US offering Patriot system if Russian S-400s not operated: Turkey

[StormBreaker]

As for the Coronavirus, it’s not easy and no fun to be around the folks who think it’s like a one-way ticket into this world....

As for S-400, Russia might be happy with the transfer to get an end to the humiliation of her AD systems....

Especially if they value their system not getting into USA’s hands ie blackmail russia to either resell it to Pak or get it in USA’s hands...

 

[ziaulislam]

So Turkey is fighting Russian backed fighters and yet is also purchasing high tech weapons from them? Im so confused.

Everyone is confused
And gave up a good share of tech transfer and work up with f35..it was getting 100f35s ..
Now its getting a few 100kms missles for half the price of f35...
I thought turkey on defence system was on trial..couldnt it have waited for few more years

 

[The Eagle]

We should re-sell those those to Azerbaijan or Pakistan if they are interested in it, we could give them brotherly discount.

If it was that easy, we could have got Chinese SU-35s or even SU-27s or J-11s but no !!!
We didn’t and most certainly re-sell policy is strict from Russian side @The Eagle ?

You are right. I think xenon54 extended a brotherly approach hence, the offer as such.

 

[xenon54 out]

You are right. I think xenon54 extended a brotherly approach hence, the offer as such.

Russians are known to break every other agreement, why should we play by the rules then?

 

[StormBreaker]

Russians are known to break every other agreement, why should we play by the rules then?

Russians have nothing to set influence upon others except for gas...
It would be a dream come true to see S-400 coming to Pak from Turkey.
We will have something to brag about to indians whenever they start their s-400 lullaby

 

[OldTwilight]

well , Turkey can't mis used S400 against the contract term because Russia will bring her to international court and USA/China/UK/France will back Russias for this simple fact :

USA/China/UK/France/Russia are biggest weapon suppliers of world , so they won't accept a customer to violate contract term because their own customer can use it as an example against themselves ....

so , the world is not that simple as some of our Turkish and Pakistanis friends thinks ...

If Turkey buy the F35 fighters , it cannot use it against USA will which is writen in buying contract .
If Turkey buy the S400 systems , it cannot use it against Russia will which is writen in buying contract .

 

[Mentee]

It is a very complex game, Turkey is at the advantage as well as at a great disadvantage.
They came at advantage as soon as they procured S-400.
Russia doesn’t mean much to Turkey at the moment and Turkey can afford to lose it.
Turkey has Russia by its balls by acquiring S-400 which can be used as a tool to restart relations with US and get F-35 most importantly in exchange for allowing US near S-400.

@Mangus Ortus Novem

I hope erdogan had that in mind while going for the s 400

@Mangus Ortus Novem what if we were already be operating some squadrons of Chinese j10's and gunships? Would the Americans still be withholding our f16`s and Zulus?

 

[xenon54 out]

Russians have nothing to set influence upon others except for gas...
It would be a dream come true to see S-400 coming to Pak from Turkey.
We will have something to brag about to indians whenever they start their s-400 lullaby

They cant really afford to loose a big customer like Turkey with ruble hitting rock bottom at the moment.
Even if they do there is plenty of alternatives in the immadiate neighborhood anyways.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Turkish officials say Ankara is evaluating the US offer but it had not changed its plans on Russian S-400 systems.

18 hours ago

NATO allies Turkey and the US have been at odds over Ankara's purchase last year of the S-400s [File: Sebastian Apel/US Department of Defense/AP]

The United States has offered to sell Turkey its Patriot missile defence system if Ankara promises not to operate a rival Russian system, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said, in what he called a significant softening in Washington's position.

Two Turkish officials told Reuters News Agency that Turkey was evaluating the US offer but added that Ankara had not changed its plans for the Russian S-400 systems, which it has said it would start to activate next month.

More:

• Understanding the 'S-400 crisis'

• Turkey: Russian S-400 missile system operational in April 2020

• Why do countries want to buy the Russian S-400?

NATO allies Turkey and the US have been at odds over Ankara's purchase last year of the S-400s, which Washington says are incompatible with the alliance's defence systems.

After heavy fighting in northwestern Syria's Idlib region this year, Turkey asked Washington to deploy Patriots along its border with Syria for protection.

