said that, US demands from Pakistan are inappropriate. Pakistan won't give up its nuclear weapons unless India does so. Pakistan won't be subservient to India because it is a sovereign nation. Pakistan won't give up its economic and military relations with China because this serves our national interest.

The Americans will have to deal with these truths and decide whether they want to have any relation with Pakistan.

Pakistan doesn't have to make the Americans understand our importance as you have suggested. It is up to the Americans to take it or leave it as it is. Pakistanis also don't interfere nor demand from the Americans to act differently vis a vis their interests or relations with other countries.

I think Americans are quite rational people and they know what they are doing and why they are doing, we made them treat us this way it is not their fault, if we had respected ourselves and our country I am sure their treatment of us would have been different. For me I think we brought them to this point where they can make any demand appropriate or inappropriate, because they know our real worth.

You don't invite president of a powerful country to visit your country just for to taste nihari paay and aloo qeema, you tell him what is in it for his country, you don't read from paper in front of them you look into their eyes and tell them the truth and let them know how you feel about it and what are consequences. Again we are confused .............. they are clear and for our confusion I won't blame them.

Our Prime minister has no political vision, What is Mr. Obama thought about us?. Our Prime Minister is reading a written policies of our country.

That paper had no written policy on it, it was menu of food that NS offered Obama to taste if he visits Pakistan.

 

[Dalit]

I think Americans are quite rational people and they know what they are doing and why they are doing, we made them treat us this way it is not their fault, if we had respected ourselves and our country I am sure their treatment of us would have been different. For me I think we brought them to this point where they can make any demand appropriate or inappropriate, because they know our real worth.

You don't invite president of a powerful country to visit your country just for to taste nihari paay and aloo qeema, you tell him what is in it for his country, you don't read from paper in front of them you look into their eyes and tell them the truth and let them know how you feel about it and what are consequences. Again we are confused .............. they are clear and for our confusion I won't blame them.



That paper had no written policy on it, it was menu of food that NS offered Obama to taste if he visits Pakistan.

You are not answering my questions.

Should Pakistan comply with their unreasonable demands such as giving up the nuclear arsenal, giving up relations with China and being submissive to India? I'm curious.

Trust me, we are not confused when we say that we won't comply to these unreasonable demands. If this isn't protecting your national interests I don't know what is.

Americans are supposedly "rational" when it serves their interests. Aren't these the same "rational" Americans which had no problems creating and supporting Jihadi groups to fight during the Cold War against Russia? What happened to rationality there? Yet, they have the audacity to accuse others of a cardinal sin when they resort to similar tactics. Aren't these the same "rational" Americans blatantly supporting and arming rebel groups in the Middle East to overthrow regimes? Let me guess, this is all rational and appropriate because the Americans are doing it.

The Americans would have never respected Pakistan in any case. Simply because you chose to become a nuclear power and you are an Islamic nation (at least on paper). These two combinations don't go together as per American logic. No matter what, the Americans would have always hated Pakistan for this reason alone. Let's not even get into other details.

You need to stop being apologetic, yet own up to your mistakes. Try to find a fair balance in between.

 

[I.R.A]

You are not answering my questions.

Should we comply with their unreasonable demands such as giving up our nuclear arsenal, giving up our relations with China and being submissive to India? I'm curious.

No................... we should not comply with anyone's unreasonable demand China, Saudis, Americans or anyone else.................... but what I am trying to say is how you tell this to Americans? That matters, what you say does not matter that much but how you say it..... that matters.

We are not confused when we say that we won't comply to these unreasonable demands.

Americans are supposedly "rational" when it serves their interests. Aren't these the same "rational" Americans which had no problems creating Jihadi groups to fight during the Cold War against Russia? What happened to rationality there? Aren't these the same "rational" Americans supporting and arming rebel groups in the Middle East to overthrow regimes?

About National interests as I said they are clear about their's ............. it's us who are confused. It has been our habit to be darling of only one as if having friendship with all was a matter of strict mehram and na mehram for us, now we think USA is namehram and China is Mehram.

