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US & Pakistan Dispute and Tensions over Haqqani group

No disrespect intended.. Scooting off was to show speed and not desperation.. I have changed the post so that it doesnt come across as deriding...

And it was more intended towards the armchair warriors on this forum who keep asking Pakistani govt to kick USA out of Pakistan and how end of USA is near.. :)

Thanks for that. These things take time. Demise of americans will take time, cooling in a relationship also takes time. Remember on a hot day the first rain drops evaporate. later that rain can become a monsoon. Dont forget that in 1935 the americans were preparing a plan to attack British empire. a few years later they were allies. So things change.
 
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US should decide;

Either they are interested to protect afghan lives or their soldiers?
 
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Consistent reporting of the Intel sources.

From my experience of reading such reports , its mostly what Gounder says, However these reports always blacken the source part.

Meaning 'unsubstantiated speculation, rumor and gossip' ...

Since the US has officially stated that it has 'evidence', there is no need to hide that 'evidence' any more - so if the 'evidence' is not publicized now, and US allegations not substantiated, that likely means it does not exist.
 
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What is stopping them right now, or for the past ten years? Don't they have 'free reign' in attacking NW through Drone Strikes, and 'no longer depend on Pakistani intelligence' since the US now has its own 'intelligence network in FATA'?

Again, some evidence instead of ranting and whining by the US to hide their incompetence and failures in Afghanistan, highlighted by the recent high profile Taliban attacks, would be more useful.

What is essentially happening is that the euphoria created by the capture of OBL, and the 'mission accomplished sounds' being made by the Obama Administration, are now starting to look like Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' banner, and hence the need to create scapegoats and deflect blame for US failures in Afghanistan.

---------- Post added at 08:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Another brilliant rebuttal to US propaganda by Ejaz Haider:

America’s SPECTRE syndrome in Afghanistan

By Ejaz Haider
Published: September 20, 2011

Ernst Stavro Sirajuddin Blofeld Haqqani is now running SPECTRE (SPecial Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion), renamed in Afghanistan as the Haqqani Network.

All the troubles of the US and its allies stem from this reincarnation of SPECTRE. The only entity that can take care of this shadowy organisation is Pakistan. The capacity of this organisation to trouble America is exclusively owed to its ability to retire to North Waziristan after striking inside Afghanistan, sometime as deep as in Kabul. Its members seem to be able to fly in and out of Afghanistan, undetected, despite the presence there of US, Nato and Isaf troops.

It’s the only entity that is hampering the US from neatening up Afghanistan. Get rid of the Network and Afghanistan will be fine — the government will work, the Taliban will vanish, corruption will end, pluralism will flourish, democracy will take root, Afghan society will enter the 21st century, America will be safe and everyone will live happily ever after.

Am I being reductive? Please read the long report by the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point which argues that the most “underappreciated dimension” of the Haqqani network is its “global character” and the “central role it has played in the evolution of al-Qa’ida and the global jihadi movement”. Read also the report about the meeting between US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Pakistan’s Foreign Minister, Hina Rabbani Khar ,where the “first and last thing” on the agenda was the Haqqani Network and the September 13 Kabul attack.

The fact is that the Afghanistan problem is not just about the Haqqani Network. Afghanistan has multiple problems, most of which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Haqqanis. Even if the Haqqani Network were entirely taken out, Afghanistan would remain largely the same. In fact, if the only stumbling block between an Afghanistan gone bad and an idyllic Afghanistan were the Network, Afghanistan would have been a piece of cake, not the wicked problem it has become.

Secondly, if the insurgency in Afghanistan was only run by the Haqqanis, JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) would not be conducting thousands of night operations for the last year-and-half across all of Afghanistan, operations that are terribly unpopular.

Thirdly, if use of force was the only answer to Afghanistan’s problems, the US would have, by now, brought it under control. But the use of force, by itself, is clearly not enough. As Mr Abdullah Abdullah told me in April in Washington, what is missing is the ability of the Afghan government to reach out to its people. It is common knowledge that the Afghan governors cannot even survive in their respective vilayats without striking some kind of deal with the Taliban commanders in the area.

