TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[DrSomnath999]

The 216 was developed specifically for countries like India and Oz in mind:


HDW 216 submarine’s development objective is to participate in the Australian Department of Defense under the SEA 1000 program activities at the target. According to the Australian government’s plan, as in 2025 the Navy purchased its 12 large conventional submarines,

well mate type 216 was not developed yet infact it is still in sketches ,no where did i find they have built a working prototype to demonstrate it's capabilty , infact we have to wait a year or two ,to see any development on this regard.Well india is in no
hurry yes Germans would negotiate about type 216 capabilty with IN for sure.It would be a wise decission to go for TYPE 216

 

[Yeti]

well mate type 216 was not developed yet infact it is still in sketches ,no where did i find they have built a working prototype to demonstrate it's capabilty , infact we have to wait a year or two ,to see any development on this regard.Well india is in no
hurry yes Germans would negotiate about type 216 capabilty with IN for sure.It would be a wise decission to go for TYPE 216

By the time we float the tender which was said to be done by the end of this year and start the tender process im sure we can see the Type 216 being further developed.

I love this submarine from the stats available it seems a perfect match for India as long as they can fit Brahmos into it we should go for it.

 

[sancho]

well bro i couldnt find anything that i missed on that thread

Sorry, ma fault! Linked the wrong post, but corrected it now:

Russian Navy to Drop Lada Class Subs

The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti...

Isnt the Type 214 the sub that the American Navy is closely studying to find out its weaknesses? It seems that this particular sub is quite effective and not even AMerica currently has any way of pinpointing it. Now that;s a weapon that India should be interested in.

I guess you mean the evaluations of USN and the Swedish Gotland class AIP subs, where they were able to remain undetected against a carrier battle group and even to sunk an SSN if I remember correctly.
The fact is, in AIP mode, such subs are so quiet that they are very hard to detect. The problem is, that mode has only limited speed and endurance, so sooner or later these conventional subs has to use batteries or diesel propulsions again. That makes them more suited for costal areas, while an SSN is more suited for long range blue water operations, be it in the hunter role or as escort for a carrier.

well mate type 216 was not developed yet infact it is still in sketches ,no where did i find they have built a working prototype to demonstrate it's capabilty

Which is not surprising, because as I told you in earlier debates, this version is only a study by the manufacturer proposed to export customers. Germany will not go for it, once because they don't have the need and secondly because they don't have the money for it at the moment. That means any further development of this study is dependent on the funds of a potential export customer!

 

[DrSomnath999]

By the time we float the tender which was said to be done by the end of this year and start the tender process im sure we can see the Type 216 being further developed.

I love this submarine from the stats available it seems a perfect match for India as long as they can fit Brahmos into it we should go for it.

ok lets hope for the best

 

[DrSomnath999]

Sorry, ma fault! Linked the wrong post, but corrected it now:

Russian Navy to Drop Lada Class Subs

The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti...

bro which date was it published , as recently i found & i had posted the link that russians are again going to test project 677 lada
class sub .Well IMO if russians want to win the deal they should induct project677 lada class to win the confidence of IN .

Which is not surprising, because as I told you in earlier debates, this version is only a study by the manufacturer proposed to export customers. Germany will not go for it, once because they don't have the need and secondly because they don't have the money for it at the moment. That means any further development of this study is dependent on the funds of a potential export customer!

well i have never denied that ,but as i said u earlier type 214 is also marred by problems & it doent have VLS system & also AMUR
1650 sub is offered to india & it doent have VLS capabilty like AMUR 950 .
SO if we dont want VLS system then we should go for scorpene sub instead but if we want VLS then go for type 216 sub
& also i found an amazing information from
a member in IDF Vstol JOckey who is a naval officer & has posted some important information related to Project 75 I

so things are getting interesting

 

[sancho]

bro which date was it published , as recently i found & i had posted the link that russians are again going to test project 677 lada
class sub .Well IMO if russians want to win the deal they should induct project677 lada class to win the confidence of IN .

Last month, check the corrected link to the post and you will find the source also.

SO if we dont want VLS system then we should go for scorpene sub instead but if we want VLS then go for type 216 sub

But that's the point, nobody said we want VLS, it was just offered by the Russians as an additional capability for some Amur class subs, while AIP is a requirement in the competition and even there they are behind. So the chances to win this deal are very low for them.

so things are getting interesting

If that would be interesting, IN would have taken the S1000 proposal, which was based on the Amur class, but with features of the U212, like non magneting hull, the German fuelcells, Italian Torpedos..., but In rejected it for size reasons, although that could have been dealt with a bigger Amur class.
There is no point in taking an Amur 1650, just to put some foreign parts in it, while such a key part like the AIP propulsion is far from beeing ready and when it's clear that we will be tricked into costincreasings again, because the sub is not propperly funded. The delays of the Akula sub and Gorshkov carrier should have made IN wiser!
I still say it will be either additional Scorpenes or new U214s, but can't decide at the moment which sub I would prefer.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Last month, check the corrected link to the post and you will find the source also.

well i had posted from naval today .com which was posted yesterday,God knows whats the truth

But that's the point, nobody said we want VLS, it was just offered by the Russians as an additional capability for some Amur class subs, while AIP is a requirement in the competition and even there they are behind. So the chances to win this deal are very low for them.

