U S strikes Abu Lais al Libi Killed

[roadrunner]

"However, the Pakistani government has done its part in chasing the militants (Al Q militants) from the western frontier."

Yes and no. The GoP is actively employing the P.A. in the west. A.Q.'s presence hasn't been eliminated though. Not by far. CJTF-82 has confirmed strong contingents of Uzbeks attempting to cross. There is a lot of work to be done. Hopefully, however the elections in Pakistan go, new leaders will realize that they need more than a military presence in these regions to remove al Qaeda.

Al Q exist everywhere in the world. They won't be eradicated from Pakistan completely.

Pakistan's northwest and far west (Baluchistan) require a transformation of their roles. Not convenient buffers or useful tools but as actual citizens. Services and laws as elsewhere throughout your country. Nothing more or less and possessing no more or less from their gov't than any citizen of Pakistan should expect.

You won't ever get the type of laws you want in FATA.

"Not necessarily the Taliban. But the Pashtuns of Afghanistan will be used as this "sword arm". They can come in any ideology. It just so happens the Jihadi groups are able to bring some security there."

Yeah. See, um...that's a REAL problem. Not the afghan pashtuns but you, Road Runner. Your ambitions will keep America firmly planted in Afghanistan for some time and foster the further deterioration of U.S.-Pakistani relations. Cynical and arrogant, it's time for these attempts to manipulate Afghan sovereignty to suit your nation's whims to stop.

LOL! Ignoramus. Welcome to the world of politics! Every country in history and currently tries to manipulate a neightbour for their own advantage. You honestly think the US is there in Afghanistan to do some charity work for the Afghan people?! They're there FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS! DUH.

Realpolitik suggests that this skewed logic lies in the quest for "strategic depth". Your borders stop around the Durand Line. Pakistan makes this clear with it's ambition to fence the border. Clearly, that means that the OTHER side of that border is not Pakistan. Simple enough, really.

Pakistan is interested in a compliant government in Afghanistan, just as the Americans are interested in a compliant government in Afghanistan, just as the Iranians are interested in a compliant government in Afghanistan, and finally JUST AS THE INDIANS ARE TOO! Everybody has an interest. Time to wake up kid!

Realpolitik also suggests that INDIA is not a sufficient rationale to justify Pakistan's quest for such "strategic depth". War is quite unlikely. If so, use of your strategic depth would not come to play. Key Pakistani weapon systems will not be dispersed into the Afghani hinterlands prior to hostilities ensuing. Pakistani forces won't retreat into Afghanistan to "continue the fight". The GoP won't relocate to Kandahar as a "gov't in exile".

As I've always said, strategic depth is secondary. The most important interest Pakistan has in Afghanistan is stability, and non hostility. Only the Pashtun movements are able to make a stable Afghanistan. Why, you might ask. Because the Pashtuns are the majority ethnic group of Afghanistan, and form the better group of fighters. When th Northern Alliance are propped up, history has shown that Afghanistan becomes unstable, because the Pashtuns are stronger and try to retake the country. When the Pashtuns are in charge, Afghanistan becomes stable because the Pashtuns are able to bring peace and security to the whole of the country (by virtue of being stronger).

"Strategic depth" is a useful phrase to ignore the reality and conjure up anti Pakistan theories of interference. The reality is that a stable Afghanistan, without interference from anyone is in Pakistan's interests. This will only come about through a Pashtun dominated government.

Afghanistan is a sovereign nation and should be respected as such. It's elections were legitimate and it's gov't needs a ton of help. It's fraught with corruption and inefficiencies for a variety of reasons. You know that. Working to KEEP Afghanistan in this condition such that you can exploit it's vulnerabilities to your convenience is really wrong.

The elections in Afghanistan were a farce. Everyone who competed in those elections were either the Northern Alliance or lackeys of the Northern Alliance.

"In Kabul, one resident told the British-based Independent: “There were a lot of violations. In Wardak, one person voted 100 times. If they declare Karzai a winner, it will be a puppet government.”

"According to a briefing paper by the US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) last month, multiple voter registration was widespread. UN and Afghan officials told HRW that the overall number of registered voters was “vastly inflated”. Of the 10.5 million on the electoral roll, estimates put the actual number of voters as low as 5 to 7 million. The ink was meant as a guarantee that those with multiple registration cards would be unable to use them."

Afghanistan election descends into farce

Keep telling yourself Afghanistan has democracy. You'll believe it if you repeat it enough, I feel.

I hope that you reconsider your position on this matter, Road Runner. I really do.

I'm happy to reconsider all positions. If you stop being such a transparent, ignorant, biased, warhawk-centric buffoon, and quote some genuinely solid facts instead of "we've brought you Afghans democracy", then I might very well do.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Brigadier,

In what way?

That the lament over Karzai not representing the majority is not truly a correct representation of the fact in its holity!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Dude, you failed to understand the logic.

A SMALL part of the Pakistani population hates the US. This is undeniable. It is these people that will side with Al Q, not because they support Al Q's ideology, but because they hate to see the US on what they consider to be their home ground. Is it clear now?

