US objects to China-Pakistan nuclear deal

[Capt.Popeye]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM
"A vote in the NSG would only come into play if there was a proposal floated for an 'exemption' (violation of the NSG charter in other words) along the lines of what India obtained. "

@ AgNoStIc MuSliM
i seek a clarification; Does that a mean that a vote or any consensus is required only if an "exemption" is sought, while an "approval" would be automatic i.e. without a vote ?
And in this matter, is it a case of "exemption" or "approval" ?
Thanks in advance.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM
"A vote in the NSG would only come into play if there was a proposal floated for an 'exemption' (violation of the NSG charter in other words) along the lines of what India obtained. "

@ AgNoStIc MuSliM
i seek a clarification; Does that a mean that a vote or any consensus is required only if an "exemption" is sought, while an "approval" would be automatic i.e. without a vote ?
And in this matter, is it a case of "exemption" or "approval" ?
Thanks in advance.

Approval/exemption (same thing in the case of any NPT non-signatory nation) would only come into play if the nations were to argue a 'new' nuclear deal. In this case the argument is that the deal is 'grandfathered', so approval/exemption is not required. China and Pakistan have indicated they will address the questions of the NSG members and international community regarding safeguards and transparency of the proposed reactors, but they have not indicated they are interested in NSG approval/exemption given the argument of the deal being 'grandfathered', and AFAIK, the NSG does not have any sort of 'arbitration mechanism' to judge the validity of one position vs another.

 

[Guynextdoor]

"Yes sir, by definition, we do not support any activity that goes against the guidelines," said Vann H Van Diepen, Acting Assistant Secretary of State for International Security and Non Proliferation

BS - the US did just that, supported the violation of the NSG charter and guidelines in selling nuclear technology and materials to an NPT-non signatory, when it lobbied for the Indian NSG exemption and passed its own nuclear cooperation agreement with India.

The blatant duplicity and forked tongue of the US government is just astounding.

Dude, this attitude isn't going to get you guys very far. Instead of blaming america for this and that you may want to understand WHY things were done and why they weren't happening to you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dude, this attitude isn't going to get you guys very far. Instead of blaming america for this and that you may want to understand WHY things were done and why they weren't happening to you.

Absolutely the US needs to be blamed - where is the criteria for NPT non-signatories applying for exemptions in the NSG?

If the US is going to push through blatant double standards and arbitrary exemptions then there is nothing to understand or address on our part.

If on the other hand the US/NSG had proposed a set criteria for nations such as India, Pakistan, Israel to meet in order to qualify for civilian nuclear cooperation, then there might be some need to 'introspect' or 'understand' on Pakistan's part, in order to meet the set criteria.

Unfortunately there is no criteria, just arbitrary favors handed out to preferred parties without any regard to the NSG's own charter and guidelines.

 

[twocents]

China and Pakistan have publicly announed the nuclear deal. There is no going back. The US doesn't have a legal leg to stand on trying to oppose the Sino-Pakistan deal. Anyway this deal is for power generation, which Pakistan is in great need of. Outside India there is not too much interest in the story.

 

[mr42O]

and thats tell who are NOT our friends.

 

[Renegade]

Depends on how one interprets it - the Sino-Pak position is that the agreement implied developing the Chasma NPP complex, not just CHASNUPP I & II, and therefore needs no approval from the NSG, and therefore the US ( the hypocrites and duplicitous bastards that they are) can vote against the exemption all they want.

Whenever there is a contract like this signed, it is signed in terms of reactors and not complexe's. Look at any international deal it is always in terms of number of reactors. Its absurd to talk about developing complexe's, by this very logic a complex could consist of hundreds of reactors. By your very logic Chasma-3 & 4 could be followed by Chasma-6,7,8,9 and so on. Your argument does not make much sense.

A vote in the NSG would only come into play if there was a proposal floated for an 'exemption' (violation of the NSG charter in other words) along the lines of what India obtained.

I somehow have a feeling that the Chinese have pulled a quick one on you. They know that this deal is not going to pull through the NSG, given Pakistans proliferation record and the Chinese commitment to the NSG, but then why no gain some favour at Islamabad by looking to give something that the West is going to torpedo anyway. So they dont have to deliver anything and West takes all the blame.

I will be very surprised if the deal goes through.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Whenever there is contract like this signed, it is signed in terms of rectors and not complexe's. Look at any international dela it is always in terms of number of rectors. Its absurd to talk about developing complexe's, by this very logic a complex could consist of hundreds of reactors. By your very logic Chasma-3 & 4 could be followed by Chasma-6,7,8,9 and so on. Your argument does not make much sense.

