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US aircraft carrier group deployed for ‘routine patrols’ in S. China Sea

Why are people writing gibberish about the US attacking islands or being there to prevent island building? It isn't our islands. The US goal is to simply drive through as usual like we have for over the past 70 years. It doesn't matter who owns the islands or what is on them. As long as somebody doesn't claim the right to deny passage we could care less. That's all the ships are doing right now..enforcing the right to pass through.
 
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"Bring the boys home!"

The boys are meant US soldiers. that was the banner the protesters hold during Vietnam war demonstrations.

Then you know about them. I also know about them as I met several ex-US military in the classroom.

They would hate to be dead in the cold waters of SCS so that the Vietnamese and the Philippines would gobble up all the islands.

Most of them are there to pay for college tuition or bank credit. I think for them it is noble to wear the boots and get paid for it, not killed for it.

But you must have known this, as well, because you taught us second big historical lesson after the Korean War.
 
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Well, been hearing this alot, but there are no affirmative action on both side.

Theoritically, it will not ends in war, because the only way Chinese can survive a war with the US is to use nuclear weapon, which is not surviving at all. As I said, US have way too many asset around China, which they can deal blows to China whether or not US winning a war is not in its question itself, China, even if somehow can resist the US invasion (had there been one) China would have pay dearly for the price.

On the other hand, it's not up to China to decide whether or not to "engage" the US like you said, as China have no initiative, there are no way China can make the 64 + days tran-pacific journey without going into either Alaska or Hawaii. That mean if any engagement between China and US are going to happen, it's either China engage a third country (Japan, Taiwan), which US can still choose whether or not they will be a part of this conflict, or US decided to take the initiative and engage China for any reason (Island in SCS, Hainan or Senkaku's or etc) China at this stage, or near future, would be in defensive, not on offensive.

I am not saying a war can or cannot happen, I am simply saying that what you think is incorrect, if war did happen, you cannot simply scare the US away or the American is like a coward you describing, they will fight you to the end. WE saw that before, we are going to see it again.

US can only bully a small nation and seek a flawless victory, when facing China or Russia, Americans sure know how thing will end, they rather use other nations such Japan and Korea as meatshield as they did in Korea war that call up UN army (LOL). And they sure know that Chinese is ready to gamble the fate of China against US if Americans dare to cross the red line as American ignored China's warning not to cross the 38th line in Korea. When they learn their lesson in Korea, they dare not repeat the same mistake in Vietnam when bombing North Vietnamese.

Regardless on how well you like to brag about US military might and I've been hearing alot from you repeatly saying that US will win the war against China, you think that will deter China or lower Chinese moral from dealing with US? US knows the red line and Americans know that China will have no hesitation if anything go beyond that line so there is no need to make drama.
 
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Why are people writing gibberish about the US attacking islands or being there to prevent island building? It isn't our islands. The US goal is to simply drive through as usual like we have for over the past 70 years. It doesn't matter who owns the islands or what is on them. As long as somebody doesn't claim the right to deny passage we could care less. That's all the ships are doing right now..enforcing the right to pass through.
The Chinese members here understand full well what you said. If they remain on that topic, then there is a stalemate. The US do not attack any Chinese islands in the SCS, and China will make no attempt to control access to the SCS. But a stalemate is not what the Chinese members of this forum want. It is emotionally unsatisfying. There must be an avenue for them to vent at the Americans. Hence the repeated taunts to the American members of this forum to call for a US attack on these islands. I have always said the same thing that the US do not care for what China builds in the SCS. Just do not try to claim any expansion of territorial waters from them.

Edit: See post 179. :lol:

I'm glad you brought this up. Indeed, it would be an incredibly selfish, cowardly, and pathetic display of "masculinity" to threaten to nuke someone - especially someone much weaker than you - you know, like defenseless women and children.



When Nixon Threatened to Nuke Vietnam:
https://warisboring.com/when-nixon-threatened-to-nuke-vietnam-a00bc0f73909#.6wm8uyxdj

Of course, since you're an "oldman", you probably remember when America did just that. America nuked an already defeated Imperial Japan's civilian population with two nuclear bombs - the only two ever used on civilians in human history. I'm sure that was part of the "Christian" civilizing mission you people are so fond of.
Eventually, there is always someone sympathizing with WW II Imperial Japan. Conveniently, of course.
 
