US NAVAL BASE ,On BD !! True Or Lie ??

[GR!FF!N]

@ Even now if war breaks out between China and India, I have lot of doubts about Chinese weapons specially on aircrafts and accuracy of Missiles ????? In 1962 India was a very weak country in respect of military soon they had acquired a good armament to defend themselves.

@ Why can't you believe that China was a isolated country for many years and still it is isolated. Whatever technology they acquired once they had a short time cordial relations with USSR and that's all. With that technology they are just copying and pesting here and there. Not a single Western Block country had helped China in this aspects.

i think you replied against a wrong post.it seems that you are apparantly supporting my points.

So it is just your opinion then?

Learn to start an argument and I may decide to spend my time on you.

opinion???i just asked that which type of proof you want..you tell me..then i'll post details about weapons system.or else,others will think i'm bashing china here..

 

[UKBengali]

I could not understand your argument. Please clarify in short easy to understand sentences.

I do not know internal situation of Bangladesh and its political parties well. I would trust idune Bhai and Munshi Bhai's opinion on this. China at this moment is no replacement for the US to help us establish a good relation with Myanmar and ASEAN countries.

Pakistan and Bangladesh have very different geopolitical situations due to difference in geography. For ASEAN, USA is much more important, even more so than China, so we need to go with a US supported ASEAN, it is quite simple if you think about it.

For Pakistan, SCO and China is more important, once US leaves Afghanistan. It will be better for USA/NATO to hand over Afghanistan to SCO as in my opinion USA/NATO have no business in that region in the first place, it would have been better for USA to allow Soviets to take over Afghanistan at the time and not use Pakistan and Saudi extremists to oust Soviets from there, which has created this "terrorism" nonsense. On the other hand Russia and China should give up Assad and let USA/NATO/Turkey/GCC handle Syria and Assad.

You have to look at regional situation and developing multi-lateral institutions to understand which power has relevance where. For ASEAN, USA will remain relevant for decades to come and China will have negligible role except for trade and economics, in my opinion.

China may become important for ASEAN, only when it can have a bigger economy and more powerful military than all Western nations combined (USA/Canada/EU/ANZ), which we may not see in 30-50 years or more. Right this moment Chinese GDP is 7.3 trillion whereas Western nations combined GDP is about 36 trillion, you can see the difference right there.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned the EU is more of a economic power than a military block.

Just 2-3 US aircraft carrier battlegroups are at least as powerful as the whole of the EU navy combined.
The EU's tanks and land-based airplanes will not have much relevance in Asian conflicts unless there
is a long-term military build-up with basing rights.

I am also curious as to this 30-50 year time that is foreacast when most(even westerrn sources) now predict
that China's economy will be larger than the West combined by or before 2030.

Remember that China will catch up very quickly in US dollar terms as it's currency will keep appreciating
against the Dollar/Euro for the next decade or more, so just saying 7.4 trillion versus 34 trillion
makes little sense.

 

[GR!FF!N]

NATO??? Huh, Nato is zero without USA.

thats maybe your thought.but Nato holds other powerful countries too...its Nato forces that fought in Libya,Iraq,Afganistan and other battlefields.no way you can nullify power and reach of Britain,France and other members.they are still representing technologically and economically most strongest block history has ever seen(now don't bring euro zone crisis here).

 

[UKBengali]

i think you replied against a wrong post.it seems that you are apparantly supporting my points.




opinion???i just asked that which type of proof you want..you tell me..then i'll post details about weapons system.or else,others will think i'm bashing china here..

If you thought a little bit more before blindly replying with emotion then you will actually understand that I did not mean "proof" at all. That is almost impossible to obtain.

The best way to really measure the sort of performance that Chinese weapons are at is to look at what the Chinese can purchase but choose not to.

They could purchase SU-35 which is thought to be at least on par with anything but the F-22 but they do not. They obviously think their J-11B is up to the job there. Also no purchases of T-90 tanks as they probably are very confident in the ability of their T-99 tank.

Also another way to measure Chinese technological levels is to highlight the fact they they chose to reject a Russian offer to co-develop the PAK-FA and went their own way with the J-20.


This is the sort of logical arguments that is all too often missing.

 

[kalu_miah]

As far as the rest of the world is concerned the EU is more of a economic power than a military block.

Just 2-3 US aircraft carrier battlegroups are at least as powerful as the whole of the EU navy combined.
The EU's tanks and land-based airplanes will not have much relevance in Asian conflicts unless there
is a long-term military build-up with basing rights.

