US-Afghanistan - An Opinion

[ashokdeiva]

you mean 4 tries at wars with India was not repetitious- just that the success rate was not achieved , if not 100,000 ( military , civilian collateral damage)of Indians would be slaughtered.

you win I lose and no point have I hidden the fact of American foreign policy failures ( now repeated it in multiple posts - although you choose to only cherry pick some of my views). I have protested against the broad brush used and showed the hypocrisy of you accusing the the Americans when it was all bhai bhai with the Americans in the 80's.

--I will continue debating if need be with Indians to maintain safety in my cowardice as you have eloquently stated .

See budy, they had no other way to counter India, they had to accept America as a friend where as they now see that America has its own agenda. if your friend is wrong, is that you don't say that what he is doing is wrong to him or to the friends of yours.

 

[ashokdeiva]

Is it possible to be a rescuing angel without wielding a sword? Otherwise every violent and determined miscreant could protect himself from justice by holding hostages, is that not so? It isn't like America goes around wantonly killing civilians. And doesn't America make great efforts to rebuild the countries that have suffered from its wars?

You got to understand, when you go to a war for a humanitarian cause, you are welcomed by the local people but at the end of the same war, they have had enough of explosions. People are nothing but a mob driven by emotions. when you entered iraq you said that you are after the WMD's and what you gave the world, you gave a country ruined by explosions and a new generation of locals accusing you of all the suffering that they are facing.
if you had wanted Sadam for the 144 people you say he killed, you should have targeted him with one of your so called smart bombs will minimal casuality.

 

[53fd]

I think all Pakistanis today would like to be friends with India than the US. The last thing Pakistanis would want is having 'relations' with the US. The US, a country once deeply admired in Pakistan by Pakistanis, has suffered an enormous image deterioration not just in Pakistan, but the world over. Pakistan & India do not have the hegemonic desires of world domination that the US has, which the British used to have pre-WW 2. The Indians that are very pro-US need to understand that the US has no love for India or any other country, & can completely screw over nations all over the world to secure its own interests.

 

[ashokdeiva]

To be very honest , i have never met an America hater in India ever , I don't even know from where this website attracts these rare creatures who for god knows what reason want to see America get nuked .

Sure there are Indians who criticise America's policies like even I did in Iraq but never met an America hater in real life like i meet here on this forum.

The Indians who hate USA are probably those people who are old and have not got over the cold war , which means they basically live in the past. Feel Sad for them .

Or they could be commies .

hope you are not reffering to me, i am 28 and i belong to the new generation and i am not hostile to the Ameriacan, i just said that war does not heel wounds so the super power should change its attitude of going on a rampage with countries they feel as hostile.

 

[ashokdeiva]

I think all Pakistanis today would like to be friends with India than the US. The last thing Pakistanis would want is having 'relations' with the US. The US, a country once deeply admired in Pakistan by Pakistanis, has suffered an enormous image deterioration not just in Pakistan, but the world over. Pakistan & India do not have the hegemonic desires of world domination that the US has, which the British used to have pre-WW 2. The Indians that are very pro-US need to understand that the US has no love for India or any other country, & can completely screw over nations all over the world to secure its own interests.

They always say "GOD BLESS AMERICA" and they are never interested in the welfare of the rest of the world. if they had they should have not let Zimbawea become a failed state, so is the list with the following countries
Congo, and most of the south and central africa.

 

[JayAtl]

I think all Pakistanis today would like to be friends with India than the US. The last thing Pakistanis would want is having 'relations' with the US. The US, a country once deeply admired in Pakistan by Pakistanis, has suffered an enormous image deterioration not just in Pakistan, but the world over. Pakistan & India do not have the hegemonic desires of world domination that the US has, which the British used to have pre-WW 2. The Indians that are very pro-US need to understand that the US has no love for India or any other country, & can completely screw over nations all over the world to secure its own interests.

