US links future of joint jet engine development project to manufacture fighter plan

[waz]

Lol@sharing sensitive tech, the US doesn't do that.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Lol@sharing sensitive tech, the US doesn't do that.

But honestly bro, you should see our mainstream media. The way they have been propagating F16 and F18 jets and so called engine tech sharing now, it makes me feel if any young guy goes to his/her engineering college, he will get a blue print and all the stuff at component level which he can make in Engineering labs itself. I mean the whole engine comes with DIY level stuff. Including a kit of how to fabricate every part and all IPR are erased by a eraser and Billion of $$$ research is given out (of course for not less than a 1000 engine supply over lifetime of a fleet implying minimum 150+ jets of F16/F18 for sure.)

And in just few years every Indian engineer will be able to make a Jet engine which can power our aircraft fleet. That is the level the whole hype is played out.

 

[AugenBlick]

But honestly bro, you should see our mainstream media. The way they have been propagating F16 and F18 jets and so called engine tech sharing now, it makes me feel if any young guy goes to his/her engineering college, he will get a blue print and all the stuff at component level which he can make in Engineering labs itself. I mean the whole engine comes with DIY level stuff. Including a kit of how to fabricate every part and all IPR are erased by a eraser and Billion of $$$ research is given out (of course for not less than a 1000 engine supply over lifetime of a fleet implying minimum 150+ jets of F16/F18 for sure.)

And in just few years every Indian engineer will be able to make a Jet engine which can power our aircraft fleet. That is the level the whole hype is played out.

Why go to the media...even few Indians on this forum are like that.

 

[randomradio]

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USA not even share its core/sensitive technology with European, i dont understand how USA was willing to share it with indian. Lets wait and see what they share, the terms. Maybe they share as Russian did in FAGFA.

Indians will get alot of technology with this cooperation as it gets from FAGFA, the products it then developed is called indigenous, despite all the R & D is done by others

Lol@sharing sensitive tech, the US doesn't do that.

We will know for sure what tech they are willing to transfer in time. But they have signed agreements with us that are unique to only India and no one else, not even their European allies.

Even their jet engine transfer laws have been amended.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/wo...e-tech-transfer-policy-with-india/169490.html

The joint statement issued after the meeting said “the Department of Defence of US has updated its policy on gas turbine engine technology transfer to India”.

As a result of this policy update, the Secretary (Carter) is confident that the United States will be able to expand cooperation in production and design of jet engine components.

 

[hoangsa74]

The U.S licensed south korean, japan, turkey to produce F-16 jet, but the U.S did not transfer technologies to help those 3 produce fighter's engine.

If India somehow manages to receive help from the U.S to produce jet engine components, it would make India the top dog in the eyes of the U.S. India is receiving the special privilege from the U.S that none has ever received, congratz

 

[tore]

We will know for sure what tech they are willing to transfer in time. But they have signed agreements with us that are unique to only India and no one else, not even their European allies.

Even their jet engine transfer laws have been amended.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/wo...e-tech-transfer-policy-with-india/169490.html

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As i understand it, this mean that India is closer to USA then European, Australia & Canada. USA not even share sensitive technology with UK. They sell products, but not transfer of technology to European.

 

[randomradio]

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As i understand it, this mean that India is closer to USA then European, Australia & Canada. USA not even share sensitive technology with UK. They sell products, but not transfer of technology to European.

The Americans understand that the only way to cooperate with India would be co-developing weapons with India, not just selling some equipment in the short term. So industrial production and ToT plays a more important part if you want relations with India. The Americans are trying to copy the Russians there.

http://www.gktoday.in/blog/india-us-defence-framework-pact-and-dtti/

India’s interest in US Defence technology is mainly on technology transfer. The reason is that when we purchase the arms, we need support. If at any point, US denies of support, it can cripple critical equipments. When we opt for technology transfer, we have the knowledge of why and how of that equipment so it is less susceptible to a denial of support from the vendor. India acknowledges the technological superiority of the US weapon systems but it seeks partnership and not seller-buyer relationship.