I am also curious as to this 30-50 year time that is foreacast when most(even westerrn sources) now predict
that China's economy will be larger than the West combined by or before 2030.

Remember that China will catch up very quickly in US dollar terms as it's currency will keep appreciating
against the Dollar/Euro for the next decade or more, so just saying 7.4 trillion versus 34 trillion
makes little sense.

USA is of course the main military for NATO, without USA NATO is a joke. But Western nations have about a billion population, which is not a joke and their technology is more advanced than China. 30-50 years is a conservative estimate. China has a problem with its governing one party system which is not sustainable.

The declining dollar value and rising yuan is a valid point, but China's rise will slow down while West will not fall that much, as China's wage rises higher.

The most important thing for Bangladesh is that our only option for survival against Indian threat is to join ASEAN group, which will be in the US camp for the foreseeable future. So whichever way ASEAN goes, so goes Bangladesh, and by default we have no choice but to become an important part of the US Asian pivot plan to contain China, base or no base.

And India is a friendly nation to USA, yes, but by no means USA=India. India will be involved both in Asian pivot plan of USA and in SCO to stabilize the Central Asian region. It has its own geopolitics depending on its geography and interests. India will try to prevent our entry into ASEAN as this will mean that we will no longer be an Indian vassal state. But for us, this ASEAN is our only way out, the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[GR!FF!N]

They could purchase SU-35 which is thought to be at least on par with anything but the F-22 but they do not. They obviously think their J-11B is up to the job there. Also no purchases of T-90 tanks as they probably are very confident in the ability of their T-99 tank.

Also another way to measure Chinese technological levels is to highlight the fact they they chose to reject a Russian offer to co-develop the PAK-FA and went their own way with the J-20.

1st.almost every chinese members said that the news regarding su-35 is false,they are not persuing it.and if the news is true,then Russia wanted them to sign some treaty so that they couldn't copy the techs that are used in su-35.now,they can't buy weapons from west,as arms embergo is still on place.

2nd.China's policy is to reduce importing arms as they want to make weapons by themselves.thats the reason they are currently no purchasing any weapons from outside.China copied s-300,but according to reports,those are not as good as original s-300,but still they stick with it when countries want to purchase s-400 now.it is a good sign for China's future.but it doesn't make China's weapons better than countries who have huge experiences to make them for decades now.

3rd.Russia never offered China to co-develop Pak-Fa..provide some link on that.

J-20 is maturing,but nobody expects it will be as stealthy as F-22 or F-35(again for the same reason,USA is producing and using stealth techs for decades now).

India built INSAS when India could easily go for more advanced weapons,but it sticked with the INSAS for several reasons and built nearly million copies.but that doesn't make INSAS better than M-16/4,AKs future version or Tavor..same goes for Indian missiles.got that???

 

[eastwatch]

Remember that China will catch up very quickly in US dollar terms as it's currency will keep appreciating against the Dollar/Euro for the next decade or more, so just saying 7.4 trillion versus 34 trillion
makes little sense.

It is not only you but all others simply equate economy with the military strength. It sure has some relationship, but it is only upto a certain extent. It is not always that only a strong economy counts. Think of Japan. Its economy is half that of the USA. But, its military might may be 1/100th that of US. Even if Japan decides to arm itself it cannot just match the resource-backed economy of the USA.

No one really can predict a future economy because it is not a pure science. But, in any case, USA will remain the only superpower in the world at least for the next century. Someday, Russia may rise because it is also supported by its resources and technology. China lacks resources and energy, just like EU. Search for energy in the sea has caused conflict with all its neighbours.Its economy is vulnerable if the world trade basic rules suddenly change.

So, do not put all your eggs in the Chinese basket. USA is pressing China to abide by the UN rules to demarcate its EEZ in the sea. China does not heed and is contesting for every inch of sea near its shore that has forced USA to shore up its naval strength in the south pacific. Not only that, USA wants to deny BoB oil/gas to China. This is why USA is trying to make a strong presence in this area that also includes Bangladesh.

 

[UKBengali]

1st.almost every chinese members said that the news regarding su-35 is false,they are not persuing it.and if the news is true,then Russia wanted them to sign some treaty so that they couldn't copy the techs that are used in su-35.now,they can't buy weapons from west,as arms embergo is still on place.

2nd.China's policy is to reduce importing arms as they want to make weapons by themselves.thats the reason they are currently no purchasing any weapons from outside.China copied s-300,but according to reports,those are not as good as original s-300,but still they stick with it when countries want to purchase s-400 now.it is a good sign for China's future.but it doesn't make China's weapons better than countries who have huge experiences to make them for decades now.

