UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[ziaulislam]

Some idiots were claiming that the M2K-9's are old and obsolete. Here is something for you to digest:

View attachment 371052

the main thought is that by the time we get them they will be nearly obsolete
whats the best case scenario for Pakistan on mirages..i bet a replacement comes, which would be a mix of rafale and f-16s
even under most optimum condition this would happen only after 2025(considering if deal is finalized today rafale will be delivered no sooner than 2021-22), by time these are integrated and sorties are generated enough it would be 2028...?
so this would be the time at which india plans to replace its mirages (2030, though obviously seeing how india work it will not happen)

and this is assuming UAE wants to sell them
now if UAE wants to give them up before they get their rafales, at cheaper price seeing PAF is broke, with willingness from french side to support the package(shouldnt be an issue if UAE is trying) than it might be an option if F-16s are not coming and IF PAF is not willing to give strike role to Thunders and IF the next gen program is delayed more than expected

and i realized that there are many IF from three parties UAE, France and pakistan
and again we know french are good at "getting things done"

 

[Khafee]

the main thought is that by the time we get them they will be nearly obsolete
whats the best case scenario for Pakistan on mirages..i bet a replacement comes, which would be a mix of rafale and f-16s
even under most optimum condition this would happen only after 2025(considering if deal is finalized today rafale will be delivered no sooner than 2021-22), by time these are integrated and sorties are generated enough it would be 2028...?
so this would be the time at which india plans to replace its mirages (2030, though obviously seeing how india work it will not happen)

and this is assuming UAE wants to sell them
now if UAE wants to give them up before they get their rafales, at cheaper price seeing PAF is broke, with willingness from french side to support the package(shouldnt be an issue if UAE is trying) than it might be an option if F-16s are not coming and IF PAF is not willing to give strike role to Thunders and IF the next gen program is delayed more than expected

and i realized that there are many IF from three parties UAE, France and pakistan
and again we know french are good at "getting things done"

I had decided NOT to comment on this thread, but your humility and realistic approach, changed that.

The M2K-9's we have have been going through various structural upgrades & strengthening, as well as periodic avionics upgrades.

IF the PAF were to get them, they would be getting a very good front line aircraft.
5yrs down the road, the a/c PAF gets will not be the ones we operate today, but further upgrades would have been added by then as well.

The French would support the transfer, with tech, arms and updates - no issues. This is right from the horses mouth.

BUT all of this depends on, if we sell. For now, this is not the case.

Regards

 

[ziaulislam]

I had decided NOT to comment on this thread, but your humility and realistic approach, changed that.

The M2K-9's we have have been going through various structural upgrades & strengthening, as well as periodic avionics upgrades.

IF the PAF were to get them, they would be getting a very good front line aircraft.
5yrs down the road, the a/c PAF gets will not be the ones we operate today, but further upgrades would have been added by then as well.

The French would support the transfer, with tech, arms and updates - no issues. This is right from the horses mouth.

BUT all of this depends on, if we sell. For now, this is not the case.

Regards

indeed, it will all depend upon UAE price and timing rather than anything else, the right price and right timing it will happen otherwise no.

we know that realistically speaking odd of f-16s coming is low, thunder is a very good aircraft but one fit for everything has a disadvantage, it is probably never going to be nearly as good as mirages for "strategic strike" role

so reason why PAF is not going to go for it will be the price and timing from UAE

everybody is saying j-10 china this and china that, Chinese will never supply you with free-bees, yes a generous credit line but that it, remember even the jf-17 initially block was on credit line, f-22p on credit line and even probably the sub deal is on credit line, there is a limit to what extent Pakistan will want this.