But the US said Turkey could not have both the S-400s and the Patriots.

Speaking to reporters on his return flight from Brussels, Erdogan said Ankara had told Washington to deploy Patriot systems to Turkey and that it was ready to buy the systems from the US, as well.

"We made this offer to the United States on the Patriot: If you are going to give us Patriots, then do it. We can also buy Patriots from you," he said.

"They also softened significantly on this S-400 issue. They are now at the point of 'promise us you won't make the S-400s operational,'" Erdogan added.

Previous talks between Turkey and the US on the purchase of the Patriots have collapsed over a host of issues, from the S-400s to Ankara's dissatisfaction with Washington's terms. Turkey has said it will only agree to an offer if it includes technology transfer and joint production terms.

Syria conflict
While ties between Ankara and Washington have been strained, the US has offered support for its ally as it battles to stop Russia-backed Syrian government advances in Idlib.

But US officials said on Tuesday Ankara had to clarify its position on the S-400s for their security ties to advance.

Turkey, Russia announce ceasefire in Syria's Idlib (2:26)
US special representative for Syria James Jeffrey and US Ambassador to Turkey David Satterfield told reporters on a conference call from Brussels that Washington was discussing with NATO what support it can offer Turkey militarily.

Jeffrey also said they had considered possible responses should Russia and the Syrian government break a ceasefire in Idlib, officials said.

He suggested other NATO states could individually or as an alliance provide military support to help Turkey.

But he ruled out sending ground troops and said there still needed to be a resolution to the S-400 issue for the security relationship to move forward.

"You can forget ground troops. Turkey has demonstrated that it and its opposition forces are more than capable of holding ground on their own," Jeffrey said.

"The issue is the situation in the air, and it's what we are looking at," he said, adding that Washington did not believe that Russia and Syrian had any interest in a permanent ceasefire in Idlib.

"They are out to get a military victory in Syria, and our goal is to make it difficult for them to do that," Jeffrey said.

"Our goal is ... to make them think twice. If they ignore our warnings and preparations and move forward, then we will react as rapidly as possible in consultation with our NATO and European allies on what the package of sanctions and other reactions will be."

'Position unchanged'
While Erdogan has frequently referred to the S-400 purchase as a "done deal" and said Turkey would not back away from it, he did not repeat that stance in his comments on Tuesday.

Turkish officials, however, said Turkey's position remained unchanged.

"The United States has once again brought up the Patriot offer. The United States' previous strong stance isn't the case any more. They are approaching Turkey more empathetically now," a senior official said.

"The core condition is that the S-400s are not activated, or in other words, they are not unboxed. This offer is being evaluated, but there is no change of stance on the S-400s," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Another Turkish official told Reuters the latest offer by Washington also included Turkey's return to the F-35 stealth fighter jet programme, which Ankara was involved in both as manufacturer of plane parts and customer for the jets.

READ MORE
Turkey: S-400 system 'vital'; will retaliate to any US sanctions
After Ankara bought the S-400s, Washington suspended its involvement in the programme and threatened sanctions.

"There is a US offer for Patriots, but this offer includes the F-35s," the Turkish official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"Air defence systems can be purchased, but Turkey's conditions are clear: there has to be issues like the know-how transfer and joint production."

Turkey has said it plans to activate the S-400s it received from Russia in April. The US has warned such a move will trigger sanctions, though Ankara has repeatedly said good ties between Erdogan and US President Donald Trump may be able to avert this.

Under a US law, known as Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), purchase of defence equipment from Russia could invite sanctions. However, the president can opt to issue a waiver.

SOURCE: REUTERS NEWS AGENCY

Turkey should accept this offer. S400 is not a big deal anyway.

 

[Yaseen1]

i think at end russia will also not sell s400 to turkey and u.s will also refuse to give them patriot

 

[OldTwilight]

They cant really afford to loose a big customer like Turkey with ruble hitting rock bottom at the moment.
Even if they do there is plenty of alternatives in the immadiate neighborhood anyways.

well , they did this with us , the result was that we developed our own air defence system which is in last develpment stage and from now on , we won't buy any air defence system from them any more ....

so thanks for Iran , now Russia know that can't afford to lose a customer easily ....

