U.S. Military Taught Officers ‘Hiroshima’ Tactics for ‘Total War’ on Islam

[KS]

On the other hand.. Pakistanis hold little value for life when it comes to religion...whats losing 50 million when such a catastrophe has occurred.

Just a hypothetical scenario - Will you willingly sacrifice your children, just one, for all the religion in the world ?

 

[Developereo]

No it is not. The suspicion or wariness about Islam [I would not say hate, atleast till now] is mostly because of the resurgence of Islamic terrorism worldwide either on a I_cant_live_with_you notion based secessionist movements or the more general Islam vs rest jihadi mentality. It is because of the ultra-radical, intolerant form of Islam that is preached in neighbourhood madarsahs and young minds falling prey to it and writing away their lives for the greater glory of Allah and all the promised bounties. It is because of the continued attempt to blast subways, towers, night clubs, cities - sometimes succesfully unfortunately, based on a deviant religious agenda. These are some of the reasons that come to my mind immediately why there is a rise in Islamophobia around the world and why it was not there even some 3 decades ago.

The fanaticism and hatred exists in all groups. Examples have been shown elsewhere of Jewish, Christian and Hindu leaders indoctrinating their followers in similar manner of hatred.

Like I wrote, the only difference is that the other fanatics get their agenda implemented through established militaries and their followers wear military uniforms while carrying out their crusade. These fanatics wear expensive suits and promote their hatred carefully couched in analyses and policy papers. The rank-and-file fanatics do their killing in uniform and are, sometimes, dismissed as 'rogue elements'. Other times, they escape all punishment entirely.

I dont think it has become acceptable, atleast for now..but the risk of it becoming acceptable is very real if that oft proclaimed group called "moderate muslims" fail to raise their hands and take control of this religion that is fast becoming the private jagir of the radicals. Non-muslims judge Islam by what Muslims do and not what the Muslims claim Islam is. The faster the likes of you understand that and stop rationalizing those acts by Islamic radicals the better for all - specially for you.

The bigots will justify their hatred regardless of what Muslim do or don't do. This canard of holding the entire community responsible until everyone behaves is neither original nor subtle. It has been used throughout history to rationalize bigotry against various groups, as I wrote earlier.

Please read the earlier posts in this thread where the issue of generalization and stereotyping has been discussed.

Then why is it that it is only the Islamic extremists who always manage to gather hundreds of thousands of followers?

What I wrote above about others doing their crusade in uniform.

 

[KS]

The fanaticism and hatred exists in all groups. Examples have been shown elsewhere of Jewish, Christian and Hindu leaders indoctrinating their followers in similar manner of hatred.

You have not shown anything. Just the wild assumption that the sovereign armies of non_muslim countries are the terrorist entities because of the absence/minimal presence of the non-state actors actively and physically targeting Muslims in their respective religions. In essence you have already decided you need to do a equal-equal and if not the armies then you will go the police force of the respective countries and if not the police then the doctors.

BTW there might be extremist groups in all religions - but none of them hold sway over the majority moderate mass the way radicals in Islam do. In other words, in no religion is the majority moderate group so powerless, voiceless,toothless & static as Islam. There are a variety of reasons for that phenomenon.

The bigots will justify their hatred regardless of what Muslim do or don't do. .

That [lame] excuse does not cut ice anymore. You can't say that unless the moderate Muslim first controls the radicals in his religion or even attempts to do so. This inaction on the part of the moderate Muslims on the premise "even if we control the extremists the west will hate us..so let's not control our extremist brothers" is highly self-serving and dis-ingenous to say the least.

 

[Developereo]

You have not shown anything. Just the wild assumption that the sovereign armies of non_muslim countries are the terrorist entities because of the absence/minimal presence of the non-state actors actively and physically targeting Muslims in their respective religions. In essence you have already decided you need to do a equal-equal and if not the armies then you will go the police force of the respective countries and if not the police then the doctors.

