US & Pakistan Dispute and Tensions over Haqqani group

[SQ8]

Santro, it is all fine to have links and yes, the links do help a lot in peace process. The US too may have links with Taliban. The problem occurs when the group goes out and attacks others, as happened in Kabul.

That is to be expected when you are targeting its members..
There is no co-ordination between the US and Pakistan on whats to be done.. as there is no common goal.
Otherwise the problem could have solved back in the last decade... and Afghanistan would be well on its way to recovery.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

hey taliban and haqqani groups, u naughty guys don't go and attack occupational forces and stay where u r and get destroyed by u.s OK

TARIQ

 

[iPhone]

ISI have nothing of substance such as what you hope. Mullen's words are correct.

---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------



So you have no confidence i the Pakistan army? Is it really a powder and puff army ? If yes, then lets be rid of it, honestly, if the pakistan army in your estimation will not protect Pakistan, why do we need it then??

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Good question!

Thousands of Pakistani soldiers martyrd fighting terrorists, thousands deployed on the remote fronts fighting terrorists as we speak - on remote mountains cut-off my miles from their bases, they have check points which are ambushed regularly. There is no no way to measure such men's bravery who "choose" to be in such position for their nation. And this is the thanks they get from this this thanks lot. There is no use bringing in the shame word so I'll say this, bai-adeb, bai-muraad.

 

[araz]

Khan Sahib: First of all, let's review what Realpolitik means:



So, when the showdown really starts, it is exactly Realpolitiks at play.



There you go again my dear Sir: Notions of living or dying "honorably" or facing the "fight like a man" simply do not apply here. The issue is not one of perceived verbosity, but rather more an issue of a totally different mindset, that hampers your understanding of my carefully articulated points.

BTW, the "YOUR" is not meant to be directed at you personally, but rather at the mindset of the so-called "thinking elite" on PDF as observed by me over the last year or so. The mindset is shockingly out of touch with reality. I hope that this is simply put and not verbose.

Having said that, I do not really need to take up whether the recent past has shown clearly who has chickened out and who has not, do I?




The complying or the consequences are coming relatively soon.

Vcheng
I asked a very simple question. Why are you getting agitated. If I have not had the foresight or the necessary mind set to understand your carefully articulated verbosity, perhaps you would like to enlighten me. I just want to know where you stand. You have talked again and again about a mindset that I do not have( a perception on your part!!). But explain to all of us what this mindset is? Perhaps we would all be better off learning from you( the sentiments behind the sentence are genuine!) Believe me I have not taken offence at any of your post but genuinely want to learn. Educate me, and let our combined ot of touch mind set be enlightened by your in touch thoughts!!!
Araz

 

[VCheng]

Thousands of Pakistani soldiers martyrd fighting terrorists, thousands deployed on the remote fronts fighting terrorists as we speak - on remote mountains cut-off my miles from their bases, they have check points which are ambushed regularly. There is no no way to measure such men's bravery who "choose" to be in such position for their nation. And this is the thanks they get from this this thanks lot. There is no use bringing in the shame word so I'll say this, bai-adeb, bai-muraad.

I have nothing but admiration for the brave soldiers who carry out their orders at great and even the ultimate cost.

However, my comments are correct for the Army as whole, given the shenanigans and failures of its leadership.

 

[VCheng]

Vcheng
I asked a very simple question. Why are you getting agitated. If I have not had the foresight or the necessary mind set to understand your carefully articulated verbosity, perhaps you would like to enlighten me. I just want to know where you stand. You have talked again and again about a mindset that I do not have( a perception on your part!!). But explain to all of us what this mindset is? Perhaps we would all be better off learning from you( the sentiments behind the sentence are genuine!) Believe me I have not taken offence at any of your post but genuinely want to learn. Educate me, and let our combined ot of touch mind set be enlightened by your in touch thoughts!!!
Araz

First of all, my apparent "agitation" is mere misconception on your part. I may be passionate about the topics that I participate in, but always calmly and with a sense of humor where appropriate.

Secondly, I do appreciate your desire to communicate so that we are able to learn from each other.

This is precisely what I have tried to do, but failed recently due to unaminous stand by members of the Think Tank. That unanimity speaks volumes about the fossilized mindset that prevails.

Moving past that, as we participate in discussions here, mutual understanding can only increase.

 

[Jango]

Oh man, did really ISI attack the Kabul base, and the Haqqani's went from NW to Kabul without being tracked? My salute to them, the cunning plan, and laugh at the US security , that they kill through drones, but could not pick them up.

On a serious, the statement by COAS yesterday, did nowhere mention that he has denied the support to the Haqqanis, but rather, only said that ' Only Pakistan should not be called the sole perpetrator'.

 

[araz]

Not really. Kiyani is talking too.

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s powerful military responded to accusations from the United States that its spy service was tied to a violent militant faction of the Afghan insurgency as “very unfortunate and not based on facts.”

“While taking note of the recent statements made by Admiral Mullen, chairman joint chief of staff United States, Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, termed these as very unfortunate and not based on facts,” the military said in a statement released on Friday night in Rawalpindi.

He said that the allegations are especially disturbing in view of a rather constructive meeting with Admiral Mullen in Spain.

“On the specific question of contacts with Haqqanis, the (chief of army staff) said that Admiral Mullen knows fully well which all countries are in contact with the Haqqanis. Singling out Pakistan is neither fair nor productive.”

Mullen, speaking in Senate testimony on Thursday, alleged Haqqani operatives launched an attack last week on the US embassy in Kabul with the support of Pakistan’s military intelligence.

