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'US has now an ally in India, enemy in Islamabad'

No offense taken and if Bangla is successful in breaking the jamaati, and bring BD into a vision that the Qauid e Azam held, You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.

Pakistan still has not the courage to do this but you have led the way
well in our religion it is said that do not force others to follow your religion, offer him if he does accept then leave him alone. So being muslim we need to follow it :)
 
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No offense taken and if Bangla is successful in breaking the jamaati, and bring BD into a vision that the Qauid e Azam held, You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.
I believe this statement of Jinnah has been waaaaay too much trumpeted which was actually a paradox, given that he himself was not consistent on his beliefs. Jinnah was no leader of the masses as people are led to believe. He was a great lawyer, and he had his argument for Pakistan to safeguard Islam. THAT'S IT. If one looks at some of his statements of the past, people would believe of the kind of forked-tongued lawyers usually use to win his case. I am quoting some of them for posterity

  1. 14-15 December 1947, Karachi. Jinnah presided All India Muslim League (Pakistan was represented by 460 members and India was by 160 members)

    Let it be VERY CLEAR that Pakistan is going to be MUSLIM STATE based on ISLAMIC IDEALS. It’s not going to be an ecclesiastical state. In Islam there’s no discrimination as far as citizenship is concerned. The whole world and even UNO has characterised Pakistan as a MUSLIM STATE.

    (He also advocated that there’d be Muslim League in India to be continued as a political party. Warned that if you don’t then you go back to 1906 – when AIML was formed in Dacca, now Dhaka).

  2. On 3rd Nov 1946 while delivering a speech to the girl students, Delhi.

    Some say we are Punjabi and others say they are Bengalis or Dilliwalas. Such attitide is baneful to Muslims. WE ARE but SERVANTS of ISLAM.

  3. 14th Nov 1946 while speaking to foreign press, Delhi.

    As soon as Pakistan is achieved….the tension…will cease. The minorities WILL SETTLE DOWN as MINORITIES. “THEY” will REALISE that Minorities can live ONLY as MINORITIES and NOT as a DOMINANT body.

  4. 13th Dec 1946 while speaking to the AIML cadres, London

    Democracy is alien to Hindu society….democracy is in the blood of Mussalmans. :lol:

  5. 27th March 1947 , Bombay

    We assure the HIndus that in Pakistan the minorities will be treated justly, fairly and GENEROUSLY. The whole history of Islam shown that. The whole teaching of Islam in that direction.

  6. 13th July 1947, Press Conference, Delhi

    A reporter: Pakistan a secular or theocratic state?

    Jinnah : Absurd question, dont know what theocratic means

    Another reporter suggested : Muslims are I Grade, Non-Muslims II Grade citizens.

    Jinnah : Like throwing water on duck’s back (means JInnah is not perturbed by that criticism ie Muslims, non-Muslims with different statuses)

    Another reporter: A State run by Mussalmans?

    Jinnah: What about a Government run by Pandit (a acerbic reference to Kashmiri Pandit Nehru, PM designate of India) in Hindustan? (Continuing) When we talk of democracy I am afraid you have not studied Islam. We have learnt democracy 13 centuries ago.

  7. 17th April 1948, Peshawar

    Whatever I had done, I did as a servant of Islam.

  8. 18th Feb 1948, to Radio Australia

    West Pakistan is separated by East Pakistan by 1000 miles. The first question a student from abroad should ask himself is – how can this be? I can answer in one word. It’s faith in Almighty God (Allah).

  9. 25th Jan 1948, Addressing the Bar Association, Karachi

    I could not understand a section of the people who deliberately started to create a mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of SHARIAT. ISLAMIC PRINCIPLES TODAY ARE AS APPLICABLE TO LIFE AS THEY WERE 1300 YEARS AGO.

  10. 17th Jan 1946, Lahore.

    If we don’t succeed in our struggle for Pakistan, the very trace of Mussalmans and Islam will be obliterated from the face of India

  11. Dawn newspaper, 19th Jan 1946 (quoting Jinnah).

    I was reading the press that King Ibn-i-Saud of Arabia was offered £25 million by some Jewish agency to remain silent on the issue of Pakistan. But what’s his answer? His answer was ‘I will not sell MY PEOPLE & FAITH’ at any price. He cursed the man who made this offer.

    (This may sound fantastic therefore I give specific reference for cross checking. “SPEECHES, STATEMENTS & MESSAGES OF QUAID-E-AZAM”, published by Bazm-i-Iqbal, Lahore).