Maybe not in this thread -- I don't remember. But there have been other threads where US, Israeli and other soldiers have been exposed proclaiming their motivation for joining the military. Any number of policy experts and military strategists have well-publicized, firm ideological beliefs guiding their proposals.

Again, this is not a 'Muslim' claim; it is well accepted that policy strategists push particular agendas.

BTW there might be extremist groups in all religions - but none of them hold sway over the majority moderate mass the way radicals in Islam do. In other words, in no religion is the majority moderate group so powerless, voiceless,toothless & static as Islam. There are a variety of reasons for that phenomenon.

On the contrary, the Zionist war drums have been used most effectively to launch a number of wars, and more on the way. The only difference is that these extremists are media-savvy and their agenda suits you, so you don't see them as extremists.

That [lame] excuse does not cut ice anymore. You can't say that unless the moderate Muslim first controls the radicals in his religion or even attempts to do so. This inaction on the part of the moderate Muslims on the premise "even if we control the extremists the west will hate us..so let's not control our extremist brothers" is highly self-serving and dis-ingenous to say the least.

No, as I wrote, this canard is a standard play of bigots throughout history. Its use against Muslims is only the latest incarnation. I suggest you learn some history about the stereotyping and treatment of various minority groups throughout history.

Been there, done that.

 

[Vinod2070]

The mere threat of an international coalition-led war will result in a total collapse of pakistan's government and the state. Same goes for all Middle east government including SA which governs Mecca/Medina. No need to go further than that.

I am inclined to think Russia and China would aid US because it would be a matter of international security.

Perhaps such an action would be possible after a major nuke-based terrorist attack which simultaneously targets many nations.

The threshold will be much lower than that.

Just one mass casualty terrorist attack on USA (or a friendly Western country) could result in this scenario.

There have been enough indications that this (to deter the AQ against another mass casualty attack with WMDs, with the Mecca Madina scenario) has been the official US policy since 2001 and AQ was explicitly warned about this.

In fact, probably Iraq was was likely to convince AQ about the seriousness of the threat and not really about WMDs as we all know.

 

[KS]

Maybe not in this thread -- I don't remember. But there have been other threads where US, Israeli and other soldiers have been exposed proclaiming their motivation for joining the military. Any number of policy experts and military strategists have well-publicized, firm ideological beliefs guiding their proposals.

Again, this is not a 'Muslim' claim; it is well accepted that policy strategists push particular agendas.

Highly disingenuous statement. Islamic extremists doing what they do as a 'policy' and aberrant soldiers succumbing to pressures of war are two different scenarios. Not that it is excusable in the latter case, they should be held accountable according to the law of land, but exceptions dont become rule.

Taking a crude example, American military generals don't promise the marines 72 hoors for every Muslim killed.

The motive American soldiers or Israeli soldiers join their military can at best be compared to the motive why Muslim soldiers join their respective armies - take for example PA Army - Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi sabillilah. For the uninformed canadian this may look like the recruiting phrase of some jihadi organization. So can they go about saying that soldiers in PA are uniformed jihadis ? Is this not what your logic entails ?

On the contrary, the Zionist war drums have been used most effectively to launch a number of wars, and more on the way. The only difference is that these extremists are media-savvy and their agenda suits you, so you don't see them as extremists.

Oh no..not the Zionist boogeyman.

The [bitter] truth is in no religion is the majority moderate group so powerless, voiceless,toothless & static as in Islam. There is no use in chiding me for saying that.

No, as I wrote, this canard is a standard play of bigots throughout history. Its use against Muslims is only the latest incarnation.

Rather than suggesting me to do something, which is nothing but a polished way of deflecting, just understand that moderate Muslims have not . till now, put up their hand to be counted. So the basic premise of saying even if moderate muslims...does not arise in the first place.

The first step in solving any problem lies in accepting there is a problem. So far you [Muslims] have not even crossed the first phase. All the best for that.

