U S Against Pakistan & China---This War Is A Reality Now

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

The saudis would have paid a hefty sum if pakistan had agreed to send force in yemen and so would have the emiratis and qataris and bahrain--etc etc etc---.
Attacks on civilians in france and in san bernardino has changed the war scenario. Those who were sitting back and keeping quite have stood up and are pointing fingers---.
This is election year coming---and the war drums are already sounding very loud---. The republicans will sell whatever to get back into the white house---they are desperate---they sound angry---and they have a further desire for blood.
And the way the U S reacts---it won't take it a moment to cartwheel into action against pakistan directly or indirectly.

The threshold of war is one major terrorist attack in india----and under these circumstance---pakistan is between a rock and a hard place.

Truthfully----I do not like the silence from india for the last two months----it has the knell of death written over it.

Then some very aggressive and provocative flying by the U S and australia over south china seas---trying to pull china into acting stupid----.

All this unpredictability points towards one thing---some kind of a clash. The U S has the next 5 years to contain china---it would be extremely difficult after that and next to impossible after 10 years..

1) Joining the Yemen war: Hefty sum from Saudi's at the cost of what? Another armed militia and a civil war in Pakistan between Shiite's and Sunni's? And you can bet all you've got, that India will be supporting Shiite's through Iran all the way to cut Pakistan off. And you would never be able to point fingers because this was would be taking place WELL inside Pakistani cities, between Shiite and Sunni Pakistanis. Consider the outcome of it before just thinking about $$$$.
A country getting divided into pieces having a ton of money, is papers in a locker room. Once the divide is done, the paper will become $$$$ for its respective government, be it in the Shiite Pakistan, Pashtunistan or whatever the new names might come out.

2) What's the purpose of the entire Zarb-Azb when you want to go back to fighting yet another Shiite vs. Sunni militia, on both ends for the next 15 years? A messy, 1980's Beirut may sound relevant 5 years from now if that actually happened!!

3) India is too eager to join the CPEC and get to Afghanistan through the road. Their industrialists are pressurizing Modi and he'll do whatever for the opportunity. You need to learn your neighbor before dealing with them. They are smart people and they seek opportunity. The cost of getting to Afghanistan and beat the Chinese influence is much better than fighting Pakistan in a way. In their mind, they can defeat Pakistan (conventionally) whenever they want to. They want to connect with Afghanistan and on the other hand with the CPEC, reap benefits both ways that way. Slowly, they'll invest crazy around the CPEC area inside and outside of Pakistan, and will try to cause issues for the Chinese. I think Modi's senior advisers have already mentioned it.

4) The US is busy with ISIL, I think you should expect boots on the ground if Trump wins. I don't think they'll go as far as to attack Pakistan as their isn't a need for it, not the US considers Pakistan a terrorist country. We all know Pakistan has issues they are trying to fix. In fact, I'd think that the US would want to use Pakistan as a partner and to make sure that ISIS doesn't take roots in Pakistan, Afghanistan and India. I think that can ONLY happen if the country is economically stronger, tolerant and peaceful, which its inching towards. So I think the conspiracy theories should stop.

5) The US and the Chinese are in a whole different league, the SCS is a heavily contested area, with the Chinese building islands that never existed before and claiming their land that never belong to them. The US has allies around with relationships going back to 1945!! So its natural for the world's top military to make sure the Chinese know we are watching and we will support our allies if the Chinese decided to go aggressive. These spratley and other SCS islands aren't being build for honey moon resorts, or to sell beach coconuts. They are building as military bases and the international laws allow the US to monitor and track all activity, and provide defense to our allies if need be....

Any military strenght against USA is irrelevant. The only sure shot insurance against that was through political clout and support of GCC after joining Yemen war

But only if our leadership didn't sell itself cheap to Saudis. Knowing our helplessly pathetic negotiation skills we might have been made to live with some leftovers instead of a feast

Interesting logic.....so "who" avoided you to have the "feast"???? The "Civilian Leaders" of course? But wait, don't you people very proudly tell on every other post that the foreign countries related decisions are made by the Pak military as NS and his buddies are useless ?? But here, you are saying the opposite that NS made this decision without military's backing and you lost your feast?

So when there is a good decision made, its ALWAYS the military of course, who else would have the brain to run Pakistan for 50+ years with so much growth and global influence?? But....if there is a bad decision or something that doesn't fit the need, you conveniently blame the Civilians? How convenient? Why don't you entertain us who really makes the calls on decisions impacting the foreign policy? Is it the military or is it NS? You can't just make up stuff and shift blame or success as you see convenient!!