India _ US relationship is not a crutch for the US or India. It's very different from US- Pak relationship. what you have to understand is the cooperation is across many fields , bi lateral and not just one where India sees its survivability dependent on their aid or needs the US to babysit its security theater against another country ( like it was during Russian- afghan era) . Both economies actually benefit from the relationship where as US Pak was and is a drain on the US economy ( aid related)

Btw re: your initial two sentences- I know one Pakistani who wants Pak US friendship- you! -unless you are residing in New jersey against your will.

 

[53fd]

India _ US relationship is not a crutch for the US or India. It's very different from US- Pak relationship. what you have to understand is the cooperation is across many fields , bi lateral and not just one

Cooperation between Pakistan & the US has been going on since 1947, even during times when military cooperation was not most important. Pakistan & the US cooperation is across many fields as well. The ties between India & the US are a more recent phenomena.

where India sees its survivability dependent on their aid

Yes, but that's because India gets most of its aid from the UK, IMF, World Bank etc. India gets the maximum amount of aid & grants from the World Bank, which is pretty much "an American institution" if you think about it. Pakistan doesn't depend on US aid either: $21 billion was given to Pakistan from 2001-2011 by the US, & Pakistan has incurred losses of $68 billion in that period. And the Pakistani economy is still growing. Pakistan doesn't need US "aid" to survive, & I can post your figures to prove that. So please, get this thought out of your head that Pakistan needs US aid to survive.

or needs the US to babysit its security theater against another country ( like it was during Russian- afghan era).

Who was babysitting who?

Btw I know one Pakistani who wants Pak Us friendship- you! -unless you are residing in New jersey against your will.

There is a difference between the American people & the American government. Most American people today do not even support most of the actions of the US government.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Your post is total bullcrap. US interventions in Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kosovo, Lebanon, Kuwait and so on and on were never about money or resources but exactly about crimes against humanity. Our interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan are about our own self-defense and not about money or resources. Open your eyes! The ones who are profiting are the nations who stand on the sidelines and watch as the USA gives the world its sons and daughters and goes into debt in the name of human rights.

I think you forgot that who supported Saddam when he had war with Iran. This war in iraq has never been a war about WMD"s or the terrorism of Saddam Hussein upon his people.The reasons Bush gave for attacking Iraq was not for Sept 9th rather it was for weapons of mass destruction which by the way they never found. Saddam Hussein never attacked America. There never was any Saddam connection to 9-11 or Al-Qaeda and the WMD did not exist when the neo-cons began their invasion of Iraq.

Clearly Bush and Cheney used deception and fabrication of new "facts" to justify this war. Now if you take a close look after they invaded Iraq oil pipes were being laid down, and preparing to go under the ocean to the USA, so now it don't take a Genius to see that Bush was after oil only in Iraq, and not to mention to finish a job that his daddy could not finish in the 90's. Again Saddam and Osama has been killed/died so why US is still in Afghanistan and Iraq?

 

[53fd]

I think you forgot that who supported Saddam when he had war with Iran. This war in iraq has never been a war about WMD"s or the terrorism of Saddam Hussein upon his people.The reasons Bush gave for attacking Iraq was not for Sept 9th rather it was for weapons of mass destruction which by the way they never found. Saddam Hussein never attacked America. There never was any Saddam connection to 9-11 or Al-Qaeda and the WMD did not exist when the neo-cons began their invasion of Iraq.

Clearly Bush and Cheney used deception and fabrication of new "facts" to justify this war. Now if you take a close look after they invaded Iraq oil pipes were being laid down, and preparing to go under the ocean to the USA, so now it don't take a Genius to see that Bush was after oil only in Iraq, and not to mention to finish a job that his daddy could not finish in the 90's. Again Saddam and Osama has been killed/died so why US is still in Afghanistan and Iraq?

The US still has 45000 troops in Iraq to ensure that the supply of oil to the US does not stop. Similarly, there will still be abundant number of US troops in Afghanistan in the following years, even though Obama has promised the withdrawal of troops in 2014, starting from this year, just like he promised the complete withdrawal of troops, & the end of the Iraq War to get himself elected for his first term.