 

[Developereo]

Highly disingenuous statement. Islamic extremists doing what they do as a 'policy' and aberrant soldiers succumbing to pressures of war are two different scenarios. Not that it is excusable in the latter case, they should be held accountable according to the law of land, but exceptions dont become rule.

Perhaps you didn't bother reading. The policy analyses and strategy papers advocating slaughter of Muslims are not done by 'aberrant' soldiers. They are by mainstream hate mongers who go under the more respectable labels of 'analysts' and 'strategists'.

Taking a crude example, American military generals don't promise the marines 72 hoors for every Muslim killed.

The motive American soldiers or Israeli soldiers join their military can at best be compared to the motive why Muslim soldiers join their respective armies - take for example PA Army - Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi sabillilah. For the uninformed canadian this may look like the recruiting phrase of some jihadi organization. So can they go about saying that soldiers in PA are uniformed jihadis ? Is this not what your logic entails ?

Then you really don't know what you are talking about.

Videos were posted of US soldiers and their chaplain discussing why their mission is Jesus' mission. Soldiers driving around Afghanistan with the banner 'Jesus killed Mohammed'. There are similar accounts of Israeli soldiers who believe they are doing God's work.

Oh no..not the Zionist boogeyman.

Again, I will tell you to educate yourself about the power of the Zionist lobby in the West, and you will refuse to face the truth. These expositions are not done by (gasp!) Muslims, but Jewish, Christian and atheist Westerners.

Rather than suggesting me to do something

That's OK. I didn't expect you to dare challenge your preconceptions anyway.

 

[KS]

Perhaps you didn't bother reading. The policy analyses and strategy papers advocating slaughter of Muslims are not done by 'aberrant' soldiers. They are by mainstream hate mongers who go under the more respectable labels of 'analysts' and 'strategists'.

Pardon me for not bothering to read -- you don't post anything new anyway. Just the same old drivel which by now I could say without looking into the post.

Coming the point, the role of these "analysts" and "strategists" is overstated as is anyone who role is just theorizing...still for arguments sake, all these "analysts" and "strategists" have failed to create a respectable terrorist group, one that can rival the size and extent of the middle level jihadist groups. These "analysts" and "strategists" have failed to make a group of US civvies drive a 747 into the Burj Dubai. The "analysts" and "strategists" have failed to convince some 20-somethings to martyr themselves for the greater glory of Jesus in a subway tube or night club etc.

All that remains are conjectures, lame equal-equals and defense of the indefensible .

Do I have to read it everytime ?

Videos were posted of US soldiers and their chaplain discussing why their mission is Jesus' mission. Soldiers driving around Afghanistan with the banner 'Jesus killed Mohammed'. There are similar accounts of Israeli soldiers who believe they are doing God's work.

Don't tell me that a significant portion of Pakistan Army soldiers or Saudi arabian soldiers don't believe that they are in the service of Islam - in their armies. Don't tell me that each unit in PA doesn't have its Maulvis. Indian Army does. Religion has always been a powerful motivating force for soldiers and every nation -except perhaps Communist nations- makes use of it.

Re, the actions of soldiers describes above - exceptions as already mentioned.

Again, I will tell you to educate yourself about the power of the Zionist lobby in the West, and you will refuse to face the truth. These expositions are not done by (gasp!) Muslims, but Jewish, Christian and atheist Westerners.

I refuse to face your [rather silly] opinion. It is by no means the truth.

That's OK. I didn't expect you to dare challenge your preconceptions anyway.

Lets come back to the original point - that unless the moderate muslims put up their hands and will to be counted, there is no sense in chiding the non-muslims for exhibiting a wariness about Islam. It will be there and the blame goes squarely onto the radicals for taking the initiative and the moderates for failing to stem the tide.

For solving a problem, accepting that the problem exists if of utmost importance. I wish you could see it.For your sake, for Islam's sake.

 

[Vinod2070]

I divide the 'West' into three groups of people.

