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UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

JF-17 is a crap compared to M2K-9 & F-16s, those who wish to hear that, smile now and be happy.

JF-17 is such a crap, that PAF transferred its best pilots, piloting the super duper F-16s to fly a crap like JF-17s.

JF-17 is such a crap that the best pilots having flown F-16s aren't willing to go back to F-16s from the JF-17s.

JF-17 is such a crap, that its HOTAS & HUD systems are much pilot friendlier compared to the current F-16s we have.

And sooooooooooooooooooooo many other crappy things about JF-17 to mention.

M2K and F-16s are the best.

:cheers:

sir no point getting emotional! all i am saying is that currently JF-17 is a good fighter much much better than our current F-16s a/b's however, M2K & BLK52s are in a different league altogether! its like saying a BMW M3 is as good as an ENZO ferrari!

JF-17 is a fomidable beast & by any account is currently the best fighter in the PAF currently but having the best amongst your own fleet is not a good thing when other kids on the block got ENZOs & lamborghini's
 
Best option for PAF would be to get a good high altitude long range SAM system, China has a good system and they are willing to give it to us.

Whatever we get, even M2Ks at this stage, we can't hold back the IAF if we go to war at such stage, only will make it a little slower process.

Better to get a good LR-SAM network for may be one third the price of the second hand M2Ks, safe the money of this deal and speed up the JF-17 program or buy more J-10s.

We can never achieve parity with IAF, nor can hold it fully, but we can defend with a good LR-SAM network, supported by the PAF aircrafts.

SAM networks are cheap, easily deployable, and much faster to induct compared to aircrafts which will take years to become operational.

There are many ways to nullify or reduce the effectiveness of IAF.
 
sir no point getting emotional! all i am saying is that currently JF-17 is a good fighter much much better than our current F-16s a/b's however, M2K & BLK52s are in a different league altogether! its like saying a BMW M3 is as good as an ENZO ferrari!

JF-17 is a fomidable beast & by any account is currently the best fighter in the PAF currently but having the best amongst your own fleet is not a good thing when other kids on the block got ENZOs & lamborghini's

Buddy, am not getting emotional, just stating facts and the post wasn't intended for you :)

Sometimes the little Mehran will do the job, which may be ENZO's or Lamborghini's can't do or cost too much.
 
Hi,

I am not over or under critical of the jf 17---ADEOS AMIGO you missed the point and just made a one liner out of all what I have posted in many pages---jf 17 in itself is nothing---a nobody---but in contest with something else---in relation to something else---it becomes something. The discussion is about the m2k9----and JF 17 won't even be a match to it for surely even in the second mlu and possibly the third mlu as well---.

This goes to show that a person only wants to look at what the mind allows it to---it gets prejudiced when something goes against the grain.

Hi Mastan Khan,
First i would like to tell you that, i didn't miss the point of your post, but rather didn't completely agree to it, and that's why the one liner popped out.
Mastan you avoided my prime question in the first place. I asked you about the price, but instead of answering that, you went down the emotional road, and tried to explain it with the cost of freedom and sovereignty. I agree to that, there is no cost of freedom. But in the real world we also face an equally important issue and that is money. You know it, that every machine has an optimal cost associated with it, beyond that, it starts loosing its worth. Same is the case with M2k. its no different.
Now i tried to inquire this from you, because there has been reports rather call them speculations that these UAE mirages(which i would love to see in our inventory) are very expensive, somewhere between 40 to 50+ million. I don't know if its true or not, but if that is really the case, then the "cost-benefit" scenario acquire more importance then ever. Don't you think by 50 million we can get a top end brand new fighter from anywhere around the world. If not by 50 surely by 60 to 65 it will be easily available a genuine 4.5 generation Ac. And again if we are able to buy for 50 million then i am sure it wont be difficult to buy for 65. your views on that.

secondly you mentioned a lot of things related to these jets, but there are loop holes in your theory. First UAE would only release these babies when they get Rafael, not before, and when they are gonna get Rafael is something we don't know.

what about the spare issues when the mirage assembly line in reality is closed.
The only good thing for us in them would be that they are battle ready and easily absorbed by our air force, not much of a problem there.