America is a powerhouse the sheriff of town, they do it because they have the ability to do it, we don't have the power but we enjoy being in the right place every time, but do we sell our position properly for our National Interests? Let alone selling it properly do we even have the will to lookout for our National Interests. Heck I don't even know what our national interests are and I am debating about those with you.

 

[Dalit]

No................... we should not comply with anyone's unreasonable demand China, Saudis, Americans or anyone else.................... but what I am trying to say is how you tell this to Americans? That matters, what you say does not matter that much but how you say it..... that matters.

About National interests as I said they are clear about their's ............. it's us who are confused. It has been our habit to be darling of only one as if having friendship with all was a matter of strict mehram and na mehram for us, now we think USA is namehram and China is Mehram.

America is a powerhouse the sheriff of town, they do it because they have the ability to do it, we don't have the power but we enjoy being in the right place every time, but do we sell our position properly for our National Interests? Let alone selling it properly do we even have the will to lookout for our National Interests. Heck I don't even know what our national interests are and I am debating about those with you.

Exactly and that proves my point. The Americans are making unreasonable demands and we won't accept them. Period.

I've already explained to you that we have no obligation to make them understand anything. They can take it or leave it. We shouldn't force them to understand our point of view because they are going to do the opposite anyway. India is their ally and US foreign policy regarding South Asia is largely dictated by this country. Besides, they aren't toddlers and already know our position. The Americans consider Pakistan a thorn by definition. American intentions go much beyond Pakistan. They are looking to curtail China in every way possible. They have already made their decision and we have made ours. You can try your level best to convince them though which won't make any difference.

We have to strike a balance as far as relations with other nations is concerned. We shouldn't become a satellite or proxy nation for other powers. It is as simple as that. We have to be able to look nations right in the eye and tell them where we stand. They are free to take it or leave it.

We don't give a crap about the US being a powerhouse sheriff or cowboy of this world. We have to look at our own supreme national interests. That is all that matters. We won't bow down just because a bully demands so. Just look at the Iranians today. They stood their ground and the sanctions are lifted. Wasn't this nation part of the axis of evil not so long ago?

Our national interests are just like any other country. We want economic security and stability. We can achieve these goals by aligning ourselves with China and other friendly countries around the world. We don't want war, but we won't be blackmailed. There is nothing to be confused here.

 

[I.R.A]

We have to strike a balance as far as relations with other nations is concerned. We shouldn't become a satellite or proxy nation for other powers.

Okay fine first try achieving this and we will worry about the rest later.

If it was me I won't repeat the same mistake again, i.e. only China is mehram and all other should wait in line. Having relations and being totally dependent on others are two different things by the way, your bringing in China again and again to the discussion table makes me feel we are going to repeat the mistake. If America wants to curtail China why should it be our headache? We can show our support to them but we should not make it our cause to protect them.

 

[544_delta]

what we need is the tactics , strategy and guile in our leaders, to deal with any nation, and the understanding that there is no brotherly,fatherly,sisterly relations between nations....its all about one's own interest ...

 

[WAJsal]

It all Started on 20th October 1947, 2 months and 6 days after Islamic Republic of Pakistan gets its Independent from a Colonization Power United Kingdom, the Time when Pakistan Start to look towards the So called Free world in order Dig its feet in ground to hold a mighty enemy India , the First war between India and Pakistan Proves that these countries will not be having peace anytime soon . The British play their Cards very well, leaving the Kashmir Dispute between Two nation .. and keep the flames of Fire alive in the South Asian Region which is burning the lives of two countries till now .

US has quickly Understand that Pakistan can easily be used as a Pawn for US, a Place to spy of USSR , establishing base for any future Conflict between two Super Powers of that time . Pakistan-Unites States relationship from the beginning was all about National Interest, in which Pakistan never see or understand its own interest . As the rewards for Pakistan to play its role against he Communist USSR , Pakistan was offered to become CENTO and SEATO member, and US back us up for that .