Absolutely it could be followed by 6,7,8,9 etc. .... if they were part of the plan to develop the Chashma complex.

I somehow have a feeling that the Chinese have pulled a quick one on you. They know that this deal is not going to pull through the NSG, given Pakistans proliferation record and the Chinese commitment to the NSG, but then why no gain some favour at Islamabad by looking to give something that the West is going to torpedo anyway. So they dont have to devliver anything and West takes all the blame.

I will be very surprised if the deal goes through.

But the deal isn't being put through the NSG, since Pakistan and China are arguing it is grandfathered, so the question of the NSG approving it or not does not matter.

 

[Renegade]

Absolutely it could be followed by 6,7,8,9 etc. .... if they were part of the plan to develop the Chashma complex..

Their Chasma commitment as declared by the Chineese to the NSG, mentioned only Chasma-1 & 2, there was no mention of Chasma-3 & 4 and neither did the Chineese talk in terms of complexes. So by this very logic alone, its a breach of NSG guidelines.


B

ut the deal isn't being put through the NSG, since Pakistan and China are arguing it is grandfathered, so the question of the NSG approving it or not does not matter.

The very fact that the deal was discussed at the NSG conference in New Zealand and the subsiquent US declaration of voting against it in the NSG, clearly highlites the fact that the NSG consideres it within its jurisdiction.

They simply dont seem to be subscribing to your view that it is just between China & Pakistan. Plus, with the Americans now commiting against it, it becomes all the more harder for Pakistan to get the reactors. The US can anyday offer China more in return than Pakistan ever can.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Their Chasma commitment as declared by the Chineese to the NSG, mentioned only Chasma-1 & 2, there was no mention of Chasma-3 & 4 and neither did the Chineese talk in terms of complexes. So by this very logic alone, its a breach of NSG guidelines.

China and Pakistan interpret those statements differently and therefore do not believe the NSG has any role in approving the construction of CHASNUPP III & IV.

B

The very fact that the deal was discussed at the NSG conference in New Zealand and the subsiquent US declaration of voting against it in the NSG, clearly highlites the fact that the NSG consideres it within its jurisdiction.

They simply dont seem to be subscribing to your view that it is just between China & Pakistan. Plus, with the Americans now commiting against it, it becomes all the more harder for Pakistan to get the reactors. The US can anyday offer China more in return than Pakistan ever can.

The deal was discussed, not in the context of gaining NSG approval and having a vote, but in the interests of transparency and assuring the international community regarding safeguards.

As of now neither China nor Pakistan has changed their position that the deal is 'grandfathered' and therefore there is no question of the NSG voting on it. And since the NSG is a non-binding entity as are its guidelines, what will those not subscribing to the Sino-Pak position do? Especially given that most nations also realize that the US is the one that opened the door to this by violating NSG guidelines and charter in the case of the Indian exemption.

 

[Renegade]

China and Pakistan interpret those statements differently and therefore do not believe the NSG has any role in approving the construction of CHASNUPP III & IV.

Interesting how you chaps can give a spin to something so simple. Declare commitments- China declares- Chasma 1 & 2 only- China & Pakistan interpret and elongate it to Chasma 3 & 4.

While i dont see any merit in your argument, you seem to hold the view that it is totally legal. OK good luck. Lets see if the Americans allow this to go through, by so clearly stating their position they have clearly taken sides and it will be very hard to sideline Uncle Sam!!

The deal was discussed, not in the context of gaining NSG approval and having a vote, but in the interests of transparency and assuring the international community regarding safeguards.

As of now neither China nor Pakistan has changed their position that the deal is 'grandfathered' and therefore there is no question of the NSG voting on it. And since the NSG is a non-binding entity as are its guidelines, what will those not subscribing to the Sino-Pak position do? Especially given that most nations also realize that the US is the one that opened the door to this by violating NSG guidelines and charter in the case of the Indian exemption.

The NSG gave a clear exemption to the Indo-US nuclear deal, other nuclear powers have since choose to do business with India. This clealy shows the wide acceptance to the exemption So it is incorrect to say that any gudelines were violated.

Lets wait and watch. Only time will tell if this deal goes through. With the Americans taking sides the West is very likely to go against it. The lines seem drawn and such clear opposition and from such a heavyweight, clearly does not make me very optimistic.

 

[Hulk]

Interesting how you chaps can give a spin to something so simple. Declare commitments- China declares- Chasma 1 & 2 only- China & Pakistan interpret and elongate it to Chasma 3 & 4.