 

[Fracker]

Pakistan first time in the history is doing right decisions.

Yemen, was perfect example. Than same when they joined Islamic forces yet announced strategy rule to not to go against Syria or Iran.

Pakistan wants Islamic nations to strength in same time avoiding any conflict between sects in Pakistan.

Iran & KSA should respect Pakistan even more since that's the way ahead. And learn from Pakistan.

USA was always against us. But didn't wanted us to join China or Russia alliance which is why they kept us alley and same time threaten us to throw to stone age. So we should make us and China more strong in Arabian sea to counter any threat from USA.

As far as India concern, they don't have balls to attack us face to face. They will only use proxies like LeI, BLA and TTP. So we have to fense /mine Afghan boarder. And tell Afghanistan to behave otherwise sanctions will be imposed on them and their 75% of needs will be stopped which are coming from India and Pakistan.

Overall Pakistan have to improve nations l importance (in people minds) and promote values of Pakistan. I.e. unity, faith and discipline.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Hi,

A war against pakistan and china is a reality at this moment for the U S----. The chance that the U S has now to neutralize these two countries at this time---may not be available after the next 5 to 10 years----.

This would also mean to drop pakistan totally as an ally and start up with a full time engagement with India to be the fulcrum of military action against these two nations.

Gwadar port and a naval base that the chinese may have full access to in the future, is a big challenge for the U S navy to keep its control in the arena. As it has full control over china in the south china seas---it can strangulate the chinese trade routes and oil shipments coming into china.

But Gwadar port brings out new issues and a change in power structure and power projection for the americans. As it links china thru a railhead----an oil pipeline that would reach into china----and the immediate presence of a chinese naval flotilla in the arena would bring many a headaches to the U S.

The U S navy that has controlled the area with impunity----since the second world war---will be facing fierce competition in power positioning.

So---just a few days ago---the U S fired the first round across the bough of pakistan---thru its secretary defense and the issue brought up was the short range pakistani nucs. Now---how and why did the short range pakistani nucs become a threat to the U S is unfathomable---but their concern of its usage in India Pakistan conflict seems to be un-acceptable to the americans at this stage or in the future----.

So---the thing what one needs to ask is---what are the americans trying to say---and what do the americans mean when they want pakistan to curtail the production of the short range nucs and also reduce their numbers or just totally demolish them.

Another issue is---why does the U S want pakistan to do that---why has the U S made this demand when it does not effect the U S in any way.

Does it want to pi-ss off pakistan---does it want pakistan to show any reaction---does it want to push pakistan into a corner---so that pakistan reacts and the U S finds a justification to strike.

This strike will basically neutralize pakistan's assets completely---which will put india in a much stronger position in the region---and as pakistan's legs get chopped off----that means that china's security is in question.

Now why do I think that the U S has a chance to succeed now than later----because pakistan military has failed to meet its obligation to strengthen the force in the given time.

The given time was between after 2001 till 2011---a 10 years time period---in the first part and then 2015 in the second part.

The bad decision of not getting the french aircraft between 2002---2005 is haunting them right now in the JF 17 program. With that handled---the JF17 program would have been in full swing and the upper and lower tier aircraft in place and military focused on other issues---. But tragically---the force is still bogged down even after 12 years.

The the second option that became available was earlier this year in the form of Yemen coalition---and we failed again at that as well.


Here is what Pakistan is----IT IS A NATION WITH THE BRAIN OF A LITTLE CHILD---BUT THE BODY OF A MONSTER----and the ability to rain destruction that a monster can---but as it is still a child brain---it does not comprehend the power of destruction that it has over other nations---and that has those other nations worried out of wits.

So---when this second God given opportunity came----pakistan floundered one more time out of habit----. It still was not able to comprehend what those monstrous dark clouds far out in the horizon were headed out towards----. It just could not understand that those clouds were headed its way.

The Yemen coalition was another chance for pakistan to have strengthened its military and economic might---. With a little adjustment here and a little adjustment there----moving of some fighter aircraft from one region to another---making mutual protection deal thru the resources of friendly GCC states and pakistan would have been in the driving seat one more time.

Enough funds to deploy troops---procure 5 to 8 sqdrns of frontline aircraft----navy frigates between 3500 tonnes to 8000 tonnes and create an additional force of 150 K troops---. Of those a 75 K troops deployed in yemen with at least 4 sqdrn's of aircraft and naval ship and subs---which would have given pakistan military a massive control and fire power in the region.