Pakistan as a young nation still trying to learn the game between Regional and World powers , but yet we put our eggs in US basket which later proved to be worse Idea . Pakistan as a honest ally for US played a Vital role to bring US and Rising Power China closer in 1972, despite the Fact the US has abandoned us in 1971 War with India which led to the creation of a new Country called " Bangladesh " . Pakistan's blind trust on America and its Aid and help and continuous support for every Dictator taking Power in Pakistan. The Pakistani's once again betrayed by this so called Ally in 1980's when Pakistan push its nose into a Conflict between Two Super Power for Afghanistan . Pakistan was chosen by the US to do the Dirty work of Training and Arming Mujaheen Fighters, by poisoning them with the Ideology of Jihad and holy war Against a Communist Regime , What Pakistan Get in return ? A lollipop for Few F-16's and some Million Dollars . but again our Policy makers failed to see what's coming next , and they keep a blind eye on the rising trend of the Extremist and Fundamental Pakistan .

The next Gift Pakistan was given when in 1998 Pakistan's eternal Enemy India detonate its Nuclear Bomb ringing the bells of a future Nuclear war in the region . Disputes like Kashmir which cause 3 War's between Two nations was still un-solved , Pakistan-India has fought 3 Conventional wars in which the Results were mostly Neutral except 1971 in which our Allies did not have our back. but USSR proved to be a more Reliable ally than US which send its Nuclear Sub to Block Karachi Port . but in retaliation for Indian Bomb Pakistan was forced to Detonate its own Nuclear Bomb in order to keep the Power Balance in the region . and Pakistan was Gift by the same Old ally with sanctions which not just Destroy the Pakistan's Economy but also Set back Pakistan's Conventional Capabilities to 70's era .

In the next decade something happened that will change the entire fate of Pakistan-US relations . A terror incident that shake the world upside down , some Arabs Terrorist hit World Trade Center in US with two Hijacked Planes , and crashing One Plane on the Front side of Pentagon killing almost 3000 American Citizen . This incident was called the worst attack on US soil after Pearl harbor attack by Imperial Japan . After the 9/11 the US and world reach to its blowing point to take Action against the Al-Qaeda Terrorist who takes responsibility for the Attacks, what should we call it ? a con-incidence or a Pre-Planned move that AQ leadership and Fighters flee to Afghanistan neighboring Pakistan that leads US and Allied Coalition ( NATO ) to attack Afghanistan with whatever they have except Nuclear Weapons . The so Called Ally Pakistan , who was completely shocked , scared by the possible fallout was given no choice except for " Either you are with us or Against us " , and Pakistan who consider itself an Ally of US was pushed in to the eternal battle of War on Terror . Pakistani Police makers and Establishments who always consider them to be like the one student in class who sits quite but still consider one of the smartest kid .


To be Continued ....

@Slav Defence @Horus @Irfan Baloch @WAJsal @Oscar @Abu Zolfiqar @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox
you can put your input ... and also point out any mistakes .

Forgot many key point. US warned Pakistan not to attack India in 1962, Ayub Khan always perceived the US to be an ally while it only used us for it's needs, you know the toilet paper example. We had CENTO and SEATO agreements with the US, when we needed the US in 1965, instead of helping us it put sanctions on us and was supplying weapons to India(documented proof present).
Instead of learning from '65 we continued the search for their support and 1971 was a same experience; we still didn't learn anything from past two experience. The lesson is quite clear, the US only seeks to get what it wants, worst part is we play the role they want us to play. We have established close ties with China, and overtime we should ease up with Russia. US will move closer to India.
@niaz , might have more information on the topic and can present a better analysis of the situation.
regards

 

[Paksanity]

We need to realize the power of good diplomacy. Our diplomatic strength plummeted after 2008. Just look who was appointed ambassador to US by Zardari? We don't even have a foreign minister in present government. Nawaz Sharif as foreign minister? I would rather die.

I'm also appalled by our nation's attitude of swinging to extremes on foreign policy matters. Why we either have to be closest ally or the most bitter rivals of US? This is not diplomacy. This is no foreign policy. This is sheer stupidity. US is the most powerful nation on the face of earth right now. Deal with it. Understand how US works. Deploy your best diplomats. Put them at ease by communication and mutual understanding. Diplomacy is a very powerful tool. Learn to use it. If you play smart diplomacy there will be no unreasonable demands. Because our diplomats have already sorted out the problem before it went public. You don't have to be anyone's rival. You don't have to compromise on your core interests either. You just employ a very strong diplomatic corps something we are yet to see post 2008.