The question of whether this would happen or not is difficult to answer, my opinion is no, UAE doesn't seem to have a good strategic interest in providing Pakistan free-bees, they would probably like to provide it to Iraqi sunni population some how or other arab countries(as news suggest, http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...rab-emirates-france-mirage-fighters/21856393/ ) but if there is going to be a strategic tilt in Pakistan political scenario than this might happen.

does Pakistan want it, i mean any fourth gen aircraft coming at cheaper or price than thunder(30 million) but better or at par capability will be welcomed, ofcourse the first choice would be f-16s but if i am not sure whether we have this option otherwise by now we would have brought a bunch of second hand f-16s, if french offer the same level of support and transfer of technology as they did for mirage 3, and UAE price is right than this will happen, though prospect of all thsi happening is very very low

the reality is which most of our posters will hate me for pointing it out is that army takes the lion shares, leaving very little for any other branch. Army thought process of war is still outdated in the sense that air force is neglected, otherwise you we would have seen a leaner and more equipped air force and army/air force rather than keeping 700,000 troops,obviously i might be wrong in this opinion

for future acquisitions, our budget realistically speaking is stretched to thinnest, with long list of crucial acquisition pending, with exports falling and current account deficit at all time high(despite lower fuel prices that are now all set to rise), additional imports will be difficult, with too much investment needed in health-education-infrastructure, Pakistan is no where near to even the poorest countries when it comes to health-education. CPEC is great push for investment and short term infrastructure lead growth but sustainable growth comes from education-health expansion.
i think most of us already know that CPEC is not viable transit route for most of china any way, as 90% population doesnt even live there

 

[araz]

I had decided NOT to comment on this thread, but your humility and realistic approach, changed that.

The M2K-9's we have have been going through various structural upgrades & strengthening, as well as periodic avionics upgrades.

IF the PAF were to get them, they would be getting a very good front line aircraft.
5yrs down the road, the a/c PAF gets will not be the ones we operate today, but further upgrades would have been added by then as well.

The French would support the transfer, with tech, arms and updates - no issues. This is right from the horses mouth.

BUT all of this depends on, if we sell. For now, this is not the case.

Regards

The french may have problems as well. In 2002 they had 59 aircrafts which were armie de aire 2000/5 which were the ones PAF was interested in. The air frames were going to be upgraded and all the frills and whistles PAF wanted were on offer. The cost remained an issue. If there is to be a sale they might want PAF to take the frsnch planes rather than the UAE ones. There cannot be any sale without the agreement of the provider.
PAF decided in 2002 to not avail the offer at $60 million a pop. I do not think they will go down the route again.
As to those who think UAE M2K9s are junk I am amazed that you guys without any knowledge are purporting views which border on the verge of being moronic. As @Khafee has said the M2k9s are not for sale at the moment and this is how it stands. So please listen to people who know better than you instead of arguing pointlessly.
Regards
A

 

[TOPGUN]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...01/16/cyber-china-f-35-hacking-iran/21862501/


This is ;latest on mirage2000/9 SALE .

You can see this deal is very complex and several air forces are ken to buy these mirages in 2020/2022 when thery become available

IN SHORT IF PAF thought threy could get them for peanuts.......the answer is probably no chance

Any you know seem to know how much PAF is going to spend and how ? the so called peanuts?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Just from Asthetics / Presentation prespective , it would look well
Assumption that by 2017-2018

Work Load bearer : 120 JF17 Thunder
Block 2 Standard

Strike Role : 83 F16 C/D
Strike Role : 40-50 Mirage 2000-9

Air Support : Odd 100 Mirage / 100 F-7PG

• Would imagine we would have retired 120 crafts and added 40 New Thunders / 50 Mirage 2000-9, upcoming few years

If the sale materializes in 2017 or 2018 that is

 

[denel]

Hi,

When you become too clever for yourself---you fall on your ---- ---.

The integration period is for a " newly built aircraft " as described---that does not have an operational manual---and all the bugs need to be removed.

The M2000-9 is not a new aircraft---all its operational capabilities are available and assistance from Emirati air force is available 110%.



