Featured Twin IED blasts in SWTD, six including 1 officer, 2JCOs, 2NCOs Martyred

[R Wing]

The way you guys are trying to defend and coverup failures of military generals is embarrassing and shameful. These generals have failed completely to evolve as per the threats that this country is facing. They also failed to show any concern for the soldiers that are dying every now and then. These generals are a failure in every sense but here you think we are giving kneejerk reactions for losing soldiers daily in the same manner after 15 years of war against terror

Except some generals like General Raheel Shareef, General Tariq Khan and General Haroon Aslam most of Pakistani top brass has proven to be completely unable and inept to even defend their own troops let alone this country. General bajwa has not only failed to respond to threats faced by Pakistan but also brought down repute of Pakistan army as an institution but you don't want to accept that. His unnecessary extension has only made Pak army more controversial and has only provided ammo to anti Pakistan forces. This also raises questions on the training and education that has been imparted in Pakistan Military Academy that has given us such military leadership

Wake up. We aren't winning the war. We are losing men continuously for nothing and our only hope right now is that Taliban might be able to get a say in Kabul government that would somehow solve our security issues. This is the only solution that our leadership has right now

You want us to shut our eyes and bury our heads in the sand on the name of unity and patriotism. That is not patriotism. Period


Okay now we have another excuse guys. The list of excuses keeps on growing

This time it is area of the said regions. The area is too big so few dozen soldiers dying every month is fine and something acceptable

It is patriots like you who can possibly give us any hope of change.

The way you guys are trying to defend and coverup failures of military generals is embarrassing and shameful. These generals have failed completely to evolve as per the threats that this country is facing. They also failed to show any concern for the soldiers that are dying every now and then. These generals are a failure in every sense but here you think we are giving kneejerk reactions for losing soldiers daily in the same manner after 15 years of war against terror

Except some generals like General Raheel Shareef, General Tariq Khan and General Haroon Aslam most of Pakistani top brass has proven to be completely unable and inept to even defend their own troops let alone this country. General bajwa has not only failed to respond to threats faced by Pakistan but also brought down repute of Pakistan army as an institution but you don't want to accept that. His unnecessary extension has only made Pak army more controversial and has only provided ammo to anti Pakistan forces. This also raises questions on the training and education that has been imparted in Pakistan Military Academy that has given us such military leadership

Wake up. We aren't winning the war. We are losing men continuously for nothing and our only hope right now is that Taliban might be able to get a say in Kabul government that would somehow solve our security issues. This is the only solution that our leadership has right now

You want us to shut our eyes and bury our heads in the sand on the name of unity and patriotism. That is not patriotism. Period


Okay now we have another excuse guys. The list of excuses keeps on growing

This time it is area of the said regions. The area is too big so few dozen soldiers dying every month is fine and something acceptable

@diligence @Horus

There are two ways to fight this war. One leads to victory and the other leads to the status quo (new normals, Western/Indian pressure, defensive posture) --- in other words, failure.

1.) Invest hugely in our CT/COIN capability. Develop backward areas. Track and hunt terrorists relatively effectively, both in urban/built up and border areas.

2.) Do the above + go on the offensive. Clandestinely support the legitimate and indigenous Kashmiri struggle to exact death by a thousand cuts to the occupying Indian forces, especially via IEDs. Hunt & kill every NDS and R&AW officer, regardless of rank, who directly supports terrorism in Pakistan from Afghan soil.

#1 is where we are currently at. It does NOT raise the cost for the foreign intel agencies destabilizing Pakistan. We spend a solid amount of blood and treasure fighting terrorists, who are essentially brainwashed clones coming out of a factory. We can keep doing that endlessly and it won't create a better, stable reality.

#2 implements the most fundamental aspect of peace: deterrence. We raise the cost for our real enemy. We introduce fear of consequences. It is the only way to win --- and it is the