Underground Runways

[shehbazi2001]

Shehbazi, the flying mechanics and aircraft handling while landing in an underground airfield and onboard an aircraft carrier are very different. I haven’t landed on either of these so all my/our discussion is all theory based rather than practical. While deck landings have been going on since many decades, but no one has ever dared operating a jet fighter at an underground airfield at regular basis. It’s too risky and operationally un-viable.

Your idea of moving runway is very interesting but again it has many strings attached. The first thing that needs modification are the aircrafts. Carrier operating aircrafts have very robust landing gears, struts and come with an arrester hook. So all the fighters will need a major mod here.

Secondly, how do you plan to move this 4000 feet (more than a kilometre long) giant in a single piece from Sargodha to ( let’s say) Pindi Bhatian ? It’s impossible with the current road infrastructure. And also the whole world will know anyway whenever and wherever it is being moved. Hence no surprises for the enemy.

Thirdly, an aircraft carrier is never alone but sails with the whole battle group and it’s very well protected. How do you foresee the protection of land based moving runway? We will need number of AAA, SAM , Crotales , missiles and other defences that will be moving with it where ever it goes...hence another logistical nightmare.

On a usual airfield, fighters are much protected, well spread and it’s not easy to destroy them all. But will this moving runway parked near Kallar Kahar, It’s like putting all the eggs (60 to 70 fighters) in one basket and making job easy for the enemy.

IMO its not a workable idea. It will be very costly and redundant before even put into service. In our scenario, we have ample amount of FOBs/ MOBs that are very well spread from Skurdu to Karachi. These airfields serve our purpose very well and are more than enough. While PAF has operated from existing motorways and road runways, I don’t think that a moving runway has any future in our arena or even elsewhere.

Perhaps I did not use the proper words for changing a little bit the location of runway in the spanwise direction. I did not mean "Transport" of runway rather it meant just a few hundred or may be just 200 to 500 feet sideways movement while remaining at the same location and same airbase.

An attack coming at tree-top level will pull-up just in front of (mostly) runway. If during the dive or just before the attack formation arrives, runway slips to the side, the fighter can do nothing. A fighter jet can't drop bombs sideways.

The figure of 4000 feet was based on the runway length required for fully loaded F-16. However with the use of catapult, I think we can reduce it to half easily. Thus 2000 feet seems managable length for moving.

For Satishkumar, the ships too carry water reservoir with themselves, as far as I know. Correct me if some new technology has come but you cant use the salt water of ocean for steam turbines of nuclear power plants equipping aircraft super carriers. Thus the ships dont take water from ocean although it seems so.

Thanks x_man for your participation on the topic. Although we consider it just an imagination, we still dont know what North Koreans have done so far and whether it is still a reality or not.

For your point of modifications to aircrafts, I just remember the earliest british aircraft carriers that had decks of rubber. Thus they could use their ordinary fighters without much modifications. They used the belly-landing on rubber decks. Although this concept did not work at that time, the rubber deck "should" allow land-based aircrafts to land without much modifications except that arrestor hook. Again it needs to be tested.

 

[aboutimeee]

Steam is used for what?I have seen steam in several videos (Air Craft Landing on Carriers) but don't know what's the function of steam :o.

The commonly-used steam catapult relies on the availability of large quantities of high-pressure steam- found in the vast majority of 20th century capital ships. The steam charges a steam accumulator so that it may be released faster than it can be produced by the ship.

The steam catapult consists of two slotted cylinders similar in principle to those used by the Clegg & Samuda atmospheric railway. The cylinders—typically 18 inches in diameter—contain free pistons connected to a shuttle which protrudes through a slot in the flight deck. The nosewheel of the aircraft to be launched is attached to the shuttle by a launch bar.

 

[aboutimeee]

during ww2 due to 24hours allied bombing Germans built massive underground factories and research laboratories storage depots in 100s.
both American and Russian have under ground headquarters and command stations, missile silos, submarines basses. during the cold war the Americans had a underground airbase in solid ice. area 51 also spouse to have underground "stuff".
for building an underground airbase you just need 2 things, brains and money. every other problem can be solved.
just imagine what other top secret under ground stuff they have.
English Russia Russian Underground Submarine Base
Cities of the Underworld - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.A.F.F. Report: Underground Bases

 

[TOPGUN]

During the cold war era iam sure some of u remember that USAF U-2 spyplane's use to be based at one of our bases that is use to make recon mission over Russia (soviet union) i wonder if this aircraft was taking off from a underground base or just being stored underground ??

 

[Wingman]

Is it true that PAF has underground facility to park aircrafts??? After landing they go straight in the underground hangers.

 

[mean_bird]

Is it true that PAF has underground facility to park aircrafts??? After landing they go straight in the underground hangers.