 

[CENTCOM]

Would not speculation that the US goes to war with other countries in order to take their resources be credible if there were examples and proof provided for such allegations. In today’s world can you, with verifiable sources and credible evidence, name any country who has taken the resources of another without being held accountable?
On the basis of national security, we have a zero tolerance policy towards threats from outside organizations or countries that have in the past tried to attack us. It is the duty of our government and military to protect our citizens by eliminating any threat whether domestic or foreign. In World War II, were we attacked by surprise in the same way Al-Qaida (AQ) attacked us and killed thousands of innocents on our soil? We seek justice for all those who died in those attacks regardless of their nationality, race or religion. Other extremist organizations such as the TTP and the Afghan Taliban release propaganda videos and statements in which they vow to increase attacks against us. Should, we would you, disregard threats and wait for another attack?

One look at our military history reveals that we intervene in order to stop human rights violations. During the Gulf War, for example, we helped protect Kuwait from Saddam Hussein’s occupying army by defeating the Ba’athist forces who wanted to take Kuwait’s sovereignty. During the Taliban regime, did not they take away the rights and freedoms of the Afghan people leaving them without hope of a bright future? Our interventions in Kosovo, and now in Libya, are missions to stop brutal military regimes from crushing innocent civilians. In the past decade we have given more than US$ 640 million in aid to Kosovo, and billions to many other countries, including Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

The following links document US foreign aid to countries in need
USAID KOSOVO | Facts and figures
Welcome to USAID/Pakistan
USAID Asia - Countries - Afghanistan

In our history, as a nation we have passed through many phases of struggle to gain rights and freedoms for all, where the concept of “all” would encompass every individual in the country not only in theory but also in practice. Some still continue to undergo through these struggles. This offers a strong motivation for us to readily come to the aid of those people and countries that are struggling to achieve their rights and freedoms.

CDR Bill Speaks,
DET – U.S. Central Command
U.S. Central Command

 

[Peshwa]

Every country looks out for their own benefit....

I do think that the US has been an "economic hitman" in many ways, but trust the americans to be smarter than that to do this in less overt ways than go to war.....
To think that Iraq was about oil and Afghanistan about strategic positioning is being myopic....
Iraq had become a genuine threat to its neighbors and American interests....Dont India and Pak bellow about the military and nuclear buildup?....The difference is, if India or Pak were America, they would have done exactly the same pre-emptively....The only shortcoming is that they cant...

Afghanistan was attacked in self defence....
Again...India would love to attack Pakistan to avenge 26/11.....Has it been successful or have the means to decisively punish their enemies? NO...but given the chance and capability it will....
I dont blame America for Afghanistan...

Lets stop being hypocrites.....If its about bodycount in bloodshed and war...nothing beats South Asia...
We killed millions of our own to create new countries
We waged war on our neighbors..
We fought through proxies and killing of innocent civilians
We supported despotic regimes to serve our goals....
We have killed thousands of our own to keep ownership of our land...

But instead of looking inwards...we prefer to project our anger towards the US...

Remember this.....
"Heavy is the head that wears the crown"
The US is in a similar position....Damned they do...Damned they dont....

I dont see Pakistanis criticizing their buddies the Chinese in turning a blind eye to Sudanese genocide to further arms sales or the Taliban that have ruthlessly massacred Afghans...
Nor do I see Indians putting pressure on the Sri-Lankans or the Burmese wrt to their human rights violations.....

Think about it....

 

[JayAtl]

Cooperation between Pakistan & the US has been going on since 1947, even during times when military cooperation was not most important. Pakistan & the US cooperation is across many fields as well. The ties between India & the US are a more recent phenomena.



Yes, but that's because India gets most of its aid from the UK, IMF, World Bank etc. India gets the maximum amount of aid & grants from the World Bank, which is pretty much "an American institution" if you think about it. Pakistan doesn't depend on US aid either: $21 billion was given to Pakistan from 2001-2011 by the US, & Pakistan has incurred losses of $68 billion in that period. And the Pakistani economy is still growing. Pakistan doesn't need US "aid" to survive, & I can post your figures to prove that. So please, get this thought out of your head that Pakistan needs US aid to survive.



Who was babysitting who?



There is a difference between the American people & the American government. Most American people today do not even support most of the actions of the US government.