Fourthly, the three spectacular attacks in recent weeks, beginning with the downing of a Chinook carrying a SEAL team, the suicide attack that injured 70 US troops, both in Maydan Wardag, and now the September 13 Kabul attack clearly show that the line of communication of the insurgents cannot stretch back to North Waziristan. All these attacks have happened deep inside the Afghan territory and indicate the steady loss of control of territory by the Afghan government and the foreign troops.

If, for the sake of the argument it is conceded that the Taliban line of communication does extend back to North Waziristan, then the ability of the fighters to go deep in and mount attacks makes an utter mockery of the military and intelligence capabilities of the US and its allies despite the tremendous resources at their disposal.

Fifthly, as should be clear from Sirajuddin Haqqani’s interview to Reuters, his fighters are not based in North Waziristan. It makes eminent sense for him to have relocated to the Loya Paktia given the heightened frequency of the drone attacks in North Waziristan and the fact that the Network controls the three provinces of Khost, Paktia and Paktika. They are also unlikely to be based either in Dande Darpa Khel in North Waziristan or Zambar in Khost, both locations known to intelligence agencies.

Finally, Siraj’s interview dispels the propaganda that the Haqqani Network is Al Qaeda. Instead, Siraj told Reuters that “we would support whatever solution our shura members suggest for the future of Afghanistan”, a clear reference to the Afghan Taliban leadership. Siraj also said that they rejected previous attempts at talks by the US and the Afghan government because those overtures were aimed at “creating divisions” among the Taliban. It is therefore misleading to suggest that the Haqqanis operate outside the overall strategic objectives of the Taliban.

Siraj’s interview and signalling is in line with Mullah Omar’s Eidul Fitr message, which dealt with three basic points: the Afghanistan-specific focus of the Taliban; their readiness to negotiate meaningfully, and a warning to the neighbours to desist from interfering in Afghanistan’s internal affairs. Another important motif running through that message was Taliban’s an inclusive approach to governance. In that, this year’s Eid message is very different from the one Mullah Omar delivered last year which rejected negotiations and called for the trial of President Hamid Karzai and his political coterie.

A few quick points need to be made. The US has come round to talking to the Taliban despite some opposition to this dialogue both in Washington and Kabul. Most leading Afghan experts around the world think this is the only way forward, especially — and this is crucial — if the Taliban accept that they cannot rule Afghanistan to the exclusion of other entities. There are clear indications, and Maulana Fazlur Rehman confirmed it to some of us at a recent SAFMA (South Asian Free Media Association) meeting in Lahore, that they understand and appreciate this. Given this, and given rising opposition by the Afghans, including officials, to the use of force by the US in Afghanistan, Washington should fast track this dialogue instead of asking Pakistan to open another front for itself by going into North Waziristan. The dialogue is where Pakistan needs to play a positive role because that is where its interests must converge with that of the US.

Maulana Fazlur Rehman also backed my argument that any policy needs to make a clear distinction between the Afghan Taliban and the TTP and its affiliates. The time to go into North Waziristan would be after the US-Taliban talks have reached an advanced level. That would help Pakistan greatly in dealing a blow to the TTP network.

For all the right reasons the US and Pakistan need to cooperate rather than getting into a game of brinkmanship.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 21st, 2011.

Americas Spectre Syndrome
 
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Meaning 'unsubstantiated speculation, rumor and gossip' ...
Same kind of 'unsubstantiated speculation, rumor and gossip predicted 1971 based on 1965 and 1962 based on 1951, So i have good confidence it.

Since the US has officially stated that it has 'evidence', there is no need to hide that 'evidence' any more - so if the 'evidence' is not publicized now, and US allegations not substantiated, that likely means it does not exist.
Of course , in no way the above source can be considered as some kind of corroborative evidence,
I just mentioned it to add more quality , rather than rely on opinions of some journalist , i believe these reports carry more weight .

Also, judging the Iraq WMDs and aftermath ,its better to pay attention to what Americans think/believe than what they have evidence for
 
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Meaning 'unsubstantiated speculation, rumor and gossip' ...