Hmm well lets see if IN wants VLS or not & also russian offering 1650 sub so no question of VLS from russian side now .

If that would be interesting, IN would have taken the S1000 proposal, which was based on the Amur class, but with features of the U212, like non magneting hull, the German fuelcells, Italian Torpedos..., but In rejected it for size reasons, although that could have been dealt with a bigger Amur class.
There is no point in taking an Amur 1650, just to put some foreign parts in it, while such a key part like the AIP propulsion is far from beeing ready and when it's clear that we will be tricked into costincreasings again, because the sub is not propperly funded. The delays of the Akula sub and Gorshkov carrier should have made IN wiser!
I still say it will be either additional Scorpenes or new U214s, but can't decide at the moment which sub I would prefer.

well may be Scorpenes for cost reason but not TYpe 214 man it's image is sullied by hellenic navy & also by korean navy .
well we should better wait for next round of debate on this as nothing looks clear now

 

[Agent_47]

bro which date was it published , as recently i found & i had posted the link that russians are again going to test project 677 lada
class sub .Well IMO if russians want to win the deal they should induct project677 lada class to win the confidence of IN .

Russian Navy to Drop Lada Class Submarine (Project 677) and modernize existing boats

The Russian Navy has decided against construction of Lada class submarines (Project 677) and will instead modernize its existing boats, Navy Commander-in-Chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

The design of the diesel-electric Lada class was completed at the end of the 1990s, but none of the planned boats have entered service, although the lead ship in the class, the Saint Petersburg, is undergoing trials with the Baltic Fleet, Vysotsky said.

“The Russian Navy does not need the Lada in its current form,” he said.
Vysotsky also said the first the non-nuclear Russian submarine with anaerobic propulsion may begin trials in 2014.
Currently all of Russia’s submarines are either nuclear or diesel-electric powered.

“It is entirely possible we will receive a test version of an air-independent power plant in the next few years. On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.

In addition, all of Russia’s active strategic submarines will be armed with Liner ballistic missiles, an advanced version of the Sineva missile, Vysotsky said.

“For now only those on combat patrol in the Pacific Ocean are equipped with them. But in future all our active strategic submarines - Delfin and Kalmar (Delta III and Delta IV) - will be armed with these missiles,” he said.

Construction of a new aircraft carrier will begin before 2020, Vysotsky said.

“Actual construction of the ship will begin before 2020 and will be completed after 2020. The design of the new carrier complex will be determined in the course of two years, by 2014,” he said.

The Admiral Kuznetsov is currently the Russian Navy’s only active aircraft carrier.

Vysotsky confirmed that the Bulava ballistic missile and the strategic nuclear submarine Yury Dolgoruky would enter service simultaneously this year.

Russian Navy to Drop Lada Class Submarine (Project 677) and modernize existing boats

 

[DrSomnath999]

“The Russian Navy does not need the Lada in its current form,” he said.
Vysotsky also said the first the non-nuclear Russian submarine with anaerobic propulsion may begin trials in 2014.
Currently all of Russia’s submarines are either nuclear or diesel-electric powered.

“It is entirely possible we will receive a test version of an air-independent power plant in the next few years. On boats of the Lada class, two of which are already laid down. Trials may begin in 2014. That is absolutely realistic,” he said.

well mate the article also says that they would test AIP powered lada class subs in 2014 well lets see if Russia inducts it or not .

 

[sancho]

well mate the article also says that they would test AIP powered lada class subs in 2014 well lets see if Russia inducts it or not .

Testing the tech and inducting the sub into operational service are 2 different things and since Amur is only in a very premature stage, while U214 and Scorpene are widely exported, they must come up with a really low price that IN would choose it, but I have some big doubts on that.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Testing the tech and inducting the sub into operational service are 2 different things and since Amur is only in a very premature stage, while U214 and Scorpene are widely exported, they must come up with a really low price that IN would choose it, but I have some big doubts on that.

well whether they induct it or not ,i wont go for AMUR sub ,instead in worst case scenario go for repeat of SCORPENE sub contract.
that looks economically & technologically more feasible

 

[sancho]

well whether they induct it or not ,i wont go for AMUR sub ,instead in worst case scenario go for repeat of SCORPENE sub contract.
that looks economically & technologically more feasible

It's for sure the easiest way and if we can get sub launched Scalp, they would get AIP and credible land attack capability. On the other hand, the German subs are really good and offer advanced systems, if there is a chance for the U216, it might be a great addition with production for export countries to be diverted to India as well. That's why I can't decide so far, both have their advantages.

 

[DrSomnath999]

It's for sure the easiest way and if we can get sub launched Scalp, they would get AIP and credible land attack capability. On the other hand, the German subs are really good and offer advanced systems, if there is a chance for the U216, it might be a great addition with production for export countries to be diverted to India as well. That's why I can't decide so far, both have their advantages.

well as i said earlier we have to wait until some news related to type 216 appears from HDW orelse scorpene is the most viable &
practical option .Also need to see can we install brahmos in our current scopene we are building right now

 

[sancho]

Also need to see can we install brahmos in our current scopene we are building right now

Not going to happen, since it would require re-designs to fit VLS and it's not possible again with subs that has AIP propulsion.

 

[Yeti]

Yep Scorpene won't be carrying Brahmos but i heard the last 3 we have the option of fitting in AIP to them which we should do.