  12. 04th March 1946, AIML Women wing, Shillong (now the capital of Meghalaya)

    The Hindu believes in idolatry, we dont. We (Muslim League or Muslims) believe in equality, liberty and fraternity, while they are caste-ridden, caste-bound.

    Hindus know very well,….but they get affectionate sometimes and call us brothers and all this is to bring the Mussalmans to a position of a minority and thus dominate over us through ballot boxes. They are wrong, they are doing harm, both to themselves and Mussalmans, yet they are obsessed with it.

    (lamenting the seepage of Hindu customs among some Muslims) ‘Lets go back to our Holy Book, The Quran. Lets revert to the hadees and the great traditions of Islam which has everything in them for our guidance.

  13. 11th July 1946, Hyderabad (Deccan)

    We want to like a life of freedom and honour according to the principles of Islam & FOR THAT ALONE we want Pakistan.
 
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Yes, indeed, Jinnah as a historic person, in the context of events and ideas of time and as politician must stand in the judgment of those today who may choose to see in his pronouncements, ideas which they find gratifying.

There are amongst us some who think "Muslim" and "Islam" as net negatives, and others who see in these terms, the opposite, I am among the latter group.
 
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India's non-aligned policy is overhyped. India was able to provide significant blows politically only when it signed the friendship treaty with USSR in 1971. Prior to that war with China is a failure and 1965 is a pyrrhic victory against a much smaller nation. The prudent way is to align with like-minded countries and not lose your own(unlike how her neighbour has done) just like what China did from 1970s and start dictating terms once you have gained significant power in terms of economic growth and military strength just like how China established itself as another pole in the late 2000s. In today's world, USA is one of the likeminded countries and it is in India's interest to establish significant strategic friendship with USA - not Russia which would like to see the SCO strengthened along with China and will not align with India totally unless India grows as predicted in the next 2 decades.
 
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India's non-aligned policy is overhyped. India was able to provide significant blows politically only when it signed the friendship treaty with USSR in 1971.
Yes but then there was this agreement to buy weapons from Russia which helped in keeping a level playing field.
IMO I do not think we went to the Russian camp but we did lean towards it.

Prior to that war with China is a failure and 1965 is a pyrrhic victory against a much smaller nation.

Please land the blame on the doorsteps of the ones Responsible and that would be Nehru and the DefMin Menon.

The prudent way is to align with like-minded countries and not lose your own(unlike how her neighbour has done) just like what China did from 1970s and start dictating terms once you have gained significant power in terms of economic growth and military strength just like how China established itself as another pole in the late 2000s.
Nations do not make friendships on the basis of like-mindedness, there is only political interest which coincide and should be treated case by case esp with US and how it consistenly amazes the world of its duplicity. They are not our immediate neighbours to seek an alliance which would bring out maximum benifits. Which block did China went to, Im sure they foccused on how to improve thier nation without bringing too much attention to itself.

In today's world, USA is one of the likeminded countries and it is in India's interest to establish significant strategic friendship with USA - not Russia which would like to see the SCO strengthened along with China and will not align with India totally unless India grows as predicted in the next 2 decades.
Case by case, already stated above.
 
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The aid given was non lethal variety. mountaineering equipment , jackets , boots and such . they did not supply us weapons.

thanks for info

there are some sources which suggest US gave weapons to India after war
 
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The Indian strategic planners are one clever group of people. They know that it is in there best interest to keep the US at an arms length. While India has happily expanded trade and commercial ties with the US but has refused to toe the line with the US on political issues. Despite several overtures from the US with carrots, India has refused to take the bait and has refused to join an American led alliance. In fact, India has gone one step further, it has proceeded to diversify its relations with other developed and developing countries reducing her reliance on the US much to the disappointment of Uncle Sam. I must say, the Indian strategic planners have played there cards exceptionally well.

@ 1st bolded part> True.

@2nd bolded part> Well, that was must.

We still need to further improve ties with ASEAN and Japan.

Co-operation with Japan in fields like tech, commerce is also needed.

GOI has plans of spending 100 billion $ on infra over next 5-6 years and there are plans of Separate rail corridor for cargo rails.

Japanese firms will be logical choice for role of consultancy firms, as they have huge experience of handling such projects.
 
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Yes, indeed, Jinnah as a historic person, in the context of events and ideas of time and as politician must stand in the judgment of those today who may choose to see in his pronouncements, ideas which they find gratifying.

There are amongst us some who think "Muslim" and "Islam" as net negatives, and others who see in these terms, the opposite, I am among the latter group.