Since the US has officially stated that it has 'evidence', there is no need to hide that 'evidence' any more - so if the 'evidence' is not publicized now, and US allegations not substantiated, that likely means it does not exist.

Or (with tongue firmly in cheek), they are waiting for the right time to publish the evidence, or (tongue not in cheek), they are covering their bets and not disclosing the details ( which may compromise other intel they have ) in anticipation of a repeat of Operation Geronimo ..

I would wait a few more days for this story to develop...
 
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The best leverage lies in continued positive engagement with the military, the bureaucracy, the media and the judiciary to ensure improved governance, which is the best way to ensure long-term stability of the country.

That was essentially my point, in arguing against Karan's post, that the US does not have very many (if any) military options to use against Pakistan, if the goal of the US is to prevent Pakistan from coming under the control of religious extremists and/or turn into another Somalia/Afghanistan.

---------- Post added at 08:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------

Cross Posting:

Another brilliant rebuttal to US propaganda by Ejaz Haider:

America’s SPECTRE syndrome in Afghanistan

By Ejaz Haider
Published: September 20, 2011

Ernst Stavro Sirajuddin Blofeld Haqqani is now running SPECTRE (SPecial Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion), renamed in Afghanistan as the Haqqani Network.

All the troubles of the US and its allies stem from this reincarnation of SPECTRE. The only entity that can take care of this shadowy organisation is Pakistan. The capacity of this organisation to trouble America is exclusively owed to its ability to retire to North Waziristan after striking inside Afghanistan, sometime as deep as in Kabul. Its members seem to be able to fly in and out of Afghanistan, undetected, despite the presence there of US, Nato and Isaf troops.

It’s the only entity that is hampering the US from neatening up Afghanistan. Get rid of the Network and Afghanistan will be fine — the government will work, the Taliban will vanish, corruption will end, pluralism will flourish, democracy will take root, Afghan society will enter the 21st century, America will be safe and everyone will live happily ever after.

Am I being reductive? Please read the long report by the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point which argues that the most “underappreciated dimension” of the Haqqani network is its “global character” and the “central role it has played in the evolution of al-Qa’ida and the global jihadi movement”. Read also the report about the meeting between US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Pakistan’s Foreign Minister, Hina Rabbani Khar ,where the “first and last thing” on the agenda was the Haqqani Network and the September 13 Kabul attack.

The fact is that the Afghanistan problem is not just about the Haqqani Network. Afghanistan has multiple problems, most of which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Haqqanis. Even if the Haqqani Network were entirely taken out, Afghanistan would remain largely the same. In fact, if the only stumbling block between an Afghanistan gone bad and an idyllic Afghanistan were the Network, Afghanistan would have been a piece of cake, not the wicked problem it has become.

Secondly, if the insurgency in Afghanistan was only run by the Haqqanis, JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) would not be conducting thousands of night operations for the last year-and-half across all of Afghanistan, operations that are terribly unpopular.

Thirdly, if use of force was the only answer to Afghanistan’s problems, the US would have, by now, brought it under control. But the use of force, by itself, is clearly not enough. As Mr Abdullah Abdullah told me in April in Washington, what is missing is the ability of the Afghan government to reach out to its people. It is common knowledge that the Afghan governors cannot even survive in their respective vilayats without striking some kind of deal with the Taliban commanders in the area.

Fourthly, the three spectacular attacks in recent weeks, beginning with the downing of a Chinook carrying a SEAL team, the suicide attack that injured 70 US troops, both in Maydan Wardag, and now the September 13 Kabul attack clearly show that the line of communication of the insurgents cannot stretch back to North Waziristan. All these attacks have happened deep inside the Afghan territory and indicate the steady loss of control of territory by the Afghan government and the foreign troops.

If, for the sake of the argument it is conceded that the Taliban line of communication does extend back to North Waziristan, then the ability of the fighters to go deep in and mount attacks makes an utter mockery of the military and intelligence capabilities of the US and its allies despite the tremendous resources at their disposal.