3rd.Russia never offered China to co-develop Pak-Fa..provide some link on that.

J-20 is maturing,but nobody expects it will be as stealthy as F-22 or F-35(again for the same reason,USA is producing and using stealth techs for decades now).

India built INSAS when India could easily go for more advanced weapons,but it sticked with the INSAS for several reasons and built nearly million copies.but that doesn't make INSAS better than M-16/4,AKs future version or Tavor..same goes for Indian missiles.got that???

Did I ever say that Chinese weapons are better than those of outside?

The logic is that since China could purchase a weapon like Russian Su-35, which is rated equal to anything bar F-22, then it would have purchased that if it's home-grown planes were significantly worse. This means that there is nothing special in the SU-35 that the Chinese desperately want. by deduction, the J-11B is as good or at worse slightly inferior, to the SU-35.

Now, your comment on the J-20 is interesting. Stealth is around 80% shape and 20% materials. China basically copied the F-22s frontal shape as a "short-cut" to obtain a very stealthy aircraft.
This means that the Chinese indirectly used American experience to provide a near peer to the F-22. While I can agree that the J-20 will be inferior in electronics than the F-22, it does not seem
that it will be massively so when you consider the vast experience the Chinese already have in AESA radars on platforms such as the Type-052C destroyer, KJ-2000 AWACs and HQ-9 SAM radars. Chinese current experience, manpower and sheer amount of money will create a figher that will finally propel China to the forefront of fighter aircraft technology.

Got that?

It is not only you but all others simply equate economy with the military strength. It sure has some relationship, but it is only upto a certain extent. It is not always that only a strong economy counts. Think of Japan. Its economy is half that of the USA. But, its military might may be 1/100th that of US. Even if Japan decides to arm itself it cannot just match the resource-backed economy of the USA.

No one really can predict a future economy because it is not a pure science. But, in any case, USA will remain the only superpower in the world at least for the next century. Someday, Russia may rise because it is also supported by its resources and technology. China lacks resources and energy, just like EU. Search for energy in the sea has caused conflict with all its neighbours.Its economy is vulnerable if the world trade basic rules suddenly change.

So, do not put all your eggs in the Chinese basket. USA is pressing China to abide by the UN rules to demarcate its EEZ in the sea. China does not heed and is contesting for every inch of sea near its shore that has forced USA to shore up its naval strength in the south pacific. Not only that, USA wants to deny BoB oil/gas to China. This is why USA is trying to make a strong presence in this area that also includes Bangladesh.

Japan is not a good example as it is tiny and also is a dependent state of the US.

 

[Md Akmal]

i think you replied against a wrong post.it seems that you are apparently supporting my points.

@ No !!! I supported your point. I told you I was in China and closely observed their development. You know the Chinese army even does not have proper helmet and shoes.

@ 20/25 years back their troops used to fight with PT shoes. Their army even do not have proper belt. Their logistic system is still in a rudimentary stage.

 

[eastwatch]

And India is a friendly nation to USA, yes, but by no means USA=India. India will be involved both in Asian pivot plan of USA and in SCO to stabilize the Central Asian region. It has its own geopolitics depending on its geography and interests. India will try to prevent our entry into ASEAN as this will mean that we will no longer be an Indian vassal state. But for us, this ASEAN is our only way out, the light at the end of the tunnel.

Why do you think BD wants to be an ASEAN member. Every organization has its basic rules. ASEAN encompasses the region of south east asia. It has no obligation to include Bangladesh, a south asian country. ASEAN will remain limited upto Burma that lies also in the SE Asia. I have never heard this sort of things before. However, Bangladesh will remain a member of ASEAN Forum like some other countries. Some countries have again observer status.

 

[eastwatch]

Japan is not a good example as it is tiny and also is a dependent state of the US.

So, why do you think or rather, I would say, imagine China can compete against the USA when its military cannot project its strength across the sea to formosa/Taiwan? A big size population is good for defending its own territory. This number can go down the south to capture a few lands here and there. But, it will be contested.

No way, china will ever supersede USA only because it has a very big population. There will be a qualitative improvements in the military of China. But it is only in relative terms between its past and future strength. Its military will never equal that of the USA.