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US can only bully a small nation and seek a flawless victory, when facing China or Russia, Americans sure know how thing will end, they rather use other nations such Japan and Korea as meatshield as they did in Korea war that call up UN army (LOL). And they sure know that Chinese is ready to gamble the fate of China against US if Americans dare to cross the red line as American ignored China's warning not to cross the 38th line in Korea. When they learn their lesson in Korea, they dare not repeat the same mistake in Vietnam when bombing North Vietnamese.

Regardless on how well you like to brag about US military might and I've been hearing alot from you repeatly saying that US will win the war against China, you think that will deter China or lower Chinese moral from dealing with US? US knows the red line and Americans know that China will have no hesitation if anything go beyond that line so there is no need to make drama.

Look, buddies

I have not brag about anything, but to be fair and honest, set aside whether the nationalistic tone, do you honestly think the Chinese Navy is even a match for half strength US Navy?

I am not saying china dare or not dare to attack the US, nor US would dare, or not dared to attack the Chinese, in both Korea and Vietnam case, didn't it already show you war is going to happen regardless of what kind of warning you may think or preceive you send to your enemy? By the way, China did not help Vietnam fight the Vietnam war, and also China is on US side after 1969.

Look man, I am not saying what kind of action both China and US should do, as I repeatedly said that in here, I am going to say again, China can deal with the island issue diplomatically, internally or militarily to any or all party involved. And I do not honestly care what US would do or what Chinese would do in the SCS issue. And if you ask me, as I said before, there will not be any war between China and US, I don't see any point in a war as someone said it already, it ain't our island.

However, my point is this, IF THIS COME DOWN TO WAR BETWEEN CHINA AND US, US WILL WIN, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT ALL THEIR MILITARY OBJECTIVE HAVE BEEN ACHIEVE
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I think this is the sentence you will agree, unless you are naive enough to believe if a war between US and China do happen in SCS, china will get out of the war unscaped or without any damage. Then I will have nothing to say to you.
 
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US can only bully a small nation and seek a flawless victory, when facing China or Russia, Americans sure know how thing will end, they rather use other nations such Japan and Korea as meatshield as they did in Korea war that call up UN army (LOL). And they sure know that Chinese is ready to gamble the fate of China against US if Americans dare to cross the red line as American ignored China's warning not to cross the 38th line in Korea. When they learn their lesson in Korea, they dare not repeat the same mistake in Vietnam when bombing North Vietnamese.

Regardless on how well you like to brag about US military might and I've been hearing alot from you repeatly saying that US will win the war against China, you think that will deter China or lower Chinese moral from dealing with US? US knows the red line and Americans know that China will have no hesitation if anything go beyond that line so there is no need to make drama.
US will never start a war with China. They will only start a war when China is being bogged down by some other countries in a war. They are the sneaky ones without balls.
China should understand and expect these schemers next move.
 
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Then you know about them. I also know about them as I met several ex-US military in the classroom.

They would hate to be dead in the cold waters of SCS so that the Vietnamese and the Philippines would gobble up all the islands.

Most of them are there to pay for college tuition or bank credit. I think for them it is noble to wear the boots and get paid for it, not killed for it.

But you must have known this, as well, because you taught us second big historical lesson after the Korean War.
You love to ignore the root of all tensions: Chinese claim of SCS as ancient territory and the intention to enforce the claim.

What do you think how England, France and Spain will respond if Germany declares the North Sea as ancient territory with dotted lines close to her neighbors coasts? A new war against the Germans will become unavoidable.
 
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How? Did you actually read the article I wrote?

The combine effort of Navy and Air Force would be able to target those ADS, where the Air force would use their AWACS to scoop up those missile by tracking its movement, navy will then target those missile either by sub launch or surface launch Cruise Missile or bombs.

Then the US navy will take on the Chinese Navy while the Airforce is make short work on Chinese Launch site.

