Two Pak women gang raped in ‘honour-revenge’ attack

[Malang]

ISLAMABAD - Around a dozen men gang raped two women in Pakistan’s eastern province of Punjab to avenge a love marriage, the police said on Friday.

“The men abducted the women, one of them pregnant, and raped them in a nearby jungle for two days last month in the Rohallanwali area of Muzaffargarh district,” Mohammed Rafi, a police investigator, told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa in a telephone interview.

The gang was allegedly led by a man identified only as Latif, whose daughter had eloped with the nephew of the two rape victim.

“It seems the accused wanted to take revenge for the loss of their honor,” Rafi said.

The police have filed a case against the accused and are waiting for results of medical reports to determine whether the rape took place.

Romantic relations between unmarried couples are generally viewed as an offence in Pakistan, often resulting in humiliation or physical retribution by parents and relatives.

Muzaffargarh is the same district where Mukhtaran Mai suffered a gang rape of the similar nature in 2002. She was punished for a love affair between her brother and the rapists’ female relative.

After the incident she took her case to court where the culprits were charged and sentenced. She won the 2006 North-South Prize from the Council of Europe in acknowledgement for her courage.

Khaleej Times Online - Two Pak women gang raped in ‘honour-revenge’ attack

 

[mujahideen]

Their is no excuse for raping a women.

 

[Malang]

Honour killing is tribal custom fine.. but raping? how did that come about?

 

[Titanium]

I can sense a ping-pong now between Malang-Salim bleading hearts fellows.

Are you now make this a fun issue also??

 

[Malang]

I can sense a ping-pong now between Malang-Salim bleading hearts fellows.Are you now make this a fun issue also??

Fun issue?? Do you see me laughing? but I don't see you condemning it.. does it have your tacit approval?

PS:Nothing nice to post about good ol' India??

 

[Neo]

Honour killing is tribal custom fine.. but raping? how did that come about?

Tribal costum or not, its a medieval practice and wrong. We should adapt harsher punsihment and publish humiliation for these bashtards.

 

[Malang]

Tribal costum or not, its a medieval practice and wrong. We should adapt harsher punsihment and publish humiliation for these bashtards.

Neo, there are many tribal customs which are wrong and should be punished...
but is the population ready? and the govt? and the clergy?

Do you think such incidents are a cause of alarm for Pakistanis?

 

[Neo]

Neo, there are many tribal customs which are wrong and should be punished...

I agree. Though I have no problem allowing controvercial tribal customs within the tribal belt only, outside the tribal belt they have to respect the constitution.

1-but is the population ready? 2-and the govt? 3-and the clergy?

1-No, with 45% illetteracy rate we still have a long way to go.
2-Mush's government failed to achieve the objectives but political will is certainly there. With strong representation of women in the Parliament I remain optimistic that we'll see changes in near future.
2-Clergy will never be ready, another reason I support secular Pakistan.

Do you think such incidents are a cause of alarm for Pakistanis?

We're used to incidents like this, its nothing new. Only thing new is that there's much more media coverage on national and international level.

 

[roadrunner]

but is the population ready? and the govt? and the clergy?

Do you think such incidents are a cause of alarm for Pakistanis?

Malang, this is one of your more idiotic posts, don't you think my Icelandic friend?

First, let's put things into perspective. Such gang rapes happen all over the world, they will never be stopped. This news is no news, because everyone knows that gang rapes happen in every country of the world. Therefore, I can only guess as to why you post it....Is it to stir up some sort of reaction, or for you to think you would ridicule a nation based on their response (or lack of one)? If you wanted to post real "news", you could post overall statistics from some credible source to suggest Pak gang rapes were much higher than say India's or Zimbabwe, or somewhere. But no, instead you post something that happens in the world in every country daily, and in India at a rate 20 times greater than Pakistan (oh yes, and it can be proved!).

Second, you might not be aware that honour killings have been outlawed by the government in Pakistan, and are not a major source of crime in Pakistan according to the figures. Both men and women are targetted in honour killings, and the punishment for such is death according to the law. The population do not support honour killings, it's only the most backward areas of Pakistan that do, and people such as Lahori PaJee, who do a disservice to Pakistanis everywhere.