@muse; Some things about Mr Jinnah need to be seen in perspective. To start with Jinnah was the arche-typical Secularist. His thinking was absolutely "religion-neutral". Infact it was Gandhi who was not so, while he could have been considered to have been "religion-tolerant"; he frequently muddled up religious ideas with political ideas. By the definition of Secularism; Gandhi was no Secularist. That is what disturbed Jinnah. He saw that Gandhi with his influence in a free India would mix up religious ideas with governance, which could be some kind of a threat to Muslims. Then there was the other Constituency of Muslims in India who felt extremely threatened; the Muslim Feudals-Nawabs and Zamindars who had been created and who lived on the power and pelf distributed by the Mughal Darbar (which had since evaporated). But the Feudals remained, patronised by the new Darbar- the King Emperor in Britain. Another component was the the Muslim Clergy, who apprehended that they would be washed away post independence; some-what like Ataturkian Turkey. So these strange bed-fellows climbed into the same bed. But that happened later; after Pakistan was created and after Jinnah had died. That strange relationship still endures!
Jinnah was the only person who could have prevented it. Though the reading of Jinnah's statements on post#107 shows how even Jinnah vacillated and even made flip-flops wrt his own deeply held beliefs. That can possibly be explained as the mind of an astute Lawyer at work. The intention being to win his brief, anyhow. Mohammed Currim Chagla had some interesting opinions about Jinnah who was not only his Senior in Chambers but who he admired greatly till...

In conclusion; my belief is that Gandhi's demise worked better for India just as Jinnah's demise worked very badly for Pakistan.
 
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India shouldn't be US's ally, every country which has been it's ally literally got destroyed.
Are you sure about that? I mean, Canada, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Mexico, Turkey, and Australia are important allies of United States and almost all of them are the most prosperous countries in the world.
 
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thanks for info

there are some sources which suggest US gave weapons to India after war

They did not . in fact we literally begged the west for fighters and arty and tanks , both the British and the Americans refused. it was then that the soviets stepped in with the mig 21 , 130 mm towed field gun , foxtrot subs , Sa2 sam they literally saved the day by giving us the T55 for the army . i know all this as my Father was an ECO(Emergency commissioned officer) he volunteered during the 62 war. he was a architect but asked to serve in the infantry . in those days they were doubling the strength of the army and were short of officers.
 
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Are you sure about that? I mean, Canada, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Mexico, Turkey, and Australia are important allies of United States and almost all of them are the most prosperous countries in the world.

That is true. However being friends with USA should not translate into being an American "hand-maiden". US policies tend to be rather myopic as we have seen time and again; esp in the days of the 'Cold War'. That has harmed the world quite a bit as well as USA itself. Just that the USA's economic and strategic clout has minimised the damage to USA to some extent.
 
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They did not . in fact we literally begged the west for fighters and arty and tanks , both the British and the Americans refused. it was then that the soviets stepped in with the mig 21 , 130 mm towed field gun , foxtrot subs , Sa2 sam they literally saved the day by giving us the T55 for the army . i know all this as my Father was an ECO(Emergency commissioned officer) he volunteered during the 62 war. he was a architect but asked to serve in the infantry . in those days they were doubling the strength of the army and were short of officers.

The beauty of all that was: that the Soviets did not attach too many strings to their friendship. In fact there was no need to enter into Military Alliances with them to get the hardware that we did. The Soviets (unlike the Americans) always had a sense of History. They did not try to hard to push India into areas where India did not wish to go; though they welcomed Indian support in International Diplomacy. That is what India appreciated greatly since the Soviets were sensitive to Indian aspirations.
 
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They did not . in fact we literally begged the west for fighters and arty and tanks , both the British and the Americans refused. it was then that the soviets stepped in with the mig 21 , 130 mm towed field gun , foxtrot subs , Sa2 sam they literally saved the day by giving us the T55 for the army . i know all this as my Father was an ECO(Emergency commissioned officer) he volunteered during the 62 war. he was a architect but asked to serve in the infantry . in those days they were doubling the strength of the army and were short of officers.

There were transfers of weapons, but Kennedy was offering too little too late.
By that time, the Russo-Chinese split was done and Russia had no qualms about Punishing the Chinese.
 
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People, this is just the personal (bias) views of an isolationist neo-con congressman and not the views of the US government.

Here is an interesting piece I stumbled upon, Dr C. Christine Fair, an Assistant Professor at Georgetown University exposes this neocon congressman’s real agenda.