If there was logic, I would surely have understood.

Make up your mind about the numbers in Pakistan who hate the US. You can't keep changing stance to suit your convenience.

It is simple, you either hate or you don't.

Who says the US is in your homeground? The CIA and the others are there at your govt's invitation.

The US will have to quit Afghanistan eventually. It's not possible to keep troops there.

The world will also end.....eventually.

Strategic depth isn't so important. Nobody is going to come in from the Western border. It's more important to have a stable Afghanistan for trade and oil pipelines (and for a stable Pakistan).

It again indicates that you know a sausage about strategy.

Without external threats and stability not being there or not being able to cater for means nothing by having the goodies that you are talking about.

Keep hiding behind S-2. You make an excellent commander

I am not hiding behind S -2. It is just that he not only talks with logic (BTW,we have serious differences), he also produces damn good links that are educative. Try to appreciate talent and notbe burnt with hate. I also find Neo, Agnostic and Mastan a pleasure to exchange notes with. Does that mean I am hiding behind them? I have quoted them too! I appreciate brains and not fairy tale spinners! Now, where do you stand? Brains or fairy tales?

The origins of the Taliban are well explained in this book

Read more, son.

Wind.

You are indeed a great expert on flatulence! No one can match you!

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Salim,

And you think since majority hates USA policies so this mean they love al-qaida? Forgot about alqaida, there are two Islamic parties in Pakistan who won in NWFP last time elections and that's to first time in Pakistani history after American invasion of Afghanistan. These parties hardly support alqaida but hates USA and want to force sharia law in Pakistan which they can't even do in their own province. Propaganda won them last election but now i don't think they will be able to win again. Hard fact is unlike India where religious party BJP won the gov election on basis of hatred for Muslims, in Pakistan a religious party never won.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Salim,

And you think since majority hates USA policies so this mean they love al-qaida? Forgot about alqaida, there are two Islamic parties in Pakistan who won in NWFP last time elections and that's to first time in Pakistani history after American invasion of Afghanistan. These parties hardly support alqaida but hates USA and want to force sharia law in Pakistan which they can't even do in their own province. Propaganda won them last election but now i don't think they will be able to win again. Hard fact is unlike India where religious party BJP won the gov election on basis of hatred for Muslims, in Pakistan a religious party never won.

Let us cut out the charade.

The BJP won because of Moslem hatred and Pakistan is a country that is ever so wonderful a democracy with secular principles guiding its destiny! Great logic and a great attempt at tomfoolery!

Let's not pull wool.

You and RR really know how to delude yourselves and feel you are fooling the others.

Friend, spare a thought for democracy and spare another for the Ahmediyas, who claim to be Moslem! You cant even accept the ones who follow the same scriptures and believe in the same God. And neither do you treat the Shias (who have hardly any difference) as equal. And inspite of these rather glaring inequalities and doing down people who believe in the same religion and the same God, you want to ride a high horse! Give us a break.

So, may we cut fooling each other and have a look at merely the situation as it is on the ground?

What has AQ to do with the two Moslem parties winning in the NWFP?

How does love or hate with the AQ has anything to do with the elections?

Please refrain from childish points and get down to some serious discussion.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Let us cut out the charade.

The BJP won because of Moslem hatred and Pakistan is a country that is ever so wonderful a democracy with secular principles guiding its destiny! Great logic and a great attempt at tomfoolery!

Let's not pull wool.

You and RR really know how to delude yourselves and feel you are fooling the others.

Friend, spare a thought for democracy and spare another for the Ahmediyas, who claim to be Moslem! You cant even accept the ones who follow the same scriptures and believe in the same God. And neither do you treat the Shias (who have hardly any difference) as equal. And inspite of these rather glaring inequalities and doing down people who believe in the same religion and the same God, you want to ride a high horse! Give us a break.

So, may we cut fooling each other and have a look at merely the situation as it is on the ground?

What has AQ to do with the two Moslem parties winning in the NWFP?

How does love or hate with the AQ has anything to do with the elections?

Please refrain from childish points and get down to some serious discussion.

WTF was that? I am shia by the way or at least my family is! And only brainwashed folks like you thinks that BJP didn't win because of hatred for Muslims. Now you will even deny that BJP is religious party? After demolishing babri masjid BJP won hearts of majority of Hindus like you and the result of winning the elections was genocide in Gujrat.

Since you was as always is talking (writing) that vast majority of Pakistanis support alqaida. Now where are the facts? Islamic parties winning for the first time in history in one province who hardly represent majority in Pakistan mean vast majority of Pakistanis don't support alqaida. Even these Islamic parties will never dare do support alqaida.

 

[S-2]

From the Internat'l Crisis Group-

Afghanistan: From Presidental to Parliamentary Elections

From the Joint Electoral Management Body-

Wolesi Jirga and Provincial Council Elections Afghanistan 2005

Those elections went remarkably well, in fact. You can check the results. Pashtuns in large numbers voted for a Pashtun. Go figure.

"The reality is that a stable Afghanistan, without interference from anyone is in Pakistan's interests..."