If the Americans create roadblocks in ToT, then the partnership will not work. India will simply look towards Russia, Israel and France instead.

Also, whenever a country purchases something from the US and is promised ToT, it goes through Congress for approval. So this approval comes after the contract has been negotiated. Like Korea finished the F-35 contract and then Congress rejected ToT of 4 technologies. That won't happen with India. Parrikar has told the US to pre-approve technology before presenting. He's told the US MIC clearly not to waste India's time with technology that the Congress won't approve. That's why, for the F-18 and F-16, the Pentagon has given a written assurance that tech will be transferred. So now if we negotiate for something and then Congress doesn't approve it, the situation will be very different from the Korean deal.

 

[tore]

The Americans understand that the only way to cooperate with India would be co-developing weapons with India, not just selling some equipment in the short term. So industrial production and ToT plays a more important part if you want relations with India. The Americans are trying to copy the Russians there.

http://www.gktoday.in/blog/india-us-defence-framework-pact-and-dtti/


If the Americans create roadblocks in ToT, then the partnership will not work. India will simply look towards Russia, Israel and France instead.

Also, whenever a country purchases something from the US and is promised ToT, it goes through Congress for approval. So this approval comes after the contract has been negotiated. Like Korea finished the F-35 contract and then Congress rejected ToT of 4 technologies. That won't happen with India. Parrikar has told the US to pre-approve technology before presenting. He's told the US MIC clearly not to waste India's time with technology that the Congress won't approve. That's why, for the F-18 and F-16, the Pentagon has given a written assurance that tech will be transferred. So now if we negotiate for something and then Congress doesn't approve it, the situation will be very different from the Korean deal.

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Once India gets its hand on american cutting edge technology , i am sure India will use this against Pakistan . USA think India will join fighting china for USA, but i doubt India will go to war against China, neither will China go to war against India.Both knows they will get totally destroyed.

Conclusion is: America is rapidly providing weapons technology to India which will only be used against Pakistan. This is worrisome.

 

[waz]

We will know for sure what tech they are willing to transfer in time. But they have signed agreements with us that are unique to only India and no one else, not even their European allies.

Even their jet engine transfer laws have been amended.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/wo...e-tech-transfer-policy-with-india/169490.html

In time you will get to know it will amount to nothing much, and many senior posters know this. They don't share even their best stuff with us (UK) and we are their primary ally by a long shot. India doesn't even come close.

 

[randomradio]

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Once India gets its hand on american cutting edge technology , i am sure India will use this against Pakistan . USA think India will join fighting china for USA, but i doubt India will go to war against China, neither will China go to war against India.Both knows they will get totally destroyed.

Conclusion is: America is rapidly providing weapons technology to India which will only be used against Pakistan. This is worrisome.

That's guaranteed. But America wants to arm India in order to contain China, not target Pak.

In time you will get to know it will amount to nothing much, and many senior posters know this. They don't share even their best stuff with us (UK) and we are their primary ally by a long shot. India doesn't even come close.

For the UK, ToT is not a priority. For India, ToT is a priority.

Take the F-35 as an example. Even if the US doesn't give ToT, UK will still buy the F-35. But if India is offered the F-35 without ToT, India won't take it.

So if the US wants India to buy their weapons, they must offer ToT. We aren't the UK in that respect, so we will get a different treatment. And the US knows that if we don't buy their tech, we will buy it from somewhere else whereas the UK won't do that.

So the entire political situation is different. Even if US and UK are allied, the relationship is not the same, it is not on equal terms. India won't accept otherwise. So the US can take it or leave it.

 

[waz]

For the UK, ToT is not a priority. For India, ToT is a priority.

Take the F-35 as an example. Even if the US doesn't give ToT, UK will still buy the F-35. But if India is offered the F-35 without ToT, India won't take it.