The Airforce will flew over the target area first, launch an Iron hand missile and eliminate the ADS threat with a combine of Jammer Aircraft, Drone and strike aircraft, then Long range bomber wil ltarget fix missile launcher site, and march in the Naval destoryer. Which will take care of Chinese Surface ships. Do remember Chinese is both lacking in number of Air and Sea asset.

Yes I did read your article.

But like I said: your scenario is not anymore a limited war in south china sea, that will be total war between China and USA; and if you think USA can win over China in the war occuring in China mainland you should think again. Total a/c from all US carriers will be outnumbered with the total PLAAF, not to mention numerous HQ-9 and other anti access weapon.

If you say destroying anti access weapon by attacking China mainland, then what will happen will be the other way round, there will be many tolls in US (fiighter, bomber, drone) due to anti access weapon like HQ-9
 
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Yes I did read your article.

But like I said: your scenario is not anymore a limited war in south china sea, that will be total war between China and USA; and if you think USA can win over China in the war occuring in China mainland you should think again. Total a/c from all US carriers will be outnumbered with the total PLAAF, not to mention numerous HQ-9 and other anti access weapon.

You, along with many of people before you, missed one single point. Which defensive number superiority does not exist, as one simply rules show.

The point being, for the defender. You need to split your defense force so it would be able to defend all the borders within your country. otherwise your enemy can bypass undefended area and attack your defense from behind, flank or anywhere you are not expected to attack from. Which is how and why France lost that quick during the Battle of France in 1940, as they only focus their defense on Maginot Line but ignored the Ardennes.

If your country is appear a square shape, then you will need to defend the square equally at least (but can be weighted if there are BUND (Build Up Natural Defense) such as a river or cliff face or MMDL (Man Made Defense Line) Such as Maginot Line. Still, you need to position your troop and support element in that land to fend off possible attacks.

However, For an attackers, you only need to penetrate one line, and you will capture your objective. You can attack more than one line to draw off forces for the main attack, but for an attack, you do not need to attack all the defender defense.

Also, it's worth notice that for a continuous defense line, the attacker only need to attack a few point of the line, while the defender have to defend the whole length of the line to make the defensive works.

Now, what does that mean? This is a map of China.

China_administrative_claimed_included.svg.png


You can see the Chinese coast line is not a straight line, also the internal border is not a straight line.

Now, let's say if I want to attack Beijing, and for this case, let's give some advantage to China and say I am going to attack via the coastline along Tianjin and Liaoning (in reality, i can attack from a further point and thus stretching the Chinese defense further, but in this case, we use a fix point)

For China to defend the city of Beijing, the first thing is very oblivious, you cannot fit 2 millions army, 1100 fighter craft all inside Beijing. That mean you will need to evenly distribute your force around the city and area surrounding Beijing. Which mean for China to successfully defend Beijing, China need to put force in or around the City of

1.)Liaoning Province
2.)Shandong Province
3.)Heike Province
4.)Beijing City

Let's say for argument sake, you only put force in these 4 provinces and city, you still diluted your force 4 times, just to protect one city. For the me, if I want to invade Beijing, I can land on any point at Liaoning to Shandong and then head to Heibe and then head to Beijing.

So in effect, even in this handicap scenario, China need to dilute her force 4 times, yet I can concentrate my force in one route. or two (I can land on both Shandong and Liaoning) and pin both defender down while i work my way into Beijing, and my force is unchanged, for example if I have 500 tanks and 400 fighter covering the landing on Shandong, i will have 500 tanks i can use on my Shandong offensive. However, if China have 2000 tanks and 1100 fighter for her disposal to defend Beijing, then according to force dilution, I am only facing 500 Chinese tank and 250-300 fighter that defend Shandong, given the defensive line is equally distributed (500 tanks for Liaoning, 500 tanks for Hebei and 500 tanks on Beijing). And it will take time to move defensive asset around, the time I can use to break thru your line, land reinforcement, or even engage a new offensive to further blogging down your troop concentration.

Now, imagine, I do not only have 1 objective, and I do not only have 1 route, that way I can further dilute the Chinese force where I kept my own force relatively intact, as I will always only have 1 spearhead, but China have to defend the whole line.