Finally, the psychology of the honour killing is no different to the psychology behind the crime of passion. Only difference is that one is more a singular phenomenon, the other is more a family phenomenon. You will never eradicate either from the communities, you may only convert honour killers into crimes of passion killers, but they would still exist in either form in a society.

 

[roadrunner]

2-Mush's government failed to achieve the objectives but political will is certainly there. With strong representation of women in the Parliament I remain optimistic that we'll see changes in near future.

It's been changed already Neo.

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Pakistan honour killing bill passed

The only part I disagree with is that the punishment for honour killings is higher when it's against women, than when it's against men, if this article is to be believed.

 

[Neo]

RR,

Are you referring to the Hudood law?

 

[Malang]

Malang, this is one of your more idiotic posts, don't you think my Icelandic friend?

I am not the self-deprecating type nor the self-aggrandising type ..
I am not sure about you my friend from Tokelau..

First, let's put things into perspective. Such gang rapes happen all over the world, they will never be stopped. This news is no news, because everyone knows that gang rapes happen in every country of the world.

Any news showing one's nation in a badlight will be a non-issue for some nationalistics..

Therefore, I can only guess as to why you post it....Is it to stir up some sort of reaction, or for you to think you would ridicule a nation based on their response (or lack of one)?

didn't you go surfing gay365.com to fish for info on India?? or was it just a pleasant surprise pun unintended? what was the intent then?

BTW yesterday a Christian shot his mother in Pakistan for allowing his sister to convert to Islam...

PS: Mukhtar Mai was raped in the same area hence I thought I should post this..

If you wanted to post real "news", you could post overall statistics from some credible source to suggest Pak gang rapes were much higher than say India's or Zimbabwe, or somewhere.

If I happen to come across such newsitem I shall post them... but then again it would lead to nothing more but mine is bigger than yours or I am fairer than you...

This is a forum .. such discussion is a part of it, Lahoripajee's viewpoint which you mention to be supportive of such acts is an eyeopener..

But no, instead you post something that happens in the world in every country daily, and in India at a rate 20 times greater than Pakistan (oh yes, and it can be proved!).

Is this thread about India or India versus Pak? and I can prove to you number of rapes in India are 30 times greater than Pak.. and number of poor dying of hunger a minimum ten times higher.. and that Indians are darker, shorter than Pakistanis.. and to boost your ego even more. unintelligent, immoral, etc. etc.. but what's the point? You already know all this..

Second, you might not be aware that honour killings have been outlawed by the government in Pakistan, and are not a major source of crime in Pakistan according to the figures. Both men and women are targetted in honour killings, and the punishment for such is death according to the law.

I figured it out when Musharraf blamed one of the rape victims for using rape allegation to get foreign asylum...

The population do not support honour killings, it's only the most backward areas of Pakistan that do, and people such as Lahori PaJee, who do a disservice to Pakistanis everywhere.

Lahore is a backward area? and Lahoris Backwards?(assuming Lahoripajee is a Lahori)
RR did it ever come to your brilliant mind sitting in Tokelau that a good portion of the Pakistani populace is unlike you and more like Lahori Paajee??

Finally, the psychology of the honour killing is no different to the psychology behind the crime of passion. Only difference is that one is more a singular phenomenon, the other is more a family phenomenon. You will never eradicate either from the communities, you may only convert honour killers into crimes of passion killers, but they would still exist in either form in a society.

Crime of Passion? A father and brother killing his daughter is a crime of passion because she married some one from out of the tribe or eloped??

It is called honour Killing because the person feels his position/honour in the society is affected adversely... It is reflective of the society.. The guy killing his daughter is doing it because of what people will think of him and his clan. I would rather blame the whole village then only the family which carries it out...


Many such crimes are committed by British Pakistanis in UK/Pak.. and it is not uncommon to see posters in Urdu, Hindi in UK police stations for women who are threatened by their families... are those British born, bred, educated Pakistanis backwards too like Lahoris ???

PS: I am still just a bit confused about the raping part? what's the need for raping before killing?

 

[roadrunner]

RR,

Are you referring to the Hudood law?

No, Hudood Law was changed in 2006 I think, the Honour Killings Bill was made in 2004 under the name of "Criminal Law (amendment) Bill". Two completely separate things.

Pakistan Times | Top Story: Senate of Pakistan passes Bill on Honor Killing

 

[roadrunner]

Any news showing one's nation in a badlight will be a non-issue for some nationalistics..