-- radical fanatics (in three piece suits) who are no better than the Islamist fanatics.

-- mainstream ordinary people who are basically fair minded, despite being brainwashed by the fanatics above.

-- the dregs of society who are losers in real life and who try to bolster their self-esteem by beating their chests behind Western achievements (which they themselves had little to do with).

The last bit is interesting.

So Westerner "losers" should not be taking pride in the Western achievements.

But its OK for Muslims (whose ancestors were converted much much later) anywhere to be taking pride in the "achievements" of Arabs or Moors?

 

[KS]

So Westerner "losers" should not be taking pride in the Western achievements.

But its OK for Muslims (whose ancestors were converted much much later) anywhere to be taking pride in the "achievements" of Arabs or Moors?

Who said anything about having a uniform yard stick ?

 

[Vinod2070]

Point is that attack on holy cities will open the Pandora box. You being an Indian will not understand this.

Attacking holy cities will be 'crossing the red line' of tolerance of all Muslims worldwide. Their is no justification for this kind of action.

We won't?

Some of our holiest sites (and they were of your ancestors' as well) have been destroyed by your Islamic heroes.

The "red line" is nothing but a geedad bhabhki.

Mongols destroyed thousands of mosques, destroyed whole Muslim cities, killed Muslims in many millions and small garrisons of them continued ruling over millions of Muslims.

They even considered destorying Mecca once but didn't execute.

So, while this is not something that any of us wants, let's not exaggerate.

 

[Zabaniyah]

^Mongols weren't Muslims.

 

[Vinod2070]

^Mongols weren't Muslims.

Exactly! They weren't.

By that time, Israel and India will be done with.

Even if they had nothing to do with the war!

Leaving aside the fact that you have no capability to do this (and will be toast if you tried), this is exactly what so many of you are fuming against on this thread!

What is acceptable and respectable for you, is not for your adversaries?

Overseas muslims will come in to the picture. Countries such as UK and India are specially vulnerable due to sizable populace of muslims in these countries. And quarantine cannot be imposed by a single aggressor on such a grand scale unless the rest of the world cooperates.

No! The vast majority of "overseas Muslims" will be busy doing what survival instincts will make them do.

Get out of harm's way. And do "what it takes" to be away from harm's way.

You are frankly assuming too much. And too wrong.

dont be too smug. a good part of our eastern neighbourhood would already be made into a radioactive glass (as you put it) before we done for.

you have very cleverly narrowed down the discussion to Pakistan only. I admire your style , no surprise there when you have two Indian flags. Pakistan's destruction by America will be an Indian dream but that dream will be in a radiological wasteland of the whole subcontinent. we will take you down with us.

yea we cant hit the bully but we will break the nose and teeth of the smirking India.

Always love this great thought. Sadly for you...

 

[KS]

No! The vast majority of "overseas Muslims" will be busy doing what survival instincts will make them do.

Get out of harm's way. And do "what it takes" to be away from harm's way.

Isn't it too religiously sanctioned...something by the name of Taqiyya ?

Looks like all contingencies are covered.

 

[Vinod2070]

The eyes read, but the mind sees what it wants to.

S-19 said nothing of the sort. Neither are any of us.

You yourself have spelled out the limit of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

Namely, deterrence against India.

Fullstop.

Please leave the pre-emptive retaliatory bombing of Israel to the domain it belongs to.

Juvenile chest thumping.

A threat without the means lacks credibility.

It also makes others acutely aware of your own vulnerability.

It still remains interesting how many of them rage against India (Hindus) and Israel (Jews) and want to do to them exactly what they are so much railing against.

Only they have no capability.

They are lucky their adversaries are so much saner than them.

Isn't it too religiously sanctioned...something by the name of Taqiyya ?

Looks like all contingencies are covered.

Some of them will try that.

Most will go the whole hog. Survival instincts made their ancestors do something earlier.

The same survival instincts will make them do the opposite now.