If you say destroying anti access weapon by attacking China mainland, then what will happen will be the other way round, there will be many tolls in US (fiighter, bomber, drone) due to anti access weapon like HQ-9

Again, it won't you are looking at a total number comparison, however, in reality, the whole US Air Force will not meet the whole Chinese Air Force in a single engagement. The game will be play via local superiority. You are looking at about 33.3% US casualty rate. given the tradition 3:1 defensive advantage ratio. That figure is given China and US is on par with technology

Also, you fail to discount the effectiveness of US Air Force for their Anti-SAM/Anti-Radar offensive capability. The so called Anti-A2/AD is created just to deal with Advance ADS. In reality, given the lacking of AWACS and ISTAR capability from China, the force is not network-centric and China is a big country, missing ISTAR and Networkcentric capability would mean the defense will be mounted less effectively.

Meaning? The actual Casualty rate is less than 33.3% estimate in reality.
 
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The anti ship ballistic missile will do it in the first strike.
There are weapons but thats a no no

A war between China and US will most likely end up in a stalemate. China will lose most of its maritime claims but the US won't be able to invade the Mainland.
There will be a global economic crisis as well as a massive rise in Japanese nationalism(depending on the role Japan would play in the war)

And then there is the Nuclear factor
 
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@jhungary
U talk too much about war with China ... when u have spare time, pls go PLA military force photos thread and share ur PROFESSIONAL about PLAN testing new anti-aircraft missile (HQ-26 maybe), is that one looking like U.S Navy SM-3 missile ?
 
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How do you suggest China to defend these island??

US on the other hand, do not need to attack all Chinese island simulatanously, they only need to do it one by one like they did in WW2. And in term of Naval Strength, Japan was at least on par or even supercede USN in the begining of the war, and yet US can capture all their Island all the way to Okinawa. So do tell me, how do you suggest Chinese Navy, which is not even half strength of the current USN. Can defend those island effctively?

Or are you one of those people thinking a few missile here and there can defeat or at least inflict Heavy Casualty to the USN without Chinese Navy even moving a finger? IF you are, then I got my answer.

Well, I cannot say I am not expecting this, you have no (ZERO) military experience to talk about this stuff.

For Black Bold :
You always said, you have a lot of military experience, and bashing other members' analysis and explanation, doesn't care how good they are.

You like to hide under, your FAKE "Military Experience" :enjoy: when face with good explanation from other members.


Okay let's start, boy. :-)

For Red Bold :
You said America doesn't need to attack all Chinese Islands simultaneously, just like leap frog in WW2 against Japan in South Western-Central Pacific.

So, you don't know. In WW2 Japan held islands in Pacific is too far apart to support each other when attacked.

But, That's different in China's Island in South China Sea.
They are close each other, and can support each other if one of them get attacked.
So, If Americans Daddy "DARE" to attack Chinese Islands in SCS, they need to attack all Chinese Islands simultaneously.

Just look at the maps of 3 China's Islands in Spratly, Subi-Yongshu-Mischief Islands.

SCS 23.jpg


SCS 24.jpg



This is your blunder.
You think you can fool other people, but you cannot. :-)

With your super "Military Experience"
Now I know, how bad your Military Service is :D
@cnleio @Shotgunner51 @sweetgrape @AndrewJin
 
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You Always said, you have many military experience.
and Bashing other members Analysis and Explanation, doesn't care how good they are.
You like to Hide under, your FAKE "Military Experience" :enjoy: When face Good Explanation from other members.

Fake? Maybe? I never ask anyone to believe I used to serve in any military for any matter. My words are there, you don't believe it, fine, but I don't see you discuss military tactics and strategy or even history on one of those thread I created.