 

[Md Akmal]

Why do you think BD wants to be an ASEAN member. Every organization has its basic rules. ASEAN encompasses the region of south east asia. It has no obligation to include Bangladesh, a south asian country. ASEAN will remain limited upto Burma that lies also in the SE Asia. I have never heard this sort of things before. However, Bangladesh will remain a member of ASEAN Forum like some other countries. Some countries have again observer status.

@ If the then East Pakistan can be a member of SEATO (South East Asia Treaty Organization) whose HQ was at Manila, than why not ASEAN ????? Association of South East Asian Nation (ASEAN) is economic forum where as SEATO was a military forum. From the very beginning China was against this ASEAN.

@ In the present contest SEATO is no more alive but its economic forum still exists.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Did I ever say that Chinese weapons are better than those of outside?

The logic is that since China could purchase a weapon like Russian Su-35, which is rated equal to anything bar F-22, then it would have purchased that if it's home-grown planes were significantly worse. This means that there is nothing special in the SU-35 that the Chinese desperately want. by deduction, the J-11B is as good or at worse slightly inferior, to the SU-35.

Now, your comment on the J-20 is interesting. Stealth is around 80% shape and 20% materials. China basically copied the F-22s frontal shape as a "short-cut" to obtain a very stealthy aircraft.
This means that the Chinese indirectly used American experience to provide a near peer to the F-22. While I can agree that the J-20 will be inferior in electronics than the F-22, it does not seem
that it will be massively so when you consider the vast experience the Chinese already have in AESA radars on platforms such as the Type-052C destroyer, KJ-2000 AWACs and HQ-9 SAM radars. Chinese current experience, manpower and sheer amount of money will create a figher that will finally propel China to the forefront of fighter aircraft technology.

Got that?

you said this in your post #19

Chinese military technology nowhere near US?

Type-052C destroyer, KJ-2000 AWACs, HQ-9C SAM, Type-99 Tank and DF-31A/DF-41 ICBM?!s

You are seriously overestimating US technological superiority.

What advantage that the US has will be virtually wiped out when the likes of J-20 fighter, Type-052D destroyer and Type-095 SSNs are out before the end of tis decade.

and i just made some points why China's weapons are inferior than USA's..thats all..su-35 is more advanced version of su-27/30 which China produced under J-11 and they upgraded it with under the name J-11b(don't count on Chinese fanboys who says J-11b is different aircraft)..even India don't want to buy Su-35,because further modification can make Su-30mki almost on par su-35(except maybe 3d tvc and some other techs),so why should we buy new platforms.by the way,"Su-35 is not equal to anything bar F-22",it is another 4.5 jet with some 5th gen tech.thats all.


2nd.Stealth is not around 80% shape and 20% materials.and do you think just coping some section can make aircraft stealth??VLO techs are as important as various passive sensors.you can reduce RCS with some VLO paints or modify some structure of an aircraft(Super sukhoi Upgrade),but it doesn't make your aircraft all around stealth,just partial(like Eurofighter,unlike F-22 or F-35).and now,China built several new AESA platforms,but they are not nose mounted AESA.it takes years to miniaturize AESA radar that fits on nose cone of an aircraft.see,Dassault and Eurofighter groups unveiled their AESA only one years ago(Which is inferior to USA's AESA,and with all the experience and available tech they come up only now when APG-79 is already in service for quite sometime now).i'm not underestimating China's tech,but most of these techs are either modified russian or some other country's techs.thats why,they are not par on USA which is still miles ahead.

 

[UKBengali]

So, why do you think or rather, I would say, imagine China can compete against the USA when its military cannot project its strength across the sea to formosa/Taiwan? A big size population is good for defending its own territory. This number can go down the south to capture a few lands here and there. But, it will be contested.

No way, china will ever supersede USA only because it has a very big population. There will be a qualitative improvements in the military of China. But it is only in relative terms between its past and future strength. Its military will never equal that of the USA.

You completely lose credibility there.

 

[eastwatch]

You completely lose credibility there.

Instead of talking circular give us some knowledge about the reason of your prediction that even the Chinese do not dare to predict. Note what I say. If USA wins nods from Burma that it will not allow oil or gas pipeline from its port to yunnan and gets a similar nod from Bd as well, USA will cause China to starve without energy.

The way China is stealing the oil resources of other pacific countries, USA may punish it for that by choking its ME oil route through the Malakka. This will succede only BD and Burma do not allow their land to transport the ME energy to Yunnan. So, China will be forced to vacate the parts of Pacific sea that it has occupied by its naval power.

All these prove that China has little energy to say of, and therefore, it cabnnot develop the way people like you are dreaming of.