Every cooperation was military/ strategic based where the US was providing some sort of 'direct' aid in some fashion from 47. With India its an economic partnership where they US benefit from it. you seem to be trying hard to deflect the simple concept. India- Us= economic , bilateral beneficial relationship with zero " military aid" ties.

While Pakistan was a Russian hedge, got-military aid , economic direct aid with next to zero economic benefit to the US ( rather a huge deficit for the US). you can try to show parity in both countries relationships with the US but it does not carry water in the real world or among a single reputable source.

Since 2002, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) is providing over $5.1 billion in support for education, health, energy, economic growth, good governance, earthquake reconstruction, and flood relief and recovery. USAID's programs are an essential part of the U.S. commitment to Pakistan and its people

I don't know what stats you want to show that Pakistan that proves pak does not need aid- while we see IMF being requested to send the last tranche post haste. I don't how you have the money to handle the 12 billion loss due to the floods... please indulge me in your ' reputable" economic sources that some how have outsmarted the entire worlds economist , including yours to have you claim "we don't need aid" . But if you need it you need it- no shame in it. India needed and still takes it. and that 68 billion dollar loss is whose numbers?

Finally most Americans support most actions of the govt, not all.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

The US still has 45000 troops in Iraq to ensure that the supply of oil to the US does not stop. Similarly, there will still be abundant number of US troops in Afghanistan in the following years, even though Obama has promised the withdrawal of troops in 2014, starting from this year, just like he promised the complete withdrawal of troops, & the end of the Iraq War to get himself elected for his first term.

If we look at Iraq we can clearly see how regime change has gone wrong. On the false pretext of WMds (that never existed in Iraq under Saddam Hussein) America deliberately violated Iraq's sovereignty to pursue an agenda of regime change, so as to install a pro-Western pro American client regime in Iraq and exploit its oil resources and gain a strong strategic foothold in the Middle East.Considerable damage has already been done as a result of that. Not only Iraq has suffered greatly due to the ensuing power vaccum, turmoil and factionalism, but also America's reputation and prestige have rapidly shrunk thanks to war mongering George Bush.

My question is why USA did not invade Zimbabwe to help the peoples of Zimbabwe from the oppression of dictator Mugabey. If they invaded Iraq because Saddam was cruel dictator then why they only did lip services for peoples of Zimbabwe without any military actions against Mugabe. I think the only reasons they did not went there is because they did not had any interests in that region. I don't think Iraqi peoples said to america

Hey, America. come on help us .We've got a dictator here, and he's killing everyone who disagrees with him, stealing the oil and building a nuclear bomb."

The American reply, "OK, we'll send in the troops, but it'll cost you lives of thousands of innocent peoples and your country will get in much worse situation than it was during dictator rule.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

During the Taliban regime, did not they take away the rights and freedoms of the Afghan people leaving them without hope of a bright future?

Taliban ruled Afghanistan from September 1996 and why USA did not went there in 1996 to help local Afghan because Taliban were oppressing their rights? Why America thought about Taliban after 9/11 when they gave asylum to Osama who were involved in 9/11 according to US. What America thoughts about Talibans when they were fighting with their communist enemies? Where they got all their weapons from to fight with mighty USSR? What USA did to rebuild Afghanistan after Russia left Afghanistan in destruction ? I also asked some questions which you did not answered

The United States of America claims to care for the innocent people of Afghanistan yet keeps on striking civilian targets. Everyday, as the United States makes tall claims about being a humanitarian country, hundreds of people are dying and suffering unimaginable losses. What has United States achieved so far from this war but the harassment of innocent people?

As America escalates its offensive, the terrorists fight back by targeting more and more civilians of the same country as they cannot harm America so they vent out their anger on the same innocent people of Afghanistan. The common man is caught between the hammer and the anvil, there is no relief from any side, no one is there to look after the innocent people of Afghanistan and they are paying the price for a crime they did not commit.

Where were the United States and its intelligence while these terrorists were making strong holds in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan and while they were planning to attack America? Why did they not catch these organizations while they were gaining strength? Why is this war being prolonged when no positive outcome is being achieved? How can America justify killing so many innocent civilians?