Post statistics from credible sources, instead of one or two events that happen in every country in the world, and I'll be the first to agree that that really is news!

I totally agree though, that gang rapes happen everywhere, including Pakistan. There you go, that kind of throws your nationalist theory off the Hindu Kush!

didn't you go surfing gay365.com to fish for info on India?? or was it just a pleasant surprise pun unintended? what was the intent then?

The difference between what I posted and what you posted, is that yours is just a weak attempt at some sort of image defamation of Pakistan (when you full know that gang rapes happen all over the world, even more so in India). What I posted from the gay site (and other sites of greater repute), was a statistical fact that really was news regarding the degree of homosexuality in India. You can, I hope see the difference between posting an instance of something we know happens all over the world, and posting a statistical fact from a credible source, like I did.

BTW yesterday a Christian shot his mother in Pakistan for allowing his sister to convert to Islam...

Right, but you never posted this, which makes me wonder even more your intention behind this thread.

PS: Mukhtar Mai was raped in the same area hence I thought I should post this..

I don't see the relevance of Mukhtar Mai's rape and this rape - you did not mention this in your initial post, and I doubt anyone knows the area where this Mukhtar Mai was raped. So, it's difficult to believe this.

If I happen to come across such newsitem I shall post them... but then again it would lead to nothing more but mine is bigger than yours or I am fairer than you...

Indeed it would, "aryan2007"

RR did it ever come to your brilliant mind sitting in Tokelau that a good portion of the Pakistani populace is unlike you and more like Lahori Paajee??

Well, I've seen the crime statistics. And I don't consider an honour killings crime rate of 1,000 / 160,000,000 or 0.0006% to be significant. Though this doesnt prove that the majority of Pakistanis do not think like Lahori PaJee, I have not seen any proof to suggest they do. Certainly no survey has been done, so we're both basing this on personal opinions. I would say though that there is some evidence to suggest that Pakistan is a secular, liberal society, therefore I do not think that the honour crime rate would be worse than many other countries in the world.

Crime of Passion? A father and brother killing his daughter is a crime of passion because she married some one from out of the tribe or eloping??

It's all down to egos. The union between a foreign tribe member and a tribal member might be considered to be an embarassment to the insecure ego of some tribal elders perhaps, just as an affair is considered a humiliation to the male ego on more of an individual level in a crime of passion.

Many such crimes are committed by British Pakistanis in UK/Pak.. and it is not uncommon to see posters in Urdu, Hindi in UK police stations for women who are threatened by their families... are those British born, bred, educated Pakistanis backwards too like Lahoris ???

It's not "many" as you like to suggest. It's isolated cases that you can perhaps count on the digits of one hand. And I would say that there are isolated cases of this happening in the British Indian community also, or more globally. One cannot make the argument though, that it is commonplace amongst British Pakistanis or British Indians. Again, this is skewed opinion not fact. An equivalent assertion to yours that is based in fact, would be to say that the British Indian Hindu community is anti-woman based on the fact that many hundreds of British Indian Hindu women go to India every year to terminate female foetuses. This would be using credible data, you are not posting such data.

 

[Malang]

Post statistics from credible sources, instead of one or two events that happen in every country in the world, and I'll be the first to agree that that really is news!

Read the forum title.. Current Events/Social issues.. If it is that insignificant then move to the thread bin..

I totally agree though, that gang rapes happen everywhere, including Pakistan. There you go, that kind of throws your nationalist theory off the Hindu Kush!

No one in the right frame of mind would deny that.. but ultra-nationalistics will never condemn it and at least not w/o bringing in their arch enemies in the picture.. There I Kargiled your assertion...

The difference between what I posted and what you posted, is that yours is just a weak attempt at some sort of image defamation of Pakistan (when you full know that gang rapes happen all over the world, even more so in India).

Defaming Pak in a Pak defence forum? I am not upto such foolish/doomed misadventures...

What I posted from the gay site (and other sites of greater repute), was a statistical fact that really was news regarding the degree of homosexuality in India. You can, I hope see the difference between posting an instance of something we know happens all over the world, and posting a statistical fact from a credible source, like I did.

