US objects to China-Pakistan nuclear deal

[muse]

The Talib camps in Karachi has been there since the Russian Invasion in Afganistan? I am really puzzle that you would make that sentence, when there are clear proof of those same school existinting today....

Jeypore:

I'm not quite sure what you are pointing to, perhaps it maybe a problem of imprecise language - if I understand you correctly, you may be pointing to refugee communities as talib (Afghan) camps, if this is what you are rfeferring to, then certainly from a particular point of view we can refer to these communities as "Talib camps", however, I would suggest that this is at best misleading and we should try to be more precise so that we are all on the same page when it comes to basics.

I have offered that you may want tostudy Guistozzi with regard to how Pakistani Talib and their Afghan cousins are similar and dissimilar - additionally, may I offer that you also examine how the Talib phenomenon fits into the notion of Pashtun nationalism.

However, all of this is a sideline with regard to the confusion within NATO about who is in charge, and what the strategic vision ought to be, such that all stakeholders, and here I am referring to the neighbors and internal stakeholders can buy into this vision of a unified Afghnaistan as a nation state. Seems to me that we must move away, with great speed, from this notion of zero sum games - a unified nation state in Afghanistan CANNOT be one that is in any camp other than one it's immediate neighbors agree upon and see their best interests in.

So how does the NSG issue fit into this? Seems to me that this is generally a non-issue -- some powers will seek to handle this issue a point of leverage - in reality, of course, it is not, after all, can they prevent this deal? So, it's important to not overplay this point of leverage - things can always go from bad to worse - this brings up, in my mind, the larger issue of how the US may extricate itself while maintaining leverage and influence.

Some observers and analysts have prescribed that US withhold mechanism that can assist further the flow of capital and access to markets in places afflicted by insurgency, terrorism and extremism as public and private politcal method -- does this idea have merit? After all, has not the experience of Iraq and Afghanistan and Somalia and Yemen, Iran, Pakistan, etc. not go to suggest that this policy needs a rethink? I would encourage readers to consider all the interlocking conditions in which these ills flourish.

Some point to Saudi society as evidence that access to capital and markets will not act to attenuate extremist ideas in society and their influence upon instruments of governance -- here, I would argue that this is a rather shallow argument - Saudi society is an anomaly, on the surface it is well to do, however, just beneath the surface the unwillingness to deal with social and political problems, has the effect of concocting a "witch's brew" which expresses itself as support for extremist ideas. So why does the same not apply to Pakistan or Iran and such? Because these polities substantially different, particularly in their determination that they not only have problems but that these problems can be attenuated by integration in global trading systems.

just my 2 cents.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

I would call hypocrites populations who hate America but stand in lines in front of our consulates begging to be let in and once in continue to hate our policies,our government,our way of life while continuing to enjoy the opportunities and life given by the country they hate so much. Now that is blatant hypocrisy if you want an example.

Do you have any idea how much skill set Pakistan exports to America and how much the yanks earn frm that.. ! i can provide countless examples .. !

And do you know how those ppl find it very difficult in your country , thanks to ppl like you .. !!!. Despite all that they pull through .. !

Unfortunately your comment speaks out loud the hate you have for my nation and my countrymen.
Yanki land is a land of opertunity , no question abt it , but those racits bastards aint give a **** if you dnt have smthing of value smthing which might help them ... !!!
Those Pakistanis who land in US are purely capable and suffise the merits which even bypasses the extent of racism and hatered they bear ..!!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As I said.. No matter how you spin it, you can not lay the claim about the eligibility of India and Pakistan being same for getting a waiver and Pakistan not getting it due to discrimination.

Given the lack of any metrics governing 'exemptions' I cannot say anything about the eligibility of any State getting a waiver. The West and Chinese are after all, in the West's own claims, responsible for large amounts of the proliferation that occurred in AQ Khan's network, yet they are part of the NSG. Until metrics applicable to all states are established, nothing can be said about the eligibility of India being better than that of Pakistan.