50---75000 troops spread around two to three bases in yemen with full military strength to keep peace in the arena and another 75---100000 troops based in saudi arabia and emirates---bahrain and qatar.

The naval flotilla would have seen another 4---6 F22 type ships---possibly 2 type 054 type frigate and possible 1 type 052 frigate. For the air force----we could see around 36 to 50 Rafale MS----4---6 division of tanks and other complimentary armor resource---the cargo fleet of the gulf countries would suffice to do the job and additons could be made.

Primary job of 50000 troops created in the first year and the total of 150000 in a 3 to 5 years time period---. Secondary jobs of over 300000 to 500000 would also had been created to cater to the needs of the troops---also money sent home in remittance would better the lifestyle of the families---who would be spending more on construction etc etc etc.

But---as pakistan has chosen to reject that offer---it is going to find itself on the brink of a dark and nasty hole of death---destruction---and mayhem.

The situation looks extremely grim for pakistan and china. The U S military has tried many a imes to provoke china in the south china seas---its partner australia alos has tried to provoke china in the recent days as the U S----and these provocations are not going to stop.

The ante will be upped slowly but surely---and at times rapidly for china to react. For pakistan---it will be put under immense pressure one more time---and this pressure that it is going to be put under---pakistan did not need to find itself in this place at this time.

For the folly of Yemen---pakistan may end up losing its source of power. @Khafee @Indus Falcon @Irfan Baloch @Viper0011.

China has another way out to the Indian Ocean and that is through Burma.What do you say about that?

I doubt we would have been awarded to that wish list you put here. Ya some sqdns and a few new entrants in the flotilla a few more toys and thats it. We have done the onslaught over yemen before as well? why couldnt we cash that well?

As far as i know our Navy had been patrolling off the Yemen coast to make sure no Iranian boats sneak in(corrrect me if im wrong)
What did we get there .The problem with us is not exploiting the right moment but failure to negotiate our interest, we are usually content over peanuts, whether its the Afghan war, the post 2001 Af-Pak doctrine .I mean just look at these trash used-HUmvees we got from US this year(many of which dont even start).

 

[Plotinium]

Pakistan first time in the history is doing right decisions.

Yemen, was perfect example. Than same when they joined Islamic forces yet announced strategy rule to not to go against Syria or Iran.

Pakistan wants Islamic nations to strength in same time avoiding any conflict between sects in Pakistan.

Iran & KSA should respect Pakistan even more since that's the way ahead. And learn from Pakistan.

USA was always against us. But didn't wanted us to join China or Russia alliance which is why they kept us alley and same time threaten us to throw to stone age. So we should make us and China more strong in Arabian sea to counter any threat from USA.

As far as India concern, they don't have balls to attack us face to face. They will only use proxies like LeI, BLA and TTP. So we have to fense /mine Afghan boarder. And tell Afghanistan to behave otherwise sanctions will be imposed on them and their 75% of needs will be stopped which are coming from India and Pakistan.

Overall Pakistan have to improve nations l importance (in people minds) and promote values of Pakistan. I.e. unity, faith and discipline.

I guess the sanctions will apply only, when US and Nato will leave afghanistan. Till then, we have to hear their bullshit comments that Abdullah and leaders like him spew against Pakistan.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Interesting logic.....so "who" avoided you to have the "feast"???? The "Civilian Leaders" of course? But wait, don't you people very proudly tell on every other post that the foreign countries related decisions are made by the Pak military as NS and his buddies are useless ?? But here, you are saying the opposite that NS made this decision without military's backing and you lost your feast?

no point scoring match buddy, if you been following our discussions then you will know that @MastanKhan and I agree that its a combined failure of our leadership and i dont qualify it and to make it obvious even write down civil and military.

to your question re Yemen .. I dont know who prevented us.for right or wrong reasons or threat perceptions .. military made a call but its irrelevant because even if we had said yes I have my doubts that we would have gained what we needed from it and would have only ended up with bringing coffins of our boys back.