Fifthly, as should be clear from Sirajuddin Haqqani’s interview to Reuters, his fighters are not based in North Waziristan. It makes eminent sense for him to have relocated to the Loya Paktia given the heightened frequency of the drone attacks in North Waziristan and the fact that the Network controls the three provinces of Khost, Paktia and Paktika. They are also unlikely to be based either in Dande Darpa Khel in North Waziristan or Zambar in Khost, both locations known to intelligence agencies.

Finally, Siraj’s interview dispels the propaganda that the Haqqani Network is Al Qaeda. Instead, Siraj told Reuters that “we would support whatever solution our shura members suggest for the future of Afghanistan”, a clear reference to the Afghan Taliban leadership. Siraj also said that they rejected previous attempts at talks by the US and the Afghan government because those overtures were aimed at “creating divisions” among the Taliban. It is therefore misleading to suggest that the Haqqanis operate outside the overall strategic objectives of the Taliban.

Siraj’s interview and signalling is in line with Mullah Omar’s Eidul Fitr message, which dealt with three basic points: the Afghanistan-specific focus of the Taliban; their readiness to negotiate meaningfully, and a warning to the neighbours to desist from interfering in Afghanistan’s internal affairs. Another important motif running through that message was Taliban’s an inclusive approach to governance. In that, this year’s Eid message is very different from the one Mullah Omar delivered last year which rejected negotiations and called for the trial of President Hamid Karzai and his political coterie.

A few quick points need to be made. The US has come round to talking to the Taliban despite some opposition to this dialogue both in Washington and Kabul. Most leading Afghan experts around the world think this is the only way forward, especially — and this is crucial — if the Taliban accept that they cannot rule Afghanistan to the exclusion of other entities. There are clear indications, and Maulana Fazlur Rehman confirmed it to some of us at a recent SAFMA (South Asian Free Media Association) meeting in Lahore, that they understand and appreciate this. Given this, and given rising opposition by the Afghans, including officials, to the use of force by the US in Afghanistan, Washington should fast track this dialogue instead of asking Pakistan to open another front for itself by going into North Waziristan. The dialogue is where Pakistan needs to play a positive role because that is where its interests must converge with that of the US.

Maulana Fazlur Rehman also backed my argument that any policy needs to make a clear distinction between the Afghan Taliban and the TTP and its affiliates. The time to go into North Waziristan would be after the US-Taliban talks have reached an advanced level. That would help Pakistan greatly in dealing a blow to the TTP network.

For all the right reasons the US and Pakistan need to cooperate rather than getting into a game of brinkmanship.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 21st, 2011.

Americas Spectre Syndrome
 
.
What is stopping them right now, or for the past ten years? Don't they have 'free reign' in attacking NW through Drone Strikes, and 'no longer depend on Pakistani intelligence' since the US now has its own 'intelligence network in FATA'?


Again, some evidence instead of ranting and whining by the US to hide their incompetence and failures in Afghanistan, highlighted by the recent high profile Taliban attacks, would be more useful.

What is essentially happening is that the euphoria created by the capture of OBL, and the 'mission accomplished sounds' being made by the Obama Administration, are now starting to look like Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' banner, and hence the need to create scapegoats and deflect blame for US failures in Afghanistan.

---------- Post added at 08:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Another brilliant rebuttal to US propaganda by Ejaz Haider:

America’s SPECTRE syndrome in Afghanistan

By Ejaz Haider
Published: September 20, 2011

Ernst Stavro Sirajuddin Blofeld Haqqani is now running SPECTRE (SPecial Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion), renamed in Afghanistan as the Haqqani Network.

All the troubles of the US and its allies stem from this reincarnation of SPECTRE. The only entity that can take care of this shadowy organisation is Pakistan. The capacity of this organisation to trouble America is exclusively owed to its ability to retire to North Waziristan after striking inside Afghanistan, sometime as deep as in Kabul. Its members seem to be able to fly in and out of Afghanistan, undetected, despite the presence there of US, Nato and Isaf troops.

It’s the only entity that is hampering the US from neatening up Afghanistan. Get rid of the Network and Afghanistan will be fine — the government will work, the Taliban will vanish, corruption will end, pluralism will flourish, democracy will take root, Afghan society will enter the 21st century, America will be safe and everyone will live happily ever after.