To top it all Pakistan hasnt even approached NSG for a waiver and is already cribbing discrimination.

The NSG is clear about 'no nuclear trade with NPT non-signatories' and the waiver granted to India was itself a violation of the NSG guidelines, and brought about by the US, France and Russia strong arming the remaining NSG members into violating the NSG guidelines and issuing the waiver. Under what process (since there is none) should Pakistan 'apply for a waiver'? Could you point out where in the NSG charter/guidelines this process for obtaining an exemption exists?

Also your comment about skeletons in West or China's closets, well some caught stealing can not point a finger at the victims past record of theft and ask the victim to let the present thief's crime slide because of that.

Nonsense - there is nothing 'past theft' about the allegations of Western nations and China proliferating to Pakistan and Israel. All of this occurred in the time that AQ Khan was active, and a lot of it occurred through entities in the West and China (according to the West's own allegations) cooperating with the AQ Khan network, so your attempt to mask the far greater sins of the West by painting them as 'past sins' is just a canard and an inaccurate assertion. The West's sins of proliferation are just as recent as AQ Khan's - a few years here and there don't amount to much.

About violation of NSG charters, I dont think they care about Pakistan's opinion on that. Its a group of countries that work together to prevent nuclear proliferation while encouraging peaceful use of nuclear technology. And thats the purpose of the guidelines...

Keeping in mind the objective and not just the process (spirit and letter), they as a consensus believed that trade with India does not violate their purpose and bingo..

Obviously they don't 'care' about Pakistan's position, since they are have clearly violated their own guidelines to grant an arbitrary and discriminatory exemption to India. And the purpose of the guidelines is rather opaque at this point because the NSG violated them in giving India an exemption, and because the NSG has States as members that are allegedly responsible for far more outward proliferation than Pakistan has ever engaged in. On encouraging the peaceful use of nuclear technology, the NSG appears to be violating that as well, since it is objecting to a Sino-Pak contract on setting up two civilian reactors for generating power that would be under IAEA safeguards, and on a broader level is preventing greater civilian nuclear cooperation with Pakistan to generate more power. There is nothing, in terms of the purposes of its guidelines that your outlined, that the NSG cannot be said to have violated at this point.

btw, is there a charter/document that says that NSG guidelines mandates only dealing with NPT signatories??

There is a very specific and central part of the NSG charter that states that there will be no nuclear trade with NPT non-signatories. The rest follows from there as explained in my earlier post.

 

[ramu]

I think this objection by US is symbolic and if Pakistan still goes ahead with the covert deal with China, Pakistan can kiss the actual deal good bye. Not just with US but with the rest of the world.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

For the few who actually end up comitting a crime there are hundreds more who have actually been nipped in the bud or could not carry out their desired activity due to limitations on their part, to access the material and knowhow to do so.

MI-5 in Britain had to go for a substanital increase in their survellance capability, both material and human to cope with the rise of Islamic radicalism in Britain (somehow Bagladeshis who are also Muslim are seldom involved in such activities and there are quiet a few of them in Britain). Needless to say nearly all the terrorists caught were either Pakistani or of Pkaistani origin. Gordon Brown went to the extent to say that nearly 2/3rd's of all the terror acts in Braitain originated in Pakistan. Scores of Pakistanis have been arrested in Britain for terror related activities, these numbers are matched by the Pakistnis in the US now.

Even if you take a raito of total population to number of terrorits, Pakistanis top the charts from Braitain to the USA, no other ethnic group comes even close.

The situation is so bad in the US that it is normal for Pakistanis to pose as Indians to get jobs and other stuff.

Still coincidence? or am i plain wrong?

Pleas provide the stats substantiating all of your claims, in terms of the fact that these are all Pakistanis that immigrated to other nations and not people born there, otherwise your comments are nothing but nonsense denigrating Pakistanis. And stats and evidence substantiating the rest of the blubber you expelled as well.