 

[Viper0011.]

no point scoring match buddy, if you been following our discussions then you will know that @MastanKhan and I agree that its a combined failure of our leadership and i dont qualify it and to make it obvious even write down civil and military.

to your question re Yemen .. I dont know who prevented us.for right or wrong reasons or threat perceptions .. military made a call but its irrelevant because even if we had said yes I have my doubts that we would have gained what we needed from it and would have only ended up with bringing coffins of our boys back.

no point scoring match buddy, if you been following our discussions then you will know that @MastanKhan and I agree that its a combined failure of our leadership and i dont qualify it and to make it obvious even write down civil and military.

to your question re Yemen .. I dont know who prevented us.for right or wrong reasons or threat perceptions .. military made a call but its irrelevant because even if we had said yes I have my doubts that we would have gained what we needed from it and would have only ended up with bringing coffins of our boys back.

Like I said before, getting involved with Yemen on what price? An example is, all the "strategic depth" with Taliban created in late 90's, was it worth the price of the blood of 50,000 innocent Pakistanis? I don't think so!!

Similarly, getting a few billions and all, is it worth starting a Civil war inside Pakistan between Shiites and Sunni's? Totally backed up by Iran and India, and nothing you can do about? (remember Iraq, Syria, Hizbullah, etc, etc, where Iran has been involved in creating serious damage)? So for a few billion, you are ok with the fact that your country might remain a militant's warzone for another decade or two? Or the fact that an internal Civil war (Shiite's vs. Sunni's) might end up breaking your country. Baluchistan will become a part of Iran, and KPK, will go with a greater Afghanistan????

You guys really have to think the scenarios through before just looking for mere $$$$. A bad habit that was started by the powerful military dictators. If the country's economy grows the way it has been (and it'll only increase as the projects complete), the billions will come very easy without putting Pakistani lives at risk in Yemen. The first duty of ALL Pakistanis, if they want to see their country grow, is to end supporting religious nut jobs. And for the law enforcement and the military to take out ALL extremists involved with terrorism and killing innocent humans. If you guys can get this right, you'll grow your country and Pakistan has the potential to be in the top 15 economies, right below Australia or even competing with her. Now why wouldn't you want that???? Instead, getting into a conflict for $$$$ makes more sense? Which would be short lived, quick burst of money (remember Mushy and WOT) and then back to a struggling country with a new internal mess of Shiitte's vs' Sunni's fighting!!

I think Pakistan made the right choice. When you know you could make trillions long term peacefully, why risk an entire country of 200 million into a war that's not yours, but it will destroy you for sure (if you aren't looking at Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc)!! Just fyi, even the Chinese, the Americans and the Russians told you not to get into this mess as it would create yet another layer of religious terrorism between Shiite's and Sunni's, resulting in more terrorists recruitment for ISIL, which is the REAL global enemy right now.

I've yet to see a country who think she can grow her system and economy by starting internal war between their citizens. That would be destruction of a country, not growth!!

no point scoring match buddy, if you been following our discussions then you will know that @MastanKhan and I agree that its a combined failure of our leadership and i dont qualify it and to make it obvious even write down civil and military.

to your question re Yemen .. I dont know who prevented us.for right or wrong reasons or threat perceptions .. military made a call but its irrelevant because even if we had said yes I have my doubts that we would have gained what we needed from it and would have only ended up with bringing coffins of our boys back.

 

[sady]

American and Chinese confrontation and Pakistan dragged into it is a possibility but Yemen war is not a missed opportunity. I agree with all that it is Sunni-Shia Civil war if Pakistan takes sides. With apologies majority of people in one sect and one sub sect look towards Iran and Saudi Arab rather than Pakistan. We are not hired guns. Our soldiers sacrifice their blood not sell it for highest bidder. There is no greater good in selling blood of few of your soldiers, each soldier should be dear and sacred and not a part of economic deal. Professional Armies are not run this way, There are still so many venues that if we decide to improve upon can lift us in short period of time. The missed opportunity is not the Yemen war but taking to the noose these dogs in higher echelons who have run this country dry.
US of A however is also not living in fools paradise. China has already crossed that stage of containment. US of A would rather work with China and achieve a new equilibrium rather than try to choke it to an extent that would warrant open confrontation, poking and prodding however is likely to continue without any significant consequence.

 

[Dalit]

We can all agree that Pakistan has done smartly by staying out of the Shia Sunni conflict taking place in Yemen. Pakistani soil has also been used often by Iran, Saudi Arabia and the US to settle scores in their ethnic and religious bloodshed.

Let's not kid ourselves. The latest coalition against ISIS formed by the Saudis has the blessing of Uncle Sam. The coalition in Yemen is really no different. Pakistan cannot afford to become embroiled in such wars. These countries only require cannon fodder. Nothing more nothing less. Pakistan ought to know. Gladly, sanity is prevailing.