Am I being reductive? Please read the long report by the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point which argues that the most “underappreciated dimension” of the Haqqani network is its “global character” and the “central role it has played in the evolution of al-Qa’ida and the global jihadi movement”. Read also the report about the meeting between US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Pakistan’s Foreign Minister, Hina Rabbani Khar ,where the “first and last thing” on the agenda was the Haqqani Network and the September 13 Kabul attack.

The fact is that the Afghanistan problem is not just about the Haqqani Network. Afghanistan has multiple problems, most of which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Haqqanis. Even if the Haqqani Network were entirely taken out, Afghanistan would remain largely the same. In fact, if the only stumbling block between an Afghanistan gone bad and an idyllic Afghanistan were the Network, Afghanistan would have been a piece of cake, not the wicked problem it has become.

Secondly, if the insurgency in Afghanistan was only run by the Haqqanis, JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) would not be conducting thousands of night operations for the last year-and-half across all of Afghanistan, operations that are terribly unpopular.

Thirdly, if use of force was the only answer to Afghanistan’s problems, the US would have, by now, brought it under control. But the use of force, by itself, is clearly not enough. As Mr Abdullah Abdullah told me in April in Washington, what is missing is the ability of the Afghan government to reach out to its people. It is common knowledge that the Afghan governors cannot even survive in their respective vilayats without striking some kind of deal with the Taliban commanders in the area.

Fourthly, the three spectacular attacks in recent weeks, beginning with the downing of a Chinook carrying a SEAL team, the suicide attack that injured 70 US troops, both in Maydan Wardag, and now the September 13 Kabul attack clearly show that the line of communication of the insurgents cannot stretch back to North Waziristan. All these attacks have happened deep inside the Afghan territory and indicate the steady loss of control of territory by the Afghan government and the foreign troops.

If, for the sake of the argument it is conceded that the Taliban line of communication does extend back to North Waziristan, then the ability of the fighters to go deep in and mount attacks makes an utter mockery of the military and intelligence capabilities of the US and its allies despite the tremendous resources at their disposal.

Fifthly, as should be clear from Sirajuddin Haqqani’s interview to Reuters, his fighters are not based in North Waziristan. It makes eminent sense for him to have relocated to the Loya Paktia given the heightened frequency of the drone attacks in North Waziristan and the fact that the Network controls the three provinces of Khost, Paktia and Paktika. They are also unlikely to be based either in Dande Darpa Khel in North Waziristan or Zambar in Khost, both locations known to intelligence agencies.

Finally, Siraj’s interview dispels the propaganda that the Haqqani Network is Al Qaeda. Instead, Siraj told Reuters that “we would support whatever solution our shura members suggest for the future of Afghanistan”, a clear reference to the Afghan Taliban leadership. Siraj also said that they rejected previous attempts at talks by the US and the Afghan government because those overtures were aimed at “creating divisions” among the Taliban. It is therefore misleading to suggest that the Haqqanis operate outside the overall strategic objectives of the Taliban.

Siraj’s interview and signalling is in line with Mullah Omar’s Eidul Fitr message, which dealt with three basic points: the Afghanistan-specific focus of the Taliban; their readiness to negotiate meaningfully, and a warning to the neighbours to desist from interfering in Afghanistan’s internal affairs. Another important motif running through that message was Taliban’s an inclusive approach to governance. In that, this year’s Eid message is very different from the one Mullah Omar delivered last year which rejected negotiations and called for the trial of President Hamid Karzai and his political coterie.

A few quick points need to be made. The US has come round to talking to the Taliban despite some opposition to this dialogue both in Washington and Kabul. Most leading Afghan experts around the world think this is the only way forward, especially — and this is crucial — if the Taliban accept that they cannot rule Afghanistan to the exclusion of other entities. There are clear indications, and Maulana Fazlur Rehman confirmed it to some of us at a recent SAFMA (South Asian Free Media Association) meeting in Lahore, that they understand and appreciate this. Given this, and given rising opposition by the Afghans, including officials, to the use of force by the US in Afghanistan, Washington should fast track this dialogue instead of asking Pakistan to open another front for itself by going into North Waziristan. The dialogue is where Pakistan needs to play a positive role because that is where its interests must converge with that of the US.