Hi,

Pakistan desperately needs strike aircraft and air superiority aircraft for its coastline---corrupt pockets is least of the problems that Pak is facing at this time---.

It is a matter of its integrity that is at stake.

true, but remember with an aircraft of this, entire facilities to maintain, training, parts etc. one is not buying a proverbial hilux that can be serviced and maintenained anywhere. especially with the electronic side; french use a lot of proprieratary smds/processors which are going to have to be mastered.

while the need is there; what i am suggesting is if it not less than a TOC ownership breakpoint it is just not worth the headache. be patience and give time for other avenues to come to fruition. i have examined french electronics up close; i wont ever recommend it.

 

[mrrehan]

OR we can go for another delta wing configuration similar to Mirages J-10B/C which we can customize to suite our needs with FLIR. I my self like Mirage platform which Pakistan has a lot of knowledgeable user of. Guys shortage of money is not problem, but corruption in political layer is and the scarily "nature of few tech advance nations" plus out of the box smart solutions of Pakistani brain in history has also proven as well. Allah willing we will get our option.

 

[Falcon26]

indeed, it will all depend upon UAE price and timing rather than anything else, the right price and right timing it will happen otherwise no.

we know that realistically speaking odd of f-16s coming is low, thunder is a very good aircraft but one fit for everything has a disadvantage, it is probably never going to be nearly as good as mirages for "strategic strike" role

so reason why PAF is not going to go for it will be the price and timing from UAE

everybody is saying j-10 china this and china that, Chinese will never supply you with free-bees, yes a generous credit line but that it, remember even the jf-17 initially block was on credit line, f-22p on credit line and even probably the sub deal is on credit line, there is a limit to what extent Pakistan will want this.

The question of whether this would happen or not is difficult to answer, my opinion is no, UAE doesn't seem to have a good strategic interest in providing Pakistan free-bees, they would probably like to provide it to Iraqi sunni population some how or other arab countries(as news suggest, http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...rab-emirates-france-mirage-fighters/21856393/ ) but if there is going to be a strategic tilt in Pakistan political scenario than this might happen.

does Pakistan want it, i mean any fourth gen aircraft coming at cheaper or price than thunder(30 million) but better or at par capability will be welcomed, ofcourse the first choice would be f-16s but if i am not sure whether we have this option otherwise by now we would have brought a bunch of second hand f-16s, if french offer the same level of support and transfer of technology as they did for mirage 3, and UAE price is right than this will happen, though prospect of all thsi happening is very very low

the reality is which most of our posters will hate me for pointing it out is that army takes the lion shares, leaving very little for any other branch. Army thought process of war is still outdated in the sense that air force is neglected, otherwise you we would have seen a leaner and more equipped air force and army/air force rather than keeping 700,000 troops,obviously i might be wrong in this opinion

for future acquisitions, our budget realistically speaking is stretched to thinnest, with long list of crucial acquisition pending, with exports falling and current account deficit at all time high(despite lower fuel prices that are now all set to rise), additional imports will be difficult, with too much investment needed in health-education-infrastructure, Pakistan is no where near to even the poorest countries when it comes to health-education. CPEC is great push for investment and short term infrastructure lead growth but sustainable growth comes from education-health expansion.
i think most of us already know that CPEC is not viable transit route for most of china any way, as 90% population doesnt even live there

Great post. Better to have a very well equipped and trained ~350k Army than 750k soldiers that aren't well equipped or trained. I think there was a thinking during Musharraf era to downsize the number of Pakistan Army and bolstering navy and Air Force. Then the War on Terror reached Pakistan and I suspect that changed things. With the conclusion of war against terror, perhaps not a bad idea to revisit Musharraf's plan. And you are absolutely right, Pakistan needs to change its military thinking and realize that the wars it will fight in the future will rely on the competency and performance of its Air Force and navy than the size of its army.