https://defence.pk/threads/battle-tactics-2-ambush.474344/
https://defence.pk/threads/battle-tactics-1-hammer-and-anvil.469677/
https://defence.pk/threads/jhungary-on-warfare-part-1-principles-of-war.432599/
https://defence.pk/threads/stealth-vs-jammer-the-airsea-battle-concept.425875/
https://defence.pk/threads/understanding-counter-intelligence-counter-humint.415012/
https://defence.pk/threads/modern-warfare-1gw-to-4gw.385646/
https://defence.pk/threads/battlefield-management.384479/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-special-operation.382458/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-warfare-tactics-and-doctrine.368458/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-airborne-warfare-doctrines-and-tactics.368454/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-hostage-rescue-tactics.363684/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-armour-warfare-doctrine-and-tactics.363118/
https://defence.pk/threads/doctrine-and-tactical-development-in-war-science.351869/
https://defence.pk/threads/understa...e-humint-part-2-conducting-humint-ops.355297/
https://defence.pk/threads/a-closer-look-on-performance-based-logistic.358426/
https://defence.pk/threads/force-multiplication-what-it-means-for-pakistan.357324/
https://defence.pk/threads/dissecting-amphibious-assault-warfare-tactics-and-doctrines.362491/
https://defence.pk/threads/warfighting-capability-and-power-projection.361655/

And tat's just half of my post history.

If you think you are better than me in anyway, why not try to humiliate me in all those post and show the forum, how "FAKE' my military experience is?

Okay let's start, boy. :-)

You said America doesn't need to attack all Chinese Islands simultanously, just like Leap frog in WW 2 against japan in South Western-Central Pacific.

So, you don't know. in WW2 Japan held islands in pacific is Far enough to support each other when attacked.
But, That's different in China's Island in South China Sea.
They are close each other, and can support If one of them get attacked.
So, If Americans Daddy "DARE" to attack Chinese Islands in SCS, they need to attack all Chinese Islands simultaneously.

Just look at the maps of 3 China's Islands in Spratly, Subi-Yongshu-Mischief Islands.
View attachment 379180
View attachment 379181


This is your Blunder.
You think you can fool other people, but you cannot. :-)

Set aside, China does not have continuous control of majority of the island, which mean they can be broken up and took apart, unless, of course, China decided to invade the Island currently held by other country, those island China holding cannot be use to mutually supporting each other, as there are gap in between. And each Chinese Island basically surrounded by either a Vietnamese, Taiwanese and Philippine owns island.

That's translate in military term, meaning you need to by-pass all these third party held territories, at worst, these country do not allow US to station troop or use as a staging area, but then even if this is the case, US and China will then set on equal footing. Where those island and its surrounding boundary are both denied access to US and China.

At a better scenario, one, both or all country above allow US to set up staging area. and they can be used as staging point and attack the Chinese island simultaneously. Which mean you have 4 islands in that chain, but you have 13 staging point, all surrounding the Chinese Island, that spell one thing, "FORCE DILUTION". Depending on how many country allow US to use their island as staging point. Which will if Taiwan was out, then China will need to train its gun on 12 island, if Philippine is out, then China will need to train its gun on 10 islands.

Also, there are another way to force the Chinese to submit, which is by inserting the US navy between the Northern most side of the island chain and cut off Supply route between China and these island. How are you going to fight without resupply when the US Navy can just as easily cut you off with the land route?

During WW2, the islands is not exactly far away form each other, but also not exactly close enough to have them support each other, if you study WW2 island hopping campaign, you would know the hopping campaign have 4 different stage. each stage are further away from the other. They are Solomon Islands chain (Guadalcanal, New Britain, New Guinea and Gilbert Island Chain, which is in itself further from), Marianna Island Group (Guam, Tinian, Saipan, Angaur and Peleliu), Philippine Island Chain (Mindoro, Leyte, Luzon and Philippine Main island) and finally Japanese Home Island Chain (Iwo Jima, Okinawa)

Each campaign feature undisrupted island warfare between US and Japan, and Japan hold all these island prior to the US invasion in a CONTINSOUS line. Which they can use it for mutual support. Not in the case of China, where Chinese island are square in the mix of other nation's island.

What you said is both LACKING ON BOTH STRATEGIC AND TACTICAL MILITARY KNOWLEDGE AND MITILARY HISTORY knowledge
With your Super "Military Experience"
Now I know, how bad your Military Service is :D
@cnleio @Shotgunner51 @sweetgrape @AndrewJin

Just because you said it is, doesn't mean it was. You are spilling nonsense that not even up to 1940 standard tactical and strategic consideration. And you are calling my experience?

