US lawmakers call Pakistan 'terrorist state', 'schizophrenic ally'

[Icarus]

Yes but you have been accused off being selective.

Accused, by men who have but seen the area on a map. I have fought there. Believe me when I say, there is no 'Selectiveness' in battle.

 

[Nitin Goyal]

Indeed it was, however, things between the US and Pak have not exactly been rosy since Musharraf left office. The incessant "Do More" mantra and Drone attacks were a constant bone of contention long before the OBL raid.

this were happening since mushy's time...if you have read the mushy's book he himself has written that they have transfer some 339 terrorists to US and earned millions in bounty...

 

[Jungibaaz]

i know..after all it is PDF..but tell you what,its me who is providing links and its you pakistani members who just shrugged it off by saying "where is the proof"???tell me,what is "enough hard evidence" for you guys???

About the article, they denied affiliations with LeT, they insisted that it was all humanitarian.
Another case of no proof. Just the word of Pakistanis against those who accuse us of being the bad guys.

What kind of argument is that?
At this point it would be best to block you unless you can post a valid argument of some sort rather then more links that you haven't read through.

 

[Nitin Goyal]

Because our success has resulted in a drop in terrorist attacks here but has yielded no significant improvements across the Durand Line.

if that is the case..why no one hear you ???? even karzai has blamed pakistan hundreds of time...remember OSama was found in pakistan not in Afganistan

 

[Jungibaaz]

leave them..for them,nothing is "hard evidence"...its just don't exists..

I'm not asking you to find evidence of terrorists flying JF-17s.
Some sort of evidence, dossiers recognized by our side too.
Even strong reasoning...

Al you've done so far is provide a few 'iffy' articles and told us to go read up on it.

what kind of response were you expecting from us?

 

[SP!TF!R3]

About the article, they denied affiliations with LeT, they insisted that it was all humanitarian.
Another case of no proof. Just the word of Pakistanis against those who accuse us of being the bad guys.

What kind of argument is that?
At this point it would be best to block you unless you can post a valid argument of some sort rather then more links that you haven't read through.

lol,but they are banned by UN...so,whatever JUD said,it doesn't count..nobody can't post more valid links than me...nice to talking to you buddy..

I'm not asking you to find evidence of terrorists flying JF-17s.
Some sort of evidence, dossiers recognized by our side too.
Even strong reasoning...

Al you've done so far is provide a few 'iffy' articles and told us to go read up on it.

what kind of response were you expecting from us?

thats the problem..i can post dossier on 26/11,but its not "Recognized" by your side..and why should they when they are their "Strategic asset"???

 

[Jungibaaz]

OSama was found in pakistan not in Afganistan

At another forum I'm at... an Indian just said the same thing as you.

Would you like me to post what I posted there in response to this post of yours?

I'm giving you the choice, perhaps it will ruin your day to see the OBL case debunked and torn to shreds.

 

[Icarus]

Men who matter actually don't need to see the map.

In that case, I have no regard or respect for their views. They can talk but they will never be able to substantiate.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Chinese militants have ties to Pakistan terror groups, official says | Fox News

Bibhu Prasad Routray: China complains about terrorism emanating from Pakistan

Please read a little more carefully next time - the allegations from the Chinese officials related to ties between terrorist groups in China and terrorist groups in Pakistan - the allegations do not claim that there are links between the Pakistani State or any State institutions and Chinese Terrorist groups.

 

[Icarus]

tell me,what is "Fact" for you guys???i provided your president's statement that said that Pakistan supported terrorism.i provided wiki links.hell..i even provided links that clearly stated the pak govt funded jamat-ud dawa...so,how much proof you guys want???want a confession from OBL or Hafeez Saeed himself???

And I rebutted all that material, were you even reading?

 

[Nitin Goyal]

At another forum I'm at... an Indian just said the same thing as you.

Would you like me to post what I posted there in response to this post of yours.