Had this been the case with Pakistanis in just the US, your argument could have been considered as having some merit. But as we all know that throught Europe, specially in Britain and Netherlands, Pakistanis have failed to integrate with the mainstream society. So much so that you see the rise of cities like Bradford in England and the ghetto mentality elsewhere. They dont want to integrate, instead holding on to policies and practies as if they were back home.

Other ethnic communities have had a much better record in this regard, the opportunities are there, only that some people are unwilling to take them.

The failure of Pakistanis to integrate in the US (though the situation is better there than Europe) is not just an isolated example but the common trend with Pakistanis as a whole.

My argument has complete merit, you just cannot see through your bias. I'll point it out one more time. The 5 individuals arrested in Pakistan were, AFAIK, American born and raised citizens, not Pakistanis. Two of them were not Pakistani origin. In addition, the 911 hijackers, Richard Reid, Major Hassan, Christmas bomber, the Somali arrests, Zazi etc. etc. all neither Pakistanis or American born citizens of non-Pakistani origin. So no, your rant is just that, distortion and obfuscation of the facts in an attempt to denigrate Pakistanis.

Its like the pot calling the kettle black. I find it amusing that you expect people to buy such a naive argument.

They were American born citizens who got radicalized in the US, what would you call them other than an 'American export of terror' to other nations, since Indians love to use that phrase when cases like Faisal Shehzad occur?

The only things that the Americans seem to be exporting to Pakistin effectively at the moment are Drone Attacks and a good amount of Aid. Somehow the people of Pakistan are ungreatful for both.

The aid doesn't even come close to the economic losses borne by Pakistan as a result of a hasty and flawed US invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent insurgency sparked in Pakistan - what is there to be grateful about it that?

Instead of just ranting and distorting the facts to denigrate Pakistan, take a breath and do some objective analysis of events and read some more.


BTW, if some Pakistanis are indeed having to hide their identity in the US (I know of only one, but I am sure there are others) then that is a reflection of the fact that they expect to be discriminated against in the US, and that is a poor reflection on America, not on Pakistanis.

 

[ramu]

AgNoStIc MuSliM,

Go to the first few pages and we have been through this. The rules of a club are defined by the members and if the members have made an exception about someone, it does not qualify each and everyone to be an exception. The reasoning of why a member is treated as an exception to the rule is based on the rational of the members and not your or my rules.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think this objection by US is symbolic and if Pakistan still goes ahead with the covert deal with China, Pakistan can kiss the actual deal good bye. Not just with US but with the rest of the world.

Kiss it goodbye? Hardly. The objections to a full fledged NSG waiver will remain the same as they were before, therefore the implementation of this particular deal will have no impact on a potential NSG waiver for Pakistan.

If anything, given that the PAEC has planned on absorbing a lot of technical know-how from these two reactors (continuing from the first two), Pakistan could, in the future, put itself in a position to export key nuclear technology for peaceful purposes to other developing States for servicing and maintenance purposes. Pakistan could even offer enrichment technology to NSG States like Turkey and some Latin American nations that are not favored by certain powerful NSG members to receive it, in an attempt to force the NSG to recognize Pakistan and grant it a waiver, so that Pakistan's trade can be regulated as well.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Qs pls
Does the US realy objected the deal or is jst another up in the air, If yes than how they gona stop Pakistan and China frm going ahead with that deal . . . Hw Hw.. By enforcing sanctions . . . .???

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AgNoStIc MuSliM,

Go to the first few pages and we have been through this. The rules of a club are defined by the members and if the members have made an exception about someone, it does not qualify each and everyone to be an exception. The reasoning of why a member is treated as an exception to the rule is based on the rational of the members and not your or my rules.

I have been on this thread from pretty much the beginning, I know what has been discussed, and that argument was debunked and has been debunked again in the last couple of pages.

It is you who has to read a little more carefully.