There in lie the links and proof of what I have been saying in a few related posts. It seems that a double game is being played here. Another link in the chain is the OBL episode which again points to the aims of the US. Now the thing that is difficult to decipher is whether the words will be followed by actions or the pressure of the threat itself will be enough to get Pakistan to progressively burn more boats in this fiasco. Either way the situation and its consequences will be bad. DOUBLE CHECK!!
Araz

 

[VCheng]

......................................
On a serious, the statement by COAS yesterday, did nowhere mention that he has denied the support to the Haqqanis, but rather, only said that ' Only Pakistan should not be called the sole perpetrator'.

Exactly correct. However, the Pakistani media and their handlers are portraying it as a "strong rebuttal" when in fact, it will be seen as the admission that it is.

 

[araz]

Everyone around appears to be of the idea that Pakistan should go after the terrorists only because they harm the US plans. But is it not pertinent for the state of Pakistan itself to finish off all the insurgents and extremists for the welfare of its own citizens?

In either case the repercussions are to be faced by us! loss of soldiers lives, suicide attacks,loss of trade, to name a few.
Araz

 

[VCheng]

In either case the repercussions are to be faced by us! loss of soldiers lives, suicide attacks,loss of trade, to name a few.
Araz

Great point, since Pakistan needs to understand that it has the most to lose if is continues on its present trajectory, and it is in the national interest of Pakistan to change course as is being indicated in no uncertain terms.

 

[VCheng]

from: US must not cross ‘red lines’, says FM Khar | Pakistan | DAWN.COM

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s foreign minister on Saturday warned the United States against sending ground troops to her country to fight an Afghan militant group that America alleges is used as a proxy by Pakistan’s top intelligence agency for attacks in neighboring Afghanistan.

The warning came as a top US military commander was in Pakistan for talks with the army chief at a time of intense strain between the two countries. The US Embassy said Gen. James Mattis, head of US Central Command, arrived in Pakistan late Friday, and that he will meet the army chief, Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

Ties between Islamabad and Washington are in crisis after American officials stepped up accusations that Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence was aiding insurgents in neighboring Afghanistan, including those who took part in an attack on the US Embassy last week in Kabul.

Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said in an interview Saturday that there are red lines and rules of engagement with America, which should not be broken.

”It opens all kinds of doors and all kinds of options,” she told Pakistan’s private Aaj News TV from New York. The comment was in response to a question about the possibility of US troops coming to Pakistan.

Khar, however, insisted that Pakistan’s policy was to seek a more intensive engagement with the US and that she would like to discourage any blame game.

”If many of your goals are not achieved, you do not make someone a scapegoat,” she said, addressing the US.

The US allegations have seen a strong reaction from Pakistan.

Kayani, the Pakistani army chief, said on Friday that the charges were baseless and part of a public ”blame game” detrimental to peace in Afghanistan. Other Islamabad officials urged Washington to present evidence for such a serious allegation. Khar warned the United States is risking losing an ally in the war on terror.

The row began when Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on Thursday accused the ISI agency of supporting Haqqani insurgents in planning and executing last week’s 22-hour assault on the US Embassy and a truck bombing that wounded 77 American soldiers days earlier.

Kayani said the allegations were ”very unfortunate and not based on facts.”

The claims were the most serious yet by an American official against nuclear-armed Pakistan, which Washington has given billions in civilian and military aid over the last 10 years to try to secure its cooperation inside Afghanistan and against al-Qaeda.

The Haqqani insurgent network is widely believed to be based in Pakistan’s North Waziristan tribal area along the Afghan border. The group has historical ties to Pakistani intelligence, dating back to the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

The relationship between the two countries has never been smooth, but it took one of its hardest hits when US commandos slipped into Pakistan on May 2 without informing the Pakistanis of their mission and killed al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in a garrison town not far from Islamabad.
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[Jango]

Exactly correct. However, the Pakistani media and their handlers are portraying it as a "strong rebuttal" when in fact, it will be seen as the admission that it is.

Well, we all know the joke that our media is. I have not seen a statement which categorically denies involvement of Pakistan. Rather only attempts to tell the US that public outcry wont do good, and only Pakistan is not the sole perpetrator.

COAS's statements , although it is not a rebuttal, but i dont think it is a admission either.

 

[araz]

Hi,

What you are saying is very important----but the problem I see is that the u s has done nothing in all these years to secure the border on the other side of waziristan---so---basically---they have given a carte blanche to taliban to come and go as they please----and that also allows proxy fighters to come in and attack pakistan as well---.

That is what needs to be brought out---if the u s and ANA had forces were on the other side of the border---they would not have to worry about taliban movement across the border.

---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------



Hi,

What has happened is that as there is no presence of american troops or ANA on the otherside of the border----when the pak millitary strikes---the taliban just move across the border into afg----that is the major bone of contention between pak and u s---and that is what needs to be brought out in the open on u s channels---.

Mastan
You have raised a very important point. I would be the first one to say that the PA has been guilty of complacency which is a very typical feature of Pakistan. However the fault also lies with the US. I think , the first thing that PA should have done was to foresee this situation and sealed and mined the border, getting US to pay for it , making it a condition to its compliance.
Secondly establish a controlled zone of entry and exit from Afghanistan. Assign the US a zo ne and you control the other zone.
This way you would be in a position to show no infiltration from your zone and leave it at that.
The last thing to do was to get a guarantee from all the elements from Afghanistan that no one from the Pak side would launch any movements anywhere, or they would be thrown into Afghanistan and not allowed back in.
At this pint in time in the current situation I donot think there is anything to be done other than to stand up and take a stance.
Araz

 

[araz]

What you hope for - the will in Pakistan to pursue its national interest - will be found sorely lacking, I am sorry to say clearly, what you merely imply.

If that is the case then we deserve every bit of what we get next, because I am saying it out loud and clear, even if we comply with this , there will be another demand tomorrow. Its time to stand and be counted.
Araz