I'm giving you the choice, perhaps it will ruin your day to see the OBL case debunked and torn to shreds.

really...please do sir... it would be nice to know how OBL's wives and children found in pakistan... and then afridi case is fake...isn't it

Please read a little more carefully next time - the allegations from the Chinese officials related to ties between terrorist groups in China and terrorist groups in Pakistan - the allegations do not claim that there are links between the Pakistani State or any State institutions and Chinese Terrorist groups.

I Have made my point clear that pakistani soil has been used for terrorism against world

 

[Icarus]

if that is the case..why no one hear you ???? even karzai has blamed pakistan hundreds of time...remember OSama was found in pakistan not in Afganistan

No one listens to us because they need a scape goat, they want somebody to point to, other than themselves and say: "That's why your son's dead". As for Karazai, he's a puppet, he'll say whatever the US says. Indeed, however, we handed over 300 other wanted AQ terrorists to the US, proving that we want nothing to do with them.

 

[Hulk]

Because our success has resulted in a drop in terrorist attacks here but has yielded no significant improvements across the Durand Line.

Pakistan focused on militants targeting inside Pakistan but did not touched the other group.

 

[Jungibaaz]

really...please do sir... it would be nice to know how OBL's wives and children found in pakistan... and then afridi case is fake...isn't it

as you wish...

''Do you have any idea how funny the accusations against Pakistan are? sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Pakistan wasn't sheltering Bin Laden, nor would it gain a damn thing from sheltering Bin laden, I think we were hunting Bin Laden, just because he was found in Pakistan doesn't mean that OBL had support of the establishment, GoP, army or otherwise.

First of all, where did OBL even show up? and when? We know for a fact that prior to the invasion he was definitely in Afghanistan, we know that he had visited Pakistan before 9/11, it wouldn't be a big deal either, border is very porous, there is no focus on controlling the influx of Afghan refugees, immigrants, some 6 million live in Pakistan. But after 9/11, Al-Qaeda accused of being the perpetrates of 9/11, it was a known fact that Al-Qaeda operated mainly in Afghanistan, all arms, revenue, recruits and base of operations were in Afghanistan, not in Pakistan, no-one in Afghanistan had ever heard of this so called Al-Qaeda Mujahids, who would have heard or paid any attention to a few hundred looney armed with only assault rifles and aspirations of harming the US. In Pakistan, no one had heard of Al-Qaeda, terrorism was non-existent on our soil, none of the problems we had today.

But anyway, after 9/11 and after it was found that Al-Qaeda is to blame, the US planned on revenge, and I don't mean for security, or to protect against other attacks, half off the reason was revenge. We should have seen hope, reconciliation, reasoning, we should have seen then making allies in the region and going after only those responsible. In fact, during the first few weeks of talk of an invasion or large scale military actions, Afghan Taliban and tribesmen representatives within Pakistan, pleaded with the US not to do anything hasty, they said they were not behind 9/11, and in fact they condemn it, what's more, the Taliban offered, that's right, they offered the US help to capture or kill those responsible ie Al-Qaeda. But the US was behaving rather stupidly, with the Bush administration not to keen for any talk, Bush insisted 'we do not negotiate with terrorists' refusing the Talibans proposal, why the fuack would they do that? turn away a possible ally, a historical ally, an organisation that could get those who are responsible, instead they painted and labelled them terrorists and accused them of being behind 9/11, baseless accusations. They were hooked up on 'Acta non verba', this is was their first mistake after 9/11. They man they could have caught has likely aligned himself with the taliban and can roam freely.