While i dont see any merit in your argument, you seem to hold the view that it is totally legal. OK good luck. Lets see if the Americans allow this to go through, by so clearly stating their position they have clearly taken sides and it will be very hard to sideline Uncle Sam!!




The NSG gave a clear exemption to the Indo-US nuclear deal, other nuclear powers have since choose to do business with India. This clealy shows the wide acceptance to the exemption So it is incorrect to say that any gudelines were violated.

Lets wait and watch. Only time will tell if this deal goes through. With the Americans taking sides the West is very likely to go against it. The lines seem drawn and such clear opposition and from such a heavyweight, clearly does not make me very optimistic.

Let's not underestimate China, the only thing is we never know what is in their mind. As I understand China see's it's interest more than anything else, so deal have to be worked out for them.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Interesting how you chaps can give a spin to something so simple. Declare commitments- China declares- Chasma 1 & 2 only- China & Pakistan interpret and elongate it to Chasma 3 & 4.

Not even close the the 'spin' put on the NSG exemption for India, in blatant violation of the NSG charter and guidelines, by the US and other proponents of the deal.

While i dont see any merit in your argument, you seem to hold the view that it is totally legal. OK good luck. Lets see if the Americans allow this to go through, by so clearly stating their position they have clearly taken sides and it will be very hard to sideline Uncle Sam!!

Its just as legal as an entity that has 'no nuclear cooperation with NPT non-signatories' as a central part of its charter, violating that charter and guidelines to arbitrarily hand out favors (nuclear cooperation waivers) to some entities without any process or criteria governing them.

The NSG gave a clear exemption to the Indo-US nuclear deal, other nuclear powers have since choose to do business with India. This clealy shows the wide acceptance to the exemption So it is incorrect to say that any gudelines were violated.

Please show me where in the NSG charter criteria for nuclear cooperation with NSG non-NPT signatories is. If there is not any set criteria, and the argument against Chinese cooperation with Pakistan STILL is that it is a non-NPT signatory, then obviously the Indian exemption was a violation of the NSG charter and guidelines.

However, if the NSG chose to insert some 'criteria' that would govern such exemptions, that would apply to all NPT non-signatories, then and only then is the Indian exemption not a violation of the NSG charter and guidelines.

Show me where the NSG included criteria for such exemptions in its rules, under which India qualified.

Lets wait and watch. Only time will tell if this deal goes through. With the Americans taking sides the West is very likely to go against it. The lines seem drawn and such clear opposition and from such a heavyweight, clearly does not make me very optimistic.

This years budget already has several billion allocated towards CHASNUPP III, IV. In fact , there are also amounts allocated for KANUPP II. Chinese firms have already announced contracts, and Pakistan and China continue to take the same position.

I'd say the deal is in the process of being implemented at this point.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

As of now neither China nor Pakistan has changed their position that the deal is 'grandfathered' and therefore there is no question of the NSG voting on it. And since the NSG is a non-binding entity as are its guidelines, what will those not subscribing to the Sino-Pak position do? Especially given that most nations also realize that the US is the one that opened the door to this by violating NSG guidelines and charter in the case of the Indian exemption.

You're right, this deal will go through, with or without the NSG. I'm not worried about that.

What I'm worried about is FUTURE China-Pakistan nuclear deals... how will we get those through?

What are the implications of signing the NPT at this time?

 

[Ras]

And what was the US doing with Indo-US deal at NSG ??

NSG members were not happy with US suspending or bending laws for its own commercial purposes.

So if US can do that, why not other countries.

If it made a special arrangement, so can China make a special arrangement for just Pakistan, while still follow the NSG rules for rest of the countries.

Strange hypocrisy from the US, it wanted billions in revenues for its nuclear industry, it suspended / bended the laws, now others want to help their friendly countries, the US has a problem.

You won't find another best example of hypocrisy anywhere else in the world, other then the USA.

When it comes to democracy, it wants peoples voice to be heard in each and every country of the world & democracy to flourish, but for its own purposes, it supports the regimes in the middle east as well as in other countries.

Raises voice of human rights concern about countries which are hostile to it, while supports countries for its own use who are indulging in human rights violations.

Goes to war and kills hundreds of thousands by presenting false information at world body and then justifies it with lies and more lies, while when others go to war for legitimate reasons, it bans and sanctions them.

Supports Israel in killings thousands mercilessly, while if another country does the same, then again goes to war or sanctions in.

Best hypocrite of the world.

Hypocrisy..no hypocrisy is not the point here...the US-Indo deal was approved by everyone including China. If China does not have the clout to do the same that is not a US problem.