Just because I said the sun rise from the west does not mean it is true, nor does not mean people saying the otherwise is an idiot, it's simply showing how lack of knowledge on the subject matter, that's all

@jhungary
U talk too much about war with China ... when u have spare time, pls go PLA military force photos thread and share ur PROFESSIONAL about PLAN testing new anti-aircraft missile (HQ-26 maybe), is that one looking like U.S Navy SM-3 missile ?

look like one and use like one is two different things, I have no interest (beside the information I have to know) on military hardware, I am always more like a tactical and strategic guy
 
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Fake? Maybe? I never ask anyone to believe I used to serve in any military for any matter. My words are there, you don't believe it, fine, but I don't see you discuss military tactics and strategy or even history on one of those thread I created.


If you think you are better than me in anyway, why not try to humiliate me in all those post and show the forum, how "FAKE' my military experience is?



Set aside, China does not have continuous control of majority of the island, which mean they can be broken up and took apart, unless, of course, China decided to invade the Island currently held by other country, those island China holding cannot be use to mutually supporting each other, as there are gap in between. And each Chinese Island basically surrounded by either a Vietnamese, Taiwanese and Philippine owns island.

That's translate in military term, meaning you need to by-pass all these third party held territories, at worst, these country do not allow US to station troop or use as a staging area, but then even if this is the case, US and China will then set on equal footing. Where those island and its surrounding boundary are both denied access to US and China.

At a better scenario, one, both or all country above allow US to set up staging area. and they can be used as staging point and attack the Chinese island simultaneously. Which mean you have 4 islands in that chain, but you have 13 staging point, all surrounding the Chinese Island, that spell one thing, "FORCE DILUTION". Depending on how many country allow US to use their island as staging point. Which will if Taiwan was out, then China will need to train its gun on 12 island, if Philippine is out, then China will need to train its gun on 10 islands.

Also, there are another way to force the Chinese to submit, which is by inserting the US navy between the Northern most side of the island chain and cut off Supply route between China and these island. How are you going to fight without resupply when the US Navy can just as easily cut you off with the land route?

During WW2, the islands is not exactly far away form each other, but also not exactly close enough to have them support each other, if you study WW2 island hopping campaign, you would know the hopping campaign have 4 different stage. each stage are further away from the other. They are Solomon Islands chain (Guadalcanal, New Britain, New Guinea and Gilbert Island Chain, which is in itself further from), Marianna Island Group (Guam, Tinian, Saipan, Angaur and Peleliu), Philippine Island Chain (Mindoro, Leyte, Luzon and Philippine Main island) and finally Japanese Home Island Chain (Iwo Jima, Okinawa)

Each campaign feature undisrupted island warfare between US and Japan, and Japan hold all these island prior to the US invasion in a CONTINSOUS line. Which they can use it for mutual support. Not in the case of China, where Chinese island are square in the mix of other nation's island.

What you said is both LACKING ON BOTH STRATEGIC AND TACTICAL MILITARY KNOWLEDGE AND MITILARY HISTORY knowledge


Just because you said it is, doesn't mean it was. You are spilling nonsense that not even up to 1940 standard tactical and strategic consideration. And you are calling my experience?

Just because I said the sun rise from the west does not mean it is true, nor does not mean people saying the otherwise is an idiot, it's simply showing how lack of knowledge on the subject matter, that's all



look like one and use like one is two different things, I have no interest (beside the information I have to know) on military hardware, I am always more like a tactical and strategic guy

For Red Bold :

Read my post first boy, before reply.
That's you, who LACKING ON BOTH STRATEGIC AND TACTICAL MILITARY KNOWLEDGE AND MILITARY HISTORY knowledge :D

You compare Japan in pacific WW2, with China in South China Sea in this modern times.
like compare apple to orange :enjoy:

Look at map once more again, China's Military Base in Spratly Islands is very close between each other.
200 Km range is Close enough to give support from Naval Support, Air Support, Close enough for China's Surface-to-Air Missiles, Air-to-Surface Missiles, and Surface-to-Surface Missiles. If someone DARE to attack one of that Island.

SCS 23.jpg

SCS 24.jpg




Milltary experience is about losing legs for immoral wars killing civilians.

Everyone can Claim he is Superman, Batman, or Donald Duck in Internet.
But, in real Life. He is just a **ser :lol:
It's always fun to see people like that.
 
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