Life of people in Afghanistan and Pakistan has become a living hell due to the policies of people who have no right to interfere so blatantly in another country's affairs. If this war had achieved some goals and brought about peace for the innocent people, it would have been fully justified. By ruining the lives of so many people, America is fueling this wave of terrorism. The hurt, disappointed, lost and grief stricken youth, who have lost all hope of a future, join hands with the terrorists, trying to strike back and numb the pain of their loss.

These terrorists are like a pest and the war is the scenario that they seek. Anti-American sentiment among the masses suits their purpose. They have a whole population of grieving individuals to brain wash and recruit.

All these policy and strategy makers, the great thinker's should join hands and find a non-military solution to this problem. America is not helping anyone by continuing to bombard Afghanistan. This problem of terrorism can be fought at an intellectual level. Give these people a choice of joining hands with America to fight against terrorism.

America should concentrate on building trust in the hearts of these affected people and they will strike back against terrorists. Masses in Afghanistan do not support terrorism but by killing people indiscriminately, is sowing the seeds for a whole generation of would be terrorists in these areas. United States should stop this war and start to find alternate ways to combat terrorism.

 

[JayAtl]

Taliban ruled Afghanistan from September 1996 and why USA did not went there in 1996 to help local Afghan because Taliban were oppressing their rights? Why America thought about Taliban after 9/11 when they gave asylum to Osama who were involved in 9/11 according to US. What America thoughts about Talibans when they were fighting with their communist enemies? Where they got all their weapons from to fight with mighty USSR? What USA did to rebuild Afghanistan after Russia left Afghanistan in destruction ? I also asked some questions which you did not answered.......
.

I just don't get this join hands and find a solution put forth by Imran Khan and some. Question is with whom? the folks who want to establish a caliphate? who think anybody that is a non Muslim or is not following their interpretation of Islam deserves a death sentence?

Some other points you noted " Why America thought about Taliban after 9/11 when they gave asylum to Osama who were involved in 9/11 according to US"

First it's not just according to the US only as you stated, it is an established fact. If you want an honest debate we have to keep the conspiracy theories aside please. Second, The US did attempt to kill Osma under Bill Clinton in the 90"s when he attacked consulates and USS Cole. You're right about the US walking away from Afghanistan in 80's was a misstep and was much debated here stateside. Nobody then again claims the US was omnipotent . Fact is-the American public would not have allowed US intervening earlier just because some fundamentalist took over a country because you guys would have said the US is attacking Muslims.

Next you claim " The United States of America claims to care for the innocent people of Afghanistan yet keeps on striking civilian targets".

How do you account for such a statement? This statement reads as - the US intentionally picks civilians targets , disregards civilian populated areas and is basically acts like John Wayne. I will tell you sir as a husband of a Marine, that US has the highest standards of engagement to the detriment of its soldiers lives. You ask for and make a plea for a more humanistic approach yet make a statement as above. Civilians deaths as unfortunate as they are are far more massive in other folks armies, intentional and and done with callous. Mistakes have been made and it is deeply regretable by the US military

You go to say " All these policy and strategy makers, the great thinker's should join hands and find a non-military solution to this problem"

Also say- " As America escalates its offensive, the terrorists fight back by targeting more and more civilians of the same country as they cannot harm America so they vent out their anger on the same innocent people of Afghanistan. The common man is caught between the hammer and the anvil, there is no relief from any side, no one is there to look after the innocent people of Afghanistan and they are paying the price for a crime they did not commit."

Then end with " All these policy and strategy makers, the great thinker's should join hands and find a non-military solution to this problem"

So finally let us look at your strategy advise, your way-

• Pakistan has tried its " peace initiative" yes? What came of it? did they cease blowing your innocent people?

• No rather we saw this : Pakistan's Army Battles Taliban 100 KM from Capital Pakistan's Army Battles Taliban 100 KM from Capital | News | English

So I end with asking this - Do you want to go back to that tired and failed strategy, is that what you are asking everyone to bank on again?