“Stick it to the Pakistanis”

uscongressionalhearingonbal_543.jpg


In the days before last week’s Congressional hearing on Balochistan, Dr C. Christine Fair, an Assistant Professor at Georgetown University, was extremely critical of the proceedings, going so far as to call the hearing a “political stunt” and one of her fellow witnesses a “nut” in a series of Twitter exchanges.

At the time, Fair did not elaborate on what drove her to so publicly rebuke the hearing. It is only now that she is ready to set the record straight in defence of her statements amid what she calls “considerable harassment from some vocal members of the Baloch diaspora.”

The “stunt” heard round the world

According to Fair, her “political stunt” comment was prompted by a call from a sub-committee staff member. Fair had contacted him to solicit guidance for her upcoming testimony. In the course of their conversation, the staffer explained “we want to stick it to the Pakistanis.” The staffer further elaborated that the Pakistanis had been “killing our troops for ten years in Afghanistan.”

In Fair’s words, while she understood and even shared this person’s views on Pakistan’s relations with the United States over the past decade, this comment about the hearing made her “feel really uncomfortable about being roped into something that I would call a stunt. So, I wanted to make my position publicly known.”

Looking back on the comment, Fair is unapologetic: “Prior to accepting the request to serve as a witness, I was told this was a hearing about human rights violations and other issues needed to understand the various crises in Balochistan. But, based upon that brief phone conversation, I concluded that it wasn’t about human rights. Rather, it seemed that the people behind this hearing were pandering to diaspora politics just to tick off the Pakistanis at a time when the United States is trying to repair its tattered relationship with Pakistan.”

Fair’s comments did not go unnoticed. Elements of the Baloch diaspora, who Fair called “a bunch of extremists,” took extreme exception to the comments, especially on Twitter. In her words, they then “subjected me to an array of bullying and obnoxious assaults, many of which also tagged Congressman (Dana) Rohrabacher (R – CA).”

This avalanche of tweets protesting Fair’s participation in the hearing ultimately brought the matter to Rohrabacher’s office. On the Monday prior to the hearing, the staff member who had been coordinating with Fair reached out to her again to convey his displeasure: “He called to take a piece out of my hide. I requested that he explain to the Congressperson why I called the hearing a stunt, namely this staffer’s explanation that they wanted to stick it to the Pakistanis.” However, in her assessment, the staffer “did not have the testicular fortitude to explain the comment to Rohrabacher.”

A “nut” by any other name

Fair’s characterisation of Ralph Peters, a fellow witness, as a “nut”
also rankled many proponents of Baloch interests, including at least one staff member affiliated with the hearing. According to Fair, during the aforementioned phone call, the angered Congressional staff member explained that he was taken aback that Fair dismissed Peters as a nut. He added that he had never previously experienced one witness attacking another before the hearing.

In recounting that exchange, Fair remains vivacious in her defence. She points out that she actually called Peters “a certified, flipping nut because only a nut would advocate the dismembering of a sovereign state based upon the views of one community in a province.” She then explains the reasoning for her steadfast opposition to Peters: “If this Congressional subcommittee remotely intended to try to use the hearing to put pressure on Pakistan for its human rights record in Balochistan, they should not have included someone who calls for the halving of their country.”

Biting the hand that invites you

Fair acknowledges that her comments were the impetus for the uncomfortable exchange with Rohrabacher at the hearing’s conclusion. Rohrabacher, who looked her straight in the eye and explained “this was not a stunt,” appeared perturbed by her pre-hearing comments. He therefore, used the hearing as the forum to issue his rebuttal.

While Fair admits that she “might not be invited back to give testimony again,” she does not regret her actions. From her perspective, she needed to signal her concerns because “this was a hearing designed by a collection of guys – and possibly a woman or two – who share a strategic image of how the Afghanistan and Pakistan postures should interrelate. While they reflect the general frustration in Congress with Pakistan taking US money and supporting terrorism, their views about dismembering Pakistan do not reflect the larger sentiment in Congress on Pakistan. Their statements struck me as incredibly provocative, did nothing to advance human rights in Balochistan, and made a US-Pakistan rapprochement much more difficult.”

Fair also notes that Congressmen Rohrabacher and Louie Gohmert (R – TX) bear significant responsibility for undermining the hearing before it was ever held. She points to the Congressmen’s pre-hearing OpEd, which suggested the United States should openly support an independent Balochistan, as setting the wrong tone for a hearing purportedly on human rights.

Eddie Walsh is a senior foreign correspondent who covers Africa and Asia-Pacific.
 
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