 

[ramu]

Kiss it goodbye? Hardly. The objections to a full fledged NSG waiver will remain the same as they were before, therefore the implementation of this particular deal will have no impact on a potential NSG waiver for Pakistan.

If anything, given that the PAEC has planned on absorbing a lot of technical know-how from these two reactors (continuing from the first two), Pakistan could, in the future, put itself in a position to export key nuclear technology for peaceful purposes to other developing States for servicing and maintenance purposes. Pakistan could even offer enrichment technology to NSG States like Turkey and some Latin American nations that are not favored by certain powerful NSG members to receive it, in an attempt to force the NSG to recognize Pakistan and grant it a waiver, so that Pakistan's trade can be regulated as well.

By having the US sit against the deal the chances of a full NSG waiver is negligible. Pakistan will cement its ties with China but it is unlikely to go down well with many other countries. You can make the most effective argument to debunk everything under the sun but it is clear that India got the deal with France, Canada, US and Russia in its team. Not because of anything else.

If Pakistan cannot have a power packed team on its side, all Pakistan can do is ... Having A deal with China is not the start you would wish for under such circumstances.

 

[ramu]

I have been on this thread from pretty much the beginning, I know what has been discussed, and that argument was debunked and has been debunked again in the last couple of pages.

It is you who has to read a little more carefully.

OK, you know more and I know less but we are speculating about Pakistan's chances. Time will tell the difference between what you believe and what is reality.

 

[Ras]

Do you have any idea how much skill set Pakistan exports to America and how much the yanks earn frm that.. ! i can provide countless examples .. !

And do you know how those ppl find it very difficult in your country , thanks to ppl like you .. !!!. Despite all that they pull through .. !

Unfortunately your comment speaks out loud the hate you have for my nation and my countrymen.
Yanki land is a land of opertunity , no question abt it , but those racits bastards aint give a **** if you dnt have smthing of value smthing which might help them ... !!!
Those Pakistanis who land in US are purely capable and suffise the merits which even bypasses the extent of racism and hatered they bear ..!!!

Wrong...Pakistanis are most welcome to immigrate as are anyone else.I have absolutely no problem with Pakistanis...only those (be they of any nationality not just from Pakistan) who come here to enjoy the opportunities in my country but hate it for everything else.

As for your bash on yanks(I am taking this to mean white Americans),let me tell you about an incident which happened recently..couple of days back at work we had a fire drill.As we guys were standing outside waiting for the all clear,a colleague of mine a Pakistani was standing a bit away on his own away from the groups which had formed outside.Seeing this another colleague, a Jordanian said loudly "Is it a coincidence that we have an emergency signal and everyone is standing away from the Pakistani?". He seemed to think it was very funny but was quickly asked to refrain from this by another colleague, a member of the much maligned "white" American group....ironic?

 

[ramu]

Qs pls
Does the US realy objected the deal or is jst another up in the air, If yes than how they gona stop Pakistan and China frm going ahead with that deal . . . Hw Hw.. By enforcing sanctions . . . .???

US will not put any effort in coming in between China and Pakistan. This objection is just a way of registering its displeasure and at an opportune moment, US will show why taking notice of its concerns is paramount to win its backing. Wait and see ...

The clout US has was seen in the trade pact between Pak and Afghan and its time people know how easy it is for US to twist arms and get things done in a manner that it considers right.

 

[karan.1970]

Given the lack of any metrics governing 'exemptions' I cannot say anything about the eligibility of any State getting a waiver. The West and Chinese are after all, in the West's own claims, responsible for large amounts of the proliferation that occurred in AQ Khan's network, yet they are part of the NSG. Until metrics applicable to all states are established, nothing can be said about the eligibility of India being better than that of Pakistan.

True, but neither West not China is looking for buying/borrowing Nuclear technology. Same thing as my credit score / past borrowing record has no relevence if I never need to borrow any money. Also in this area, the NSG members belong to the Have group of nuclear know how. They dont need a certificate of acceptable behaviour to be a part of the NSG.