You also talked about PAF, sleeping for a good 40 years, and kept bluffing the nation for their incompetence. Well sir I don’t represent PAF here, but certainly what you said here is not totally correct either, and I beg to disagree with that.
Tell me why did we get F-16s in first place? Just because the west was interested to safe guard our sovereignty, or, they were more interested to safe guard their own vested interests? Why the west suddenly changed its attitude after cold war and fall of Soviet Union? Why the heck Presler amendments ere put in place? Why were we squeezed more after Nuclear tests in 1998? And then why the west changed its attitude suddenly after 9/11??
PAF was not sleeping, and every thing we asked was coming like cakes in our way. If sanctions didn't hit us hard in 1991, blocking the sale of F-16s, we wouldn’t have faced the situation we are facing now. It was for the first time, that we, as a nation realized we had been dodged, so it was not PAF's fault only.

It was also extremely unfortunate that we couldn’t get Mirages in 1990s. But let see what more the world had to offer, which PAF didn’t capitalize on??? In realty beyond F-16s and Mirages, there was nothing, no Gripen, Rafael, or Eurofighter, absolutely nothing.
India went on because their ally didn’t deceive them as ours, so they were lucky to procure good Air assets from Russia.

Let me also add, that Mirages are as prone to sanctions as any other western fighter. It does not mean that if U.S is not producing them, they will be completely off troubles for us. No sir, if the American mood changes again, its influence is enough on France to sanction us as they did after the nuclear tests. So no real guarantee their also.

Apart from that, lets analyze, another aspect, and that would be Money. From where the hell would PAF brought in the extra funds to buy a non US fighter? Since our funds were blocked by US, and then later they compensated us by wheat. Money is the most important aspect, if you don’t have it, then the world don’t consider you more then a piece of crap. And we are well aware of economic conditions of Pakistan during 1990s.So why to blame only PAF for our mistakes, as a whole nation??

PAF, when got the chance and things got a bit better, made 101% correct decisions, by starting indigenous or J.V, what ever you call it fighter program. It doesn’t matter if we if agree on its capabilities. It was vital and the good thing about it is, PAF is more then happy with it. This is just absurd to say, that PAF is arrogant, and makes only bold claims about the past. At the end they are going to fight the real war with it and they do know about it. So its pointless for them to deceive themselves.
Other then that you also said, PAF shouldn’t be proud of the only air force in the world to manufacture a fighter jet. Dear it’s not their fault if you don’t have an industrial base, they are forced to take this burden, same goes for the army, and they are rightfully proud of it.

Then you said something about BVR, and SD-10 weight issue, which I totally disagree with. Sd-10 is well into production phase. It may not be as good as AMRAAMs, but not bad either. BVR is the focal point which lead to the production of thunders, and now you suddenly believe its not capable enough to ingrate and use it effectively. PAF top brass is not composed of a bunch of lunatics, who are still persistent of procuring them in huge numbers.

Another thing you said about the unproven platform, which in realty is no more a point. If it is then what about Eurofighter, Rafael, Grippen, Raptor , and the list goes on and on You need to take the first step, in order to run, some where there should be a start and we by the grace of GOD, did make a start . Its over responsibility to run along the race now.
Your predictions about the later blocks of thunder equivalent to M2k9 are totally wrong and mere speculations.

Other then that, what about their decision to acquire block 52, AWACS, Il-76 refuellers, FC 20, Falco Drones, Spada for air defense etc etc, are they really sleeping??.
What about opting out of further acquisition of block-52, that was in itself a
Very smart move, for many reasons, One you got the taste of a modern fighter, secondly you got the rest of your F-16s inventory assured of being upgraded to that level, which would have been extremely difficult, if we had not purchased a batch of block 52, lastly you got a good amount of weapons, which were needed more then anything else. So in my view PAF took full advantage of the situation.

FC 20 coming by 2015 means PAF did its ground work well before hand, and that also imply that we will be getting them before any other nation. It also negates the sanction issue related to F-16s.

The bad situation we are in today is just because of` those 20 damn years of sanctions and nothing wrong on behalf of PAF.

There is a lot to talk about, but unless we speak truthfully and not because of blind love or hate. And as I said earlier, the only good point for us in these mirages would be that they are battle ready and easily absorbed by our air force, not much of a problem there, and thus they would act only as a stop gap measure and nothing more. There should be no comparison between them and JF-17 for that matter.