Then came the air campaign, thousands of civilians needlessly killed very tragic and also many taliban killed, and whats more many tribesmen killed, armed tribesmen, average tribesmen mistaken for taliban. Sad isn't it? Taliban mistaken for al-Qaeda, tribesmen mistaken for taliban, ordinary civilians mistaken for war lords and tribes people who are possible threats. This was the second mistake they made in WOT, they turned the average Pushtun against them. they turned all the tribesmen, war lords against them. The Afghan taliban after this had no choice but to butcher the invaders wherever possible. But no it didn't end there, as if they haven't alinated the Pushtun population enough already, within days or weeks of the invasion, they the US aligned themselves with the Northern alliance. Now the Northern alliance and Pushtun Taliban are sworn enemies, the ethnic divide in Afghanistan is dangerous and fragile, the US messed with that, the 3rd mistake they made. Absolutely alienating all Pushtuns and any non-Northern alliance supporters. Now at this point why the hell should we aid their effort against Pushtun tribes and Afghan Taliban they aren't responsible and there's in no way in hell that Pakistan would engage them. The US can make enemies, pack their bags and fly home, we have to liver right next to the fire that too with no protective border fire can spread very easily.

The US and NATO failed in capturing or killing OBL and many high ranking operatives, The air campaign targeted mostly taliban and innocents, Al-Qaeda were taking refuge in the unforgiving mountains, Pansher valley. After the invasion hardly any damage was done to Al-Qaeda, Afghanistan is not easy terrain, you are fighting the enemy at home, you are looking for a few hundred men among millions and the few hundred have now the unconditional support of the millions. Several military and intelligence failures mean that OBL couldn't be killed or captured in 2001. 4th failure, this time the failure was unintentional but the US could never admit to it, no coverage of these failures and lack of deliverance of the US and NATO, no coverage in the Western media.

Now another failure to capture OBL, Late 2001, Tora Bora battles, Now Tora Bora is in area bordering Pakistan, and in fact many years ago I visited Kurram Agency, Within Tora Bora fortress and surrounding mountains, caves and valley there was very sound intelligence to suggest that OBL was hiding there and that many other high value targets were there, the US led air strikes against the area, massive massive air strikes. In total some 100 Northern alliance fighters and 100 special forces and CIA operatives led the assault on Tora Bora, now tora bora in Pushto means something similar to dark hole or cave in this case. Tora Bora was believed to be some impenetrable fortress with labyrinths caves like and ant farm. Some special service men said that it wasn't all that and that there were some caves but they were natural and no fortress to be found, by OBL's account the Americans tried bombing the place into the ground, but to no effect, OBL still escaped into Pakistan along with many hundreds AQ fighters and taliban operatives.
This was not collaborated with Pakistan army, so they escaped.

This is the first account of why our troubles in the North West began. With the war effort on the other side and an unmanned, impossible border, porous as ever let insurgents retreat into our territory. Now that is not our fault, that is the US' failure and their fault. So the only reason why OBL was in Pak in the first place was because of the failures of the US and allies.

Insurgents were never on our soil prior to the invasion, they were driven here by a mismanaged and catastrophic failure of military effort of the US and allies, it wasn't just Tora Bora, but 2002 Operation Anaconda, were many insurgents were simply driven into Pakistani territory as if the military planners thought it would be wise to dump their crap on our soil and not ask for the help or collaborate with the Pakistanis. You know what the funny thing is? they never said anything to Pakistan about in action at first. But by 2004, the taliban and al qaeda regrouped and came back to bite them in the *** gave them hell in Afghanistan in the form of renewed insurgency. Then Bush called upon Musharraf asking or rather demanding unconditional support.

After joining their war on terror, we lost civilians and jawans, unimaginable damage to our economy and the image of Pakistan internationally, with regular violations of our sovereignty and still damned as the enemy. But do note that this was never our war, we have no reason to make new enemies and aid a blood thirsty revenge driven force in Afghanistan. But we went ahead with it partly to honour our promise to get those responsible behind 9/11, partly because the US as an ally was a major plus and partly because we were forced and bought. 'Following the battle at Shahi-Kot, it is believed that the al-Qaeda fighters established sanctuaries among tribal protectors in Pakistan, from which they regained their strength and later began launching cross-border raids on U.S. forces by the summer months of 2002. Guerrilla units, numbering between 5 and 25 men, still regularly crossed the border from their sanctuaries in Pakistan to fire rockets at U.S. bases and ambush American convoys and patrols, as well as Afghan National Army troops, Afghan militia forces working with the U.S-led coalition, and non-governmental organizations. The area around the U.S. base at Shkin in Paktika province saw some of the heaviest activity.'