So if the US wants India to buy their weapons, they must offer ToT. We aren't the UK in that respect, so we will get a different treatment. And the US knows that if we don't buy their tech, we will buy it from somewhere else whereas the UK won't do that.

So the entire political situation is different. Even if US and UK are allied, the relationship is not the same, it is not on equal terms. India won't accept otherwise. So the US can take it or leave it.

It was for a few things but I won't go into them, that's for another thread.
The US won't offer TOT to India for the F-35, remember the software issues for the plane for its allies?
The UK doesn't need to buy its own weapons, we can make them, do remember the Typhoon is essentially British. BAE also leads the world with cutting edge weapons.
As for India doing the whole "take it or leave it" approach, that remains to be seen.

 

[randomradio]

It was for a few things but I won't go into them, that's for another thread.
The US won't offer TOT to India for the F-35, remember the software issues for the plane for its allies?
The UK doesn't need to buy its own weapons, we can make them, do remember the Typhoon is essentially British. BAE also leads the world with cutting edge weapons.
As for India doing the whole "take it or leave it" approach, that remains to be seen.

The take it or leave it approach is guaranteed. Parrikar has already said that. That's the reason why Pentagon has given written assurances for the F-16 and F-18 ToT. In fact, India wasn't even ready to discuss the two jets for MII without Congress approval first.

As for the UK, the relationship is still not on equal basis. That's why the US treatment of the UK cannot be applied to India. If the US doesn't provide ToT, then we will only buy limited equipment from them, stuff that we don't want ToT for, like the P-8 or C-17. It's not a loss for India, we have other suppliers.

For example, we didn't think twice to reject the Javelin for the Spike after the Americans rejected ToT.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...issile-spike-over-us-javelin-missiles-2029136

To sweeten the deal, US had recently offer to co-produce and co-develop the missile. It had initially not agreed to provide critical technologies of the missile demanded by India and had also shown reluctance to make available the missiles for being evaluated by Indian experts in the field trials.

Now the Americans are pushing for co-developing a new 4th generation Javelin after having lost the deal for the 3rd gen version.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...s-to-Be-Revived/2016/04/09/article3370757.ece

Ahead of US Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter’s three-day visit to India on April 10, Ministry of Defence officials based in New Delhi are considering the revival of Pentagon’s offer to co-produce anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) systems for the Indian Army,

The F-35 won't be a big factor for India-US relations. We haven't shown interest in it, I only gave that as an example. The Pentagon has been pushing the IN to purchase the F-35B/C for the new carrier along with the EMALS tech. But the numbers will be so small that ToT won't matter in this case.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I love how it has upped the ante, now the deal has advanced to not just local production but includes transfer of engine tech. Anyone offering to sell will have to match that or do better.

The downside though is that all this is taking waaay too long. I hope it's worth it in the end and we are not left holding a turkey in the end.

The reality bro is that this hasn't upped the ante in any shape or form. On the face of it, this is the Americans matching the French offer (forget about the Swedes, they have little to offer here). But dive into the details and it is clear the Americans are still not offering even a fraction of the know how or strategic benefits and are merely hyping up outdated tech and screwdriver know how.

 

[wiseone2]

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Once India gets its hand on american cutting edge technology , i am sure India will use this against Pakistan . USA think India will join fighting china for USA, but i doubt India will go to war against China, neither will China go to war against India.Both knows they will get totally destroyed.

Conclusion is: America is rapidly providing weapons technology to India which will only be used against Pakistan. This is worrisome.

With American JDAMs the four to six week Kargil war is over in a week with minimal Indian casualties and massive Pakistani casualties

you are right to be worried

 

[idune]

There is always going to be heavy price to pay to get technology transfer from US for jet engine while dassault has already offered to upgrade and fine tune kaveri engine for Tejas for future upgrades

So india gave up on making an worthy engine and now French will make one under the label made in india. Big accomplishment for india