Maulana Fazlur Rehman also backed my argument that any policy needs to make a clear distinction between the Afghan Taliban and the TTP and its affiliates. The time to go into North Waziristan would be after the US-Taliban talks have reached an advanced level. That would help Pakistan greatly in dealing a blow to the TTP network.

For all the right reasons the US and Pakistan need to cooperate rather than getting into a game of brinkmanship.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 21st, 2011.

Americas Spectre Syndrome

The bolded part, bang on there AM.
 
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Or (with tongue firmly in cheek), they are waiting for the right time to publish the evidence, or (tongue not in cheek), they are covering their bets and not disclosing the details ( which may compromise other intel they have ) in anticipation of a repeat of Operation Geronimo ..
Or (tossing aside all the convoluted excuses and verbal gymnastics) the US has no evidence and the current tirade against Pakistan is to deflect blame for their failures in Afghanistan and hide their embarrassment over the recent high profile Taliban attacks.

And surely you see the irony in your regurgitation of the 'Rehman Malik tactic' of 'we will present the evidence at the right time'.
I would wait a few more days for this story to develop...
How many? And till it does 'develop', given the lack of any evidence, we must assume US officials are acting in the manner they are because of the reasons I have argued.
 
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Same kind of 'unsubstantiated speculation, rumor and gossip predicted 1971 based on 1965 and 1962 based on 1951, So i have good confidence it.
I am unaware of any 'gossip, speculation and rumor predicting' any of what you claim, not to mention that the US was caught lying with its pants down about WMD's in Iraq, and there they went to the extent of arguing those lies in front of the UN.


Of course , in no way the above source can be considered as some kind of corroborative evidence,
I just mentioned it to add more quality , rather than rely on opinions of some journalist , i believe these reports carry more weight .

Also, judging the Iraq WMDs and aftermath ,its better to pay attention to what Americans think/believe than what they have evidence for
How can unsubstantiated reports from one party that is clearly hostile towards the other party being accused in those reports, be taken as 'providing quality'? If you had reports from a 'neutral source', those might be of interest at least.

Judging by the 'Iraq WMD's and aftermath', it is clear that the US is not beyond lying and fabricating intelligence to achieve its goals.
 
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I am unaware of any 'gossip, speculation and rumor predicting' any of what you claim,
regarding 1971 and 1962?

not to mention that the US was caught lying with its pants down about WMD's in Iraq, and there they went to the extent of arguing those lies in front of the UN.
Ok!


How can unsubstantiated reports from one party that is clearly hostile towards the other party being accused in those reports, be taken as 'providing quality'? If you had reports from a 'neutral source', those might be of interest at least.

Er....in simple sense , rather than statements in wiki , which are usually from article written by people like say , Ahmed Rasheed,(who could be biased) i thought these reports carried more quality , as from my reading they as unbiased as possible more accurate.

Judging by the 'Iraq WMD's and aftermath', it is clear that the US is not beyond lying and fabricating intelligence to achieve its goals.

My point was : Does it matter that USA had evidence for Iraqi WMDs or not? what matters was the war and continuing insurgency destroyed that nation
 
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Or (tossing aside all the convoluted excuses and verbal gymnastics) the US has no evidence and the current tirade against Pakistan is to deflect blame for their failures in Afghanistan and hide their embarrassment over the recent high profile Taliban attacks.

Could very well be the case..
And surely you see the irony in your regurgitation of the 'Rehman Malik tactic' of 'we will present the evidence at the right time'.

Buddy, that was my way of agreeing with you that they might be doing a Rehman Malik on Pakistan by simply making an accusation and not backing it up.. But alas, the level of mistrust between us clouds all chances of playful verbal gymnastics :azn:

How many? And till it does 'develop', given the lack of any evidence, we must assume US officials are acting in the manner they are because of the reasons I have argued.
I will wait quite a few days, simply because given the track record of Taliban/Al Queda terrorists turning up dead or alive within Pakistan, the probability is pretty high that this accusation is true as well.. More so the recency effect of Operation Geronimo hasnt lost its potency yet..
 
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