On metrics, its a futile arguement. Every discretion does not need to be backed by metrics that are made public. Its a lose organization of Nuclear suppliers that use a set of guidelines (not rules/laws/commandments) to guide their trade with other countries. By definition, these guidelines are not binding...

The NSG is clear about 'no nuclear trade with NPT non-signatories' and the waiver granted to India was itself a violation of the NSG guidelines, and brought about by the US, France and Russia strong arming the remaining NSG members into violating the NSG guidelines and issuing the waiver. Under what process (since there is none) should Pakistan 'apply for a waiver'? Could you point out where in the NSG charter/guidelines this process for obtaining an exemption exists?

Can you point me to a charter that says NSG members are prohibited from trading with non NPT signatories under all circumstances?? And again.. you violate laws, not guidelines...Guidelines by nature are to guide not enforce...

Nonsense - there is nothing 'past theft' about the allegations of Western nations and China proliferating to Pakistan and Israel. All of this occurred in the time that AQ Khan was active, and a lot of it occurred through entities in the West and China (according to the West's own allegations) cooperating with the AQ Khan network, so your attempt to mask the far greater sins of the West by painting them as 'past sins' is just a canard and an inaccurate assertion. The West's sins of proliferation are just as recent as AQ Khan's - a few years here and there don't amount to much.

My stress was not on PAST per se. Today, Pakistan is going to USA and asking for a nuclear deal. The West is telling Pakistan about its proliferation record and hence implying that Pakistan does not deserve a nuclear deal. Now understand that its Pakistan needing something from USA and not hte other way round. Highlighting USA's participation in the same crime does not make the activity all right. Unfortunately, USA does not need this deal from anyone and hence their record on proliferation does not come into picture. Pakistan does, and its record (which is not good at all) is spoiling the party..

Its like my earlier example of borrowing. Your logic of USA being involved in proliferation is parallel to a rejected loan applicant calling bank a hypocrite, because just like the rejected applicant, the bank also is in a bad financial position...Tell me, would that help the applicant with a bad score if the bank deciding on the loan itself has had financial trouble. Actually a bank with financial issues will be even more strict..

Obviously they don't 'care' about Pakistan's position, since they are have clearly violated their own guidelines to grant an arbitrary and discriminatory exemption to India. And the purpose of the guidelines is rather opaque at this point because the NSG violated them in giving India an exemption, and because the NSG has States as members that are allegedly responsible for far more outward proliferation than Pakistan has ever engaged in. On encouraging the peaceful use of nuclear technology, the NSG appears to be violating that as well, since it is objecting to a Sino-Pak contract on setting up two civilian reactors for generating power that would be under IAEA safeguards, and on a broader level is preventing greater civilian nuclear cooperation with Pakistan to generate more power. There is nothing, in terms of the purposes of its guidelines that your outlined, that the NSG cannot be said to have violated at this point.

There is a very specific and central part of the NSG charter that states that there will be no nuclear trade with NPT non-signatories. The rest follows from there as explained in my earlier post.

Do point me to the above central part if possible.. Will save me some digging..

Also, if you read the purpose of guidelines clearly on the peaceful use, it qualifies it with a condition of avoiding proliferation and that is the biggest stumbling block for Pakistan. The confidence level of the the countries you are going to ask a waiver from is extremely low in the case of Pakistan. Like it or not, they are the ones to decide if Pakistan gets a formal approval to use this technology.

 

[khurasaan1]

No I have a lot of evidence...you can get it to.a simple google search will do. I suggest start with a pew poll done some months back.

Nobody Hates America...but the evil practices and hypocrisy played by the ruling class there...whereas the ordinary people of america who in fact worked hard and built America are great pplz ..they are very cooporative and generous......Inshallah soon very soon this evil class will be thrown out of America and even from this world to make it a real free of evil and peaceful....