 

[MastanKhan]

true, but remember with an aircraft of this, entire facilities to maintain, training, parts etc. one is not buying a proverbial hilux that can be serviced and maintenained anywhere. especially with the electronic side; french use a lot of proprieratary smds/processors which are going to have to be mastered.

while the need is there; what i am suggesting is if it not less than a TOC ownership breakpoint it is just not worth the headache. be patience and give time for other avenues to come to fruition. i have examined french electronics up close; i wont ever recommend it.

Hi,

I agree with what you are saying---. I would have liked to see some of the other J series in Paf colors.

Wars are avoided with what the enemy perceives of your weapons that you have and what they can do---AND NOT WHAT YOU THINK THEY CAN DO.

Because not you---but the enemy only knows its true weaknesses---just Like Gen Musharraf knew the true weakness of pak military after 9/11 and agreed right away to join the coalition.

So---currently---there is nothing in the arsenal that would stop the enemy other than the tac nucs---and that is a terrible position to be in.

Nothing like that, absolutely false news.



Ask this gentleman. I have already made my position clear on this thread. Not going to repeat it

View attachment 371123

@Khafee

Talking to some of them is like hitting the head against the wall.

 

[Khafee]

@Khafee

Talking to some of them is like hitting the head against the wall.

The funny part is when they claim to know more than a guy who is actually serving. Do they even read what they actually type?

 

[CriticalThought]

The funny part is when they claim to know more than a guy who is actually serving. Do they even read what they actually type?

I do know what I have read so far. And it does not provide ongoing maintenance costs. And no one is talking about ensuring we are on the top of the technology curve.

Whatever info you have provided tells me it has the same capability planned for JF-17 Block 3. And the only reason why I am 'banging my head against the wall' is the very real possibility that this becomes a white elephant which diverts our limited funds from other avenues. Or it becomes a cause for complacence and we stop looking for better aircraft.

To everyone else on the thread, do you feel confident about an aircraft which the army chief has to tout for the airforce chief? There is something fundamentally shady and broken here that makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Great post. Better to have a very well equipped and trained ~350k Army than 750k soldiers that aren't well equipped or trained. I think there was a thinking during Musharraf era to downsize the number of Pakistan Army and bolstering navy and Air Force. Then the War on Terror reached Pakistan and I suspect that changed things. With the conclusion of war against terror, perhaps not a bad idea to revisit Musharraf's plan. And you are absolutely right, Pakistan needs to change its military thinking and realize that the wars it will fight in the future will rely on the competency and performance of its Air Force and navy than the size of its army.

Depends.

For Pakistan, labour isn't a scarcity, and if small arms, training, body armour, etc, production is all local (as per Pakistani labour, material and currency costs), then producing a lot of fairly well trained soldiers isn't necessarily expensive. To put it another way, having that many soldiers may not be costly enough to impact weapon system procurement.

At some point, someone needs to level the buck at whoever is responsible - directly and indirectly - for not tuning the Pakistani economy for generating high-value exports (e.g. essential foods, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, factory systems and long-term life-cycle support, etc). If the country sells valuable things, it'll pull in dollars, and those dollars will help create great jobs, and those jobs will in some shape or form feed into the public coffers.

 

[CriticalThought]

Depends.

For Pakistan, labour isn't a scarcity, and if small arms, training, body armour, etc, production is all local (as per Pakistani labour, material and currency costs), then producing a lot of fairly well trained soldiers isn't necessarily expensive. To put it another way, having that many soldiers may not be costly enough to impact weapon system procurement.

At some point, someone needs to level the buck at whoever is responsible - directly and indirectly - for not tuning the Pakistani economy for generating high-value exports (e.g. essential foods, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, factory systems and long-term life-cycle support, etc). If the country sells valuable things, it'll pull in dollars, and those dollars will help create great jobs, and those jobs will in some shape or form feed into the public coffers.

Sir you are avoiding the elephant in the room

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sir you are avoiding the elephant in the room

I'm not going to "tell it as it is..." Ask Trump.