Then our effort against Al-Qaeda should be careful noted, First of all we went after Ayman Al-Zawahiri at the battle of Wana. Do you know how that battle ended? some fifty of our brave soldiers were killed, fifty odd al-Qaeda fighters killed and hundreds more captured however Ayam Al Zawahiri escaped. Nek Wazir was also killed. in 2005 Pakistani commandos captured Abu Faraj al-Libbi after a raid outside the town of Mardan, 30 miles northeast of Peshawar, he was 3rd in command of Al-Qaeda, later in 2005 Saiful Adil was killed by our boys. That's three high ranking officials and hundreds of fighters and one failure to capture 2nd in command.Five top Al-Qaeda and militia commanders were among those killed in a month-long operation in Bajaur. Of the five militant commanders killed, four appeared to be foreigners: Egyptian Abu Saeed Al-Masri; Abu Suleiman, an Arab; an Uzbek commander named Mullah Mansoor; and an Afghan commander called Manaras. The fifth was a Pakistani commander named only Abdullah, a son of ageing hardline leader Maulvi Faqir Mohammad who is based in Bajaur and has close ties to Al-Qaeda second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri. In other PA operations where thousands of TTP were killed there were always foreign fighters and Al Qaeda fighters killed among them.

If that isn't enough to prove it to you. After Lal Masjid, Osama himself declared war on Pakistan!
Next an RPG attack on Musharraf, just one assassination attempt and Al-Qaeda claim responsibility. BB's assassination, she received threats from the TTP and AQ, Mushy blamed AQ for her assassination.

then came the Raid, the US destroyed Pakistan's trust violated our sovereignty and all in the pursuit over face saving, they capture a washed up OBL and call the entire WOT a victory, stupidity and naivety right there. OBL compound was indeed in Bilal town, the Bilal town sector is >1.2km from PMA, but the actual compound is well over 3km away so the claims you folks make about 'outside a military academy' are total BS! PMA is an academy not forward base of operations for the WOT, rather naive of you folks to suggest that. And Bilal Town is a richer residential area, a compound like Bin Laden's is no eye sore, barely noticeable, no different from the rest. You tell me, where they supposed to search through the homes of 180 million people trying to find a man who may or may not be alive, a man who may nor may not be in Pakistan even if he were alive. There's nothing from the description of the compound that would hint that there's something sinister to the place. OBL was a washed up and forgotten man by then, you expect the police to say ''Maybe OBL is in there?'' after looking at the place. It's just stupid and naive to suggest such a thing. Furthermore, the talk about how he could afford an expensive 'mansion', the answer is so simple, you know it and you can't deny it, AQ used to be funded by wealthy Saudis but now they earn millions via the opium trade and kidnappings, OBL compound was no biggy if you consider those sources of income. All in all it would be stupid to cast doubts on Pakistan, we've pulled far more then our weight and we shouldn't be blamed for the failure of others or accused of such things. If this isn't enough to convince you then you must be in denial.''

 

[Nitin Goyal]

No one listens to us because they need a scape goat, they want somebody to point to, other than themselves and say: "That's why your son's dead". As for Karazai, he's a puppet, he'll say whatever the US says. Indeed, however, we handed over 300 other wanted AQ terrorists to the US, proving that we want nothing to do with them.

why they need a scapegoat especially in the form of Pakistan who is doing so much and out of capacity and a nuclear armed state ... why dear sir ? Anything logical about it ...