I posted a Current Event/Social Issue which occured in Pak ... I was not trying to defame another country by taking help of pornographic sites, and conjuring up stats, doing research from sites of (greater) repute (than pornographic ones)

Too bad the current event/social issue happened to portray Pak in a badlight... Are such events and issues in Pak's arch-rival nation? Yes.. do they get posted? Yes.. Should I bother posting them? we have some very active Pak members I would be doing them a disservice..

Right, but you never posted this, which makes me wonder even more your intention behind this thread.

Simple to highlight a current event and not start a dispute (like the one that happened in the theological section) but I failed...

I don't see the relevance of Mukhtar Mai's rape and this rape - you did not mention this in your initial post, and I doubt anyone knows the area where this Mukhtar Mai was raped. So, it's difficult to believe this.

If you read the newsreport it mentions the area.. did you read it?
and I thought it was highly unlikely that such a rape would take place there again...

"Muzaffargarh is the same district where Mukhtaran Mai suffered a gang rape of the similar nature in 2002. She was punished for a love affair between her brother and the rapists’ female relative."

Indeed it would, "aryan2007"

I don't want another pissing contest .. Hindu tolerance of Christians is lesser than those of Muslims...

your views on Hinduism, Shiva worship, Genetics etc. are very colourful..

Well, I've seen the crime statistics. And I don't consider an honour killings crime rate of 1,000 / 160,000,000 or 0.0006% to be significant.Though this doesnt prove that the majority of Pakistanis do not think like Lahori PaJee, I have not seen any proof to suggest they do.

Yep I felt the same about the CPC supporter who was crying about 40000 dead pregnant Indian women..

I am not suggesting I am offering a viewpoint.. I am trying to convince you..

Sample stats..

Assuming 5000 acts of rape/killings/torture/violence/threatning per annum(under-reporting must be huge IMO but leaving that aside) due to honour .. over a period of 10 years(for sake of discussion) implies 50,000 killed/raped/beaten up/tortured.. and those involved are on an average say 5 that is 250,000 involved in killing.. Let us very conservatively assume that each tribal Pakistani family has 20 unique adult peers(who they think judge it on honour and have been unimplicated in previous crimes) therefore killings due to honour receives tacit approval by 5,000,000 Pakistanis over a decade..

so 5,250,000 Pakistanis over 10 years are supporting this crime...

Statistically 3% of Pakistanis support it...

Certainly no survey has been done, so we're both basing this on personal opinions.

I am merely offering a viewpoint.. you can shred the above stats to smithereens and I may come out with a better calculation but you get the idea? constructively speaking...

I would rather rely on Pakistani posters for what is happening in Pak than rely on media... that is why I asked Neo a few questions...

I would say though that there is some evidence to suggest that Pakistan is a secular, liberal society, therefore I do not think that the honour crime rate would be worse than many other countries in the world.

I always thought Pak was very liberal and secular... and I can't fathom why it should have an honour crime rate at all?

It's all down to egos. The union between a foreign tribe member and a tribal member might be considered to be an embarassment to the insecure ego of some tribal elders perhaps, just as an affair is considered a humiliation to the male ego on more of an individual level in a crime of passion.

She married a relative.. in any case.. I get the idea of the basic need..
there many reasons , the girl ran away with another man after marriage for example...

It's not "many" as you like to suggest. It's isolated cases that you can perhaps count on the digits of one hand. And I would say that there are isolated cases of this happening in the British Indian community also, or more globally. One cannot make the argument though, that it is commonplace amongst British Pakistanis or British Indians. Again, this is skewed opinion not fact. An equivalent assertion to yours that is based in fact, would be to say that the British Indian Hindu community is anti-woman based on the fact that many hundreds of British Indian Hindu women go to India every year to terminate female foetuses. This would be using credible data, you are not posting such data.

I am not denying such things don't happen I also mentioned Hindi in my post...

"it is not uncommon to see posters in Urdu, Hindi in UK police stations for women who are threatened by their families" Hindi as you know is spoken by Indians and not Pakistanis generally.. so I am not saying such things don't happen in India.. but right now we are talking about Pakistan..

PS: Honour killings acc. to some "claimed" Hindu scholars are almost given a religious, cultural and social approval(not constitutional)... so it would not be unimaginable for Sati practising, caste system practising and anti-widow remarrying Hindus to not indulge in such activities...

So comparing Muslims of Pakistan with Hindus of India in terms of honour killings is not an exercise in comparative/qualitative discussion...