An amazing agreement. That's exactly what the U.N. and NATO are trying to achieve. Outstanding. Now we're getting somewhere!

"...This will only come about through a Pashtun dominated government."

Oh.

Fooled again.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi guys,

I am sorry that I got taken with my guard down---the major being an S-2---if such is the case is a big asset we have on this board. The background and analysis that is being put forward by S-2 is always worth looking into.

 

[S-2]

"...if such is the case..."

I don't understand. Could you explain, please?

 

[Neo]

Excuse my ignorance but are we capable of detecting the Preditor, specially when its only a mile away from a military base?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Excuse my ignorance but are we capable of detecting the Preditor, specially when its only a mile away from a military base?

I am more interested in its actual spying capabilities - and the argument S-2 made earlier about the strike not being able to take place without local intel. and Pakistani support. How high is the resolution of the images from the equipment on board? Are we talking about just knowing that a bunch of people entered or left a location (without ascertaining ID) - which would imply that either the US has developed extremely good intel resources in one of the most hostile parts of FATA, or the PA was actively assisting. In the latter case the argument about detection is moot - in the former, if the PA was not involved in helping create those intel assets, then a bit of a whammy for the GoP that the Americans have penetrated the "Heart of Darkness". It might have implications for other (non Taliban/AQ) areas.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I am more interested in its actual spying capabilities - and the argument S-2 made earlier about the strike not being able to take place without local intel. and Pakistani support. How high is the resolution of the images from the equipment on board? Are we talking about just knowing that a bunch of people entered or left a location (without ascertaining ID) - which would imply that either the US has developed extremely good intel resources in one of the most hostile parts of FATA, or the PA was actively assisting. In the latter case the argument about detection is moot - in the former, if the PA was not involved in helping create those intel assets, then a bit of a whammy for the GoP that the Americans have penetrated the "Heart of Darkness". It might have implications for other (non Taliban/AQ) areas.

Not without Pakistani Intel Agno ... No way!

 

[roadrunner]

From the Internat'l Crisis Group-

Afghanistan: From Presidental to Parliamentary Elections

From the Joint Electoral Management Body-

Wolesi Jirga and Provincial Council Elections Afghanistan 2005

Those elections went remarkably well, in fact. You can check the results. Pashtuns in large numbers voted for a Pashtun. Go figure.

You can believe the elections were not fraudulent. Most Afghanis in the South and East and centre of the country think otherwise. That is why they are fighting the government of Afghanistan. Ordinary people. The last elections in Afghanistan were a fraud in fact. The ink washed off and multiple voters from the Northern province voted for Karzai and his Tajik-filled government. Here is the proof from the election monitors themselves, OSCE -

International election monitors from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) conceded that the 15 opposition candidates' central accusation - that indelible ink used to mark voters' fingers and prevent them voting twice, had been faulty and washed off easily - was true.

But the head of the OSCE mission, Robert Barry, said: "The candidates' demand to nullify the election is unjustified and would not do service to the people of Afghanistan who came out, at great personal risk, to vote."
Protests against `ink-stained' Afghan election crumble | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET.com

"The reality is that a stable Afghanistan, without interference from anyone is in Pakistan's interests..."

An amazing agreement. That's exactly what the U.N. and NATO are trying to achieve. Outstanding. Now we're getting somewhere!

A stable government can only be created when it represents the people and does not sideline the majority of the population in favour of the minorities. This is the only thing that can bring stability.

"...This will only come about through a Pashtun dominated government."

Oh.

Fooled again.

Indeed, as I've mentioned before. It's a mistake not to include the Pashtuns in the government.

 

[S-2]

"It's a mistake not to include the Pashtuns in the government."

It's a bigger mistake to believe-

"This will only come about through a Pashtun dominated government."

58% of Afghanistan is something other than pashtu.

"include"/"dominate". Same-same in your mind?

Before calling somebody "ignoramus" and "buffoon", I'd encourage you to learn the qualitative differences of something simple like "include" and "dominate".

It'll go far to improve your otherwise lame discourse.

 

[roadrunner]

"It's a mistake not to include the Pashtuns in the government."

It's a bigger mistake to believe-

"This will only come about through a Pashtun dominated government."

58% of Afghanistan is something other than pashtu.

"include"/"dominate". Same-same in your mind?

Before calling somebody "ignoramus" and "buffoon", I'd encourage you to learn the qualitative differences of something simple like "include" and "dominate".

It'll go far to improve your otherwise lame discourse.

The word "ignoramus" sounds pretty accurate to describe someone that would fail to see what I meant by a "pashtun-dominated" government. This means that Pashtuns will dominate (in other words form the largest ethnic group) of the government. Not the Tajiks/puppet Pashtuns in at the moment. It has to be representative of the people. Then the violence will perhaps disappear.

Officially, the figures are 42% of Afghanistan is Pashtun, 27% is Tajik, the Uzbeks with lower figures etc. So, 42% of the central government should be Pashtun, 27% should be Tajik etc. This would be a Pashtun dominated/majority government, not like the current one though.