I don't think any such specific information would be de-classified and even if someone knew, he won't be talking about it on the forums.

Having said that, I am sure they would have some sort of such facilities either underground or hardened facilities especially after what happened with Egypt, no serious airforce would let its plane in such a vulnerable position.

 

[vizier]

Also from front lines ZEL can be used in addition to underground runway take off and after fighter interceptors finish their job they return to underground runways and hangars behind. While next batch of interceptors are on their way to front lines.
If you Zel launch a fighter against a bvr fighter from say 50km FLIR won't detect it(ir smoke screen like red phosphorus can also be applied while launch) and the enemy fighter has much less time to react with bvr missiles wrt the bvr-radar detection range of 100-200km. Combined with less costly frontal aspect rcs reduction measures and cross eye jammer equipment it could even be a counter against next gen. threats.

 

[Arsalan]

Also from front lines ZEL can be used in addition to underground runway take off and after fighter interceptors finish their job they return to underground runways and hangars behind. While next batch of interceptors are on their way to front lines.
If you Zel launch a fighter against a bvr fighter from say 50km FLIR won't detect it(ir smoke screen like red phosphorus can also be applied while launch) and the enemy fighter has much less time to react with bvr missiles wrt the bvr-radar detection range of 100-200km. Combined with less costly frontal aspect rcs reduction measures and cross eye jammer equipment it could even be a counter against next gen. threats.

intresting,

can you provide as an article link to read more about it!

it sounds strange and intresting

thanks man!

 

[Wingman]

Steam is used for what?I have seen steam in several videos (Air Craft Landing on Carriers) but don't know what's the function of steam :o.

To generate power to that extent an aircraft can take off easily

 

[hocuspocush]

both American and Russian have under ground headquarters and command stations, missile silos, submarines basses. during the cold war the Americans had a underground airbase in solid ice. area 51 also spouse to have underground "stuff".
for building an underground airbase you just need 2 things, brains and money. every other problem can be solved.

I totally agree. With the money and the brains, any amount of engineering challenges can be solved.

The government can build multiple levels where hangars, ammo depot, Command and control, etc with the top two levels being dedicated for runways with an internal lift to transport the aircraft from lower levels to top level. As a thought, the runways could be slightly raised and assisted with catapult. In regards to vortices, the underground runways could have air suction pumps/blowers to dissipate air.

In today's century, where dubai is making a complete island in the water without disturbing the natural flora of the sea, and architects planning to build resorts under water at a depth of 30-60 ft., I don't think anything is impossible with money and brains.

And also, a lot of camouflaging can be done to hide these bases from enemy airplanes.

 

[vizier]

You are welcome my friend here are some links
The Zero-Length Launch Fighter
and also I think it is technically possible to land the aircraft by hardened skids on non concrete flattened runways. Here is a video of Su 27 belly landing.
"http://www.metacafe.com/watch/982064/russian_knights_belly_landing/"
What left is some frontal aspect rcs reduction make-up on our interceptors to handle full asepect radar stealth fighters of future.

Also I have read in Sinodefence forum that China is considering to buy Yak 141 freestyle and make licenced production of that vtol fighter. An f15 silent eagle style frontal aspect make up would make the Yak 141 counter current expensive 5th gen. fighters as well.

 

[indiatech]

Most of the highways in Taiwan and some countries have been well tested for takeoff and landing of aircrafts including F-16 for emergency situations.

 

[SSGPA1]

I am starting this thread to understand and discuss the underground airstrips or runways and may be associated things ... the surface or land into a large opening that leads to underground runway.

If it is up to me then I will have very light interceptors with vertical take off capability .... these birds will be called JSF Hunters!

Light weight and powerful engine will give them a great ceiling, great manoeuvreability and longer range.

It will be cost effective in all senses including logistics. Fuel consumption will be high due to vertical take off.

North Korea need to learn lesson from the first and second Gulf wars. I don't think under ground runways would help because of the technology like bunker busters and TOW etc.

North Koreans should invest in ICBMs.

 

[vizier]

Sud-Est SE 5000 / SE 5003 Baroudeur - experimental fighter
The Sud-Est SE5003 Baroudeur

Here is an early concept of using jettisonable trolleys for launch and landing skids for recovery that would give fighters the ability to use grass and rough terrains removing the limitation of static airbases.

Even I think your lightweight F-7 pgs or F 5 in Iran's inventory can be converted to use this approach. Also when I remember mig 21 bison's low rcs with ram and painting and its low detectability in red flag excersizes, I assume that the engine blades are not very visible from the front as in the case of f 16s or other planes. These fighters with latest ram application and the unpredictability coming from the use of any terrain will increase their ability against next generation planes in addition to their very low cost.

 

[Comet]

It is a very good Idea and should be sought by PAF.... Specially in Potohar region and Baluchistan where there are mountains.