There are a lot of Pros and Cons related to them, and now one should use his/her grey matter to check whether Pros exceeds to Cons or vice versa. And then make a rational decision for their procurement.

BTW Mastan Sahib , I have a great respect for you and your lovely posts, but I do have a right to agree or disagree with your views.

Sorry for making it long , and hope it has compensated for the one liner.


:pakistan::pakistan:


Adios
 
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Makes no sense to buy used jets from UAE or anyone for that matter. I agree with PAKace that these are junk and we shouldn't spend a dollar on these old aircrafts. Reminds me of the saying "One Man's Junk is Another Man's Treasure", needless to say it is still junk.


What should we do? Build on the JF-17s, induct FC1, whilst the economy recovers and REMAIN PATIENT, God may grant us something better n far mokre lethal in the future insha'Allah.
 
i came across this might be of some interest you to all those thinking the UAE will sell their M2Ks at all!

The first Desert Falcons arrived in the UAE in May 2005, and production continues. Versions of this aircraft have also been entered in a number of international competitions, including Brazil’s F-X2 (eliminated) and India’s MMRCA competition.
.......In the course of development, 2 key issues came up with respect to the F-16 Block 60. One was the familiar issue of source code control for key avionics and electronic warfare systems. The other was weapons carriage.

As a rule, the software source codes that program the electronic-warfare, radar, and data buses on US fighters are too sensitive for export. Instead, the USA sent the UAE “object codes” (similar to APIs), which allow them to add to the F-16’s threat library on their own.

The other issue concerned the Black Shahine derivative of MBDA’s Storm Shadow stealth cruise missile. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) defines 300 km as the current limit for cruise missiles, and the terms of the sale allow the United States to regulate which weapons the F-16s can carry. Since the Black Shahine was deemed to have a range of over 300km, the US State Department refused to let Lockheed Martin change the data bus to permit the F-16E/Fs to carry the missile. It is believed that the Mirage 2000v9 upgrades the UAE has purchased from France will address this issue, giving the UAE a platform capable of handling their new acquisition


The UAE’s F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet


if the UAE cannot load their crusie missiles onto their F-16s and can only put them on their mirages i doubt they will sell the platform! unless ofcourse the US allows the integration of the shaheen crusie missile onto the F-16s!
 
Hi,

Maybe in a way---maybe PAF needs someone from outside to look inside and tell them what is wrong with the picture. You have to look at it this way---why is one branch of the millitary is well equipped and prepared and the other one is running around in circles with no direction. Would the disparity between these two cohesive bodies not surprise an ardent observer---shouldn't the question be asked at the lowest level and then going to the highest level---why such is the case.

Why is the most important part of the equation is still operating out dated out moded equipment---isn't this a concern to any pakistanis---why after all these years, we are barely a step or two ahead of where we were in 90--91.

PAF has out dated Aircraft and equipment thats true, but its not that PAF is moving in circles, the bitter fact is that PAF belongs to a country that has the worst foreign policy along with your corrupt government PAF never was able to get new equipment even when they had money. PAF planned to get aircraft but since the image of your country was so bad due to corruption, terrorism, extremism and Martial laws, no body was willing to give PAF anything. You say that Army is well equipped or modernized, then you should also know the difference between a tank and aircraft. Its not that simple to make a aircraft. You should be thankful that PAF turns scrap into flights and are willing to fly even those aircraft which are not fit to fly. the engineers work round the clock to make sure that things remain in there best conditions. The Air defense of PAF is always on a state of war, these people dont give away there lives and youth just to hear this.
It is PAF that has made up its own Automation system for air defense, saving millions of dollors for PAkistan, the same system is being adopted by army and navy now.

Isn't it a matter of concern that paf is no show at kargil---isn't it a matter of concern that iaf's mig 25's flew over pakistan whenever they pleased to---isn't it a matter of concern that even after 8 years of 9/11we got nothing substantial to show by the air force---.

PAF was a no show at Kargil and that was the best decision, DO YOU KNOW WHY?
1. Your Army was so secretive about it that they never bothered bring PAF in the planning.

2. Your Political governemt was dening that it was PAk army ! they said it was Mujahideen, PAF isnt here to support mujaheeden

3. And in the end when the logistics went out with the poor planning and Mr. nawaz sharif accepted that it was Pak army......Then its not a time to cry out for PAF, it was time to face the music.