The funny part is that after their Defence Minister see the development of Bavar-373 system , they accept to gave us modified version of S300 PMU 2 which has some charactistics of S400 ... .

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...a-really-delivered-in-2016-and-why-it-matters

although right now , we want to buy and co produce Su-30 , and I think this is last chance Russia has to sell Su-30 to any country in large number ...

i think at end russia will also not sell s400 to turkey and u.s will also refuse to give them patriot

Turkey only want to buy S400 and Patroit against Iran and Egypt ... So their mainland is not under immidiate threat right now ...

 

[StormBreaker]

i think at end russia will also not sell s400 to turkey and u.s will also refuse to give them patriot

S400 already delivered to Turkey bro

O Mentee,

My sense is that the US has entered into a Game of Chicken with the AFT/IEA and the Rules of the Game have been agreed by both players.

It is also my sense that alot of 'security' will be outsourced to Pakistan as well... so Zulus or F16 are no bother for the US... also denying them would mean that the US will loose further infulence over our defence policy/ability.

And we would be edging faster out of US sphere ... which will be a major loss to the US.

We have Thunders operating with F16 so how could J10 will be problem?

Pak needs alot of Gunships... for 'security' outsourcing and managing the menence to the EasternFlank!

Hopefully, we can build an industrial base for rotary flying machines as well...with eye on civilian applications too!

Turkiye has a TrumpCard with S400...more like a negotiating tool.... Pashas in Ankra are very well verssed in Statecraft unlike our Babucracy whose sole purpose in life is loot and then flying to Foreignistan!

Mangus

Yes, USA and Pakistan are getting back in the game together but differently

 

[Pandora]

If Turkey has to dump S400 to get F35 and Patriots then they should not waste any time. Patriot is a proven system and recent performance of Russian SAMs in syria does't really bring much confidence in S400. Either be in US camp or chinese Russians are a waste of time.

 

[Baybars Han]

This would be a wise decision.

I thought if it could be transferred to Northern Cyprus however Russia don't recognise it.

Another option would be to use the s-400 for a few years until we make our own options then just remove it from service or sell it on and then get F-35s that are bug free, fully operational in its latest software.

Potential military help from fellow NATO members in Syria against Russia...while also getting Patriot and F35...that's too good to pass up...

Now the challenge is to negotiate some sort of tech transfer and joint production Turkey initially wanted...if Turkey can fast track these negotiations and get US to agree on that last part...
...it would be wise to forgo the S400.

In the technology aspect...
Not only would Turkey gain some tech know how that would help them in further developing their own air defense systems...they would be back on track as far as their air force plans. F35 would be available and Turkey wouldn't be facing the backlash from other NATO members which can come in handy for the development of TFX.

Militarily, Geopolitically, and Economically...
Turkey would get the help of other NATO members in Syrian intervention which would counter Russia. This would lessen the economic strain on Turkey to do that alone and probably mean better results through shared intelligence. Any CAATSA related potential sanctions would also be avoided.

The above are the pros...the obvious cons would be...
1) Soured relations with Russia...
...there weren't super great relations between them to begin with...and now especially given the indirect actions of Russia against Turkey through the Syrian conflict...it's not really an issue.
2) S400 just sitting there...
...it wasn't cheap to buy...if Turkey proceeds with these new developments and doesn't activate it...that's potentially a major loss. In that case perhaps something like what happened in case of Cyprus and Greece(for the S300) can be tried. Turkey coordinates with Russia...the S400 system in question is transferred to some other country that's interested. Russia gets the full payment as it would have from Turkey...the third country potentially receives S400 at a slightly lower price(price slightly lowered to attract other countries)...and Turkey just foots the bill for that difference. For that slight cost...Turkey would gain far more IMO.

@dBSPL @cabatli_53 @KediKesenFare @Hakikat ve Hikmet @GlobalMillitary96 @Hamzza @era_shield @Exxxe
I would like to know the opinions of our fellow Turks(or anyone for that matter) on PDF. Please keep it objective. Feel free to tag others.

 

[CAN_TR]

Turkey only want to buy S400 and Patroit against Iran and Egypt ... So their mainland is not under immidiate threat right now ...

Iranian Air Force is no threat and Egypt can‘t even reach Turkish airspace let alone returning back without aerial refuel.