Pakistanis civilians---pakistani public has let the paf off the hook for over 4 decades---pakistani people have been told lies about operational capabilities of the air force and when the time came to perform either in 1965 or in 1971,paf didnot operate at 110% of its capabilities as it was supposed to do---its effectiveness was barely 60---70 % of its capabilities and were it not for the less than lackluster performance by the iaf, we would really be in a terrible shape. There were incidences of some of the sqdrns performing great tasks, but over all, there was a lack of leadership decision making in the earlier day one and two of the war. There was no appreciation of a surprise in the initial strike missions

Now that you have blamed PAF, IN my next few posts in this thread I shall post in every detail of every sortie that PAF under took in 65 and 71. Let me tell you it was opposite to what you said.

there was no sense of ownership by the karachi af base commander when the navy atlantique took a flight mission bordering india right after kargil.

Do you even know what happened that day ? The call sign was PN-91 or 96. It was on a routine mission in sir creek area (its a marshy area in our southern region. As usual, with utter disregard to Pakistan air defense procedures that naval aircraft took off without coordinating with PAF air defense. during its flight it that area it went into indian territory for good about 10 miles !! during this time it was PAF that tried to warn it a million times through radio communication and even through other civil airliners, The naval aircraft never bothered to reply. Since this aircraft had already pulled off such a stunt the day before India was ready for it this time. Although it came back inside Pak airspace but india had a shot around 5 miles inside Pak airspace. our own fighters were in the air by that time and they had a positive lock on the helicopter which the indians sent in to lift out the derbies. AT this time it was your very own Mr. Nawaz Sharif who nosed in and stopped PAF from shooting the indian helicopter. and the best part is he just said " ITS EVEN NOW"
Those in the navy who have gone through the inquiry, they follow the procedure and coordinate with PAF before going in air, while the rest still nag! with out knowing this whole thing

By the way its not the authority of a Base commander to shoot down anything, Its comes through the political government via AHQ. Sadly PAF is looking for a lion among a political leadership of rabbits and snakes. May be our nation has stopped producing national heroes but the people in blue work day and night to safe guard all those who trust them and the ungrateful ones too.
 
sir no point getting emotional! all i am saying is that currently JF-17 is a good fighter much much better than our current F-16s a/b's however, M2K & BLK52s are in a different league altogether! its like saying a BMW M3 is as good as an ENZO ferrari!

JF-17 is a fomidable beast & by any account is currently the best fighter in the PAF currently but having the best amongst your own fleet is not a good thing when other kids on the block got ENZOs & lamborghini's

Mind my trolling but, just want to share a few thoughts while we're on this. The 2009 BMW M3 is actually on par, if not better for argument's sake, than a 1980 Lamborghini Countach. So in a way if you say JF17 as as BMW M3 (read 2009 model) it should be comparable if not superior, to anything from the 1980's. You see if you talk about Enzo, Reventon, Zonda and the likes, IMO these are more like talking F22 in comba aircraft terms rather Blk52 or M2K. That category could be SLR, Carrera GT, M1 (if BMW actually make that) again these are better than a 2009 M3 but at the same time not in the same league as that of 'the super cars'.
 
Do you even know what happened that day ? The call sign was PN-91 or 96. It was on a routine mission in sir creek area (its a marshy area in our southern region. As usual, with utter disregard to Pakistan air defense procedures that naval aircraft took off without coordinating with PAF air defense. during its flight it that area it went into indian territory for good about 10 miles !! during this time it was PAF that tried to warn it a million times through radio communication and even through other civil airliners, The naval aircraft never bothered to reply. Since this aircraft had already pulled off such a stunt the day before India was ready for it this time. Although it came back inside Pak airspace but india had a shot around 5 miles inside Pak airspace. our own fighters were in the air by that time and they had a positive lock on the helicopter which the indians sent in to lift out the derbies. AT this time it was your very own Mr. Nawaz Sharif who nosed in and stopped PAF from shooting the indian helicopter. and the best part is he just said " ITS EVEN NOW"

unconvincing even to a defense illiterate like me...Was Mr Nawaz watching all this live ? to give command minute by minute ?
 
and that very hotline could've been used to call back ur recc plane..r those manning them so irresponsible ?

You use a wireless radio set for that and its not a hot line. Both the sides need to have the same frequency .

Anyways before you put up such questions , try reading about some common communication procedures, it will save you and me alot of time:hitwall:
 
What has PAF got since 1991 and 2010????In 20 years barely anything new.

JF-17 no doubt a capable fighter but it isn't simply in the league of m2k9.

My brothers are saying that we will get this and we will get that on which i have no doubt.BUT WHEN?????WHEN INDIA GETS F-35 or PAK-FA.

Ok we Cannot compete with INDIA but surely who's mistake is this that we haven't got a single new heavy 4th generation aircraft in 20 years.

Even since 9/11 almost 9 years have passed what has PAF got to show?????.
NOTHING.MLU's of F-16 are yet to begin.

We are Waiting for J-10.And when it will arrive and fully inducted in 2016-2017
the technology would have already moved on.

And don't forget J-10 deal is also for only 36 aircraft which in no way many.People say that ultimately buy 150 J-10.But i bet you at that time PAF would have the same reason no money and then we will again start to Wait and by the time 2020+ we would have J-10 in numbers world would be talking about countering F-22.So we would get left behind again.

And what if war starts tommorow what Aircraft do we have????

I bet you that in 10 years of sanctions and 10 years without sanctions we haven't been able to get anything up to par.and in the next 10 same will happen.

We should not follow blindly our PAF every wrong and right policy.After all they are also humans and Humans make mistakes.But the greatness is in this thing that one should accept mistakes and try to get rid of them.
 
Best option for PAF would be to get a good high altitude long range SAM system, China has a good system and they are willing to give it to us.

Whatever we get, even M2Ks at this stage, we can't hold back the IAF if we go to war at such stage, only will make it a little slower process.

Better to get a good LR-SAM network for may be one third the price of the second hand M2Ks, safe the money of this deal and speed up the JF-17 program or buy more J-10s.

We can never achieve parity with IAF, nor can hold it fully, but we can defend with a good LR-SAM network, supported by the PAF aircrafts.

SAM networks are cheap, easily deployable, and much faster to induct compared to aircrafts which will take years to become operational.

There are many ways to nullify or reduce the effectiveness of IAF.

Sir i fully agree with you pakistan need two high alltitude SAm systems to counter every acusation of indian airforce i think sam system from china of high quality going to help alot and one long range system should be from europe specially France
 
However, funds are limited...and a lackluster economy, feudal elite's monopoly over agriculture and its prohibition over universal education, health care, etc...as well as the elitist monopolies over business, consumer products, etc, and no system of land and wealth-tax collection, etc, will continue to keep Pakistan behind. The civilian elite is very much to blame for most of our problems.

I think you have hit the nail here Mark, people simply fail to realize the importance of economics and in Pakistan's case tax collection. Even in the best of times Pakistan's Treasuries were empty because the tax collection in Pakistan is too low, the biggest earners dont pay a cent in taxes and the Federal Government is forced to borrow more which increases inflation. If we start taxing the rich agriculture land lords today, we can pay off Pakistan's debts in 5 years along with ordering 100 EuroFighters. A PAF pilot made it clear to me that if funds were not a problem they would only be flying Rafales and EuroFighters but they have to also think of the welfare of the nation.

Coming back to the topic, yes M2K-9 is indeed a very capable platform but in my opinion Block 52's are simply superior birds. To say that JF17's doesent stand a chance against the M2K-9 is quite fallacious, and saying that it hardly in the league of F16A is even more. Let me just say how did they come up with the conclusion, what performance parameters have they used as Mark pointed out. In today's modern warfare two birds simply dont go head to head against each other, people are forgetting there are many other force multipliers that come into effect. A JF17 can take on the M2K-9 head on if it is backed by PAF's EW assets and our Erieyes, even on its own the JF17 is not bad and the PAF pilot i talked to termed it a better aircraft than F16A. Its Avionics, ECM and Radar are better than those of our F16's, PAF wouldnt have invested this much money in this project if they were not getting the most bang for the buck. As far as the weapons are concerned, PAF is quite clear on what weapons it will be using and they are very potent. I dont think it would be appropriate for me to disclose on the forum what weapons we will be using on the JF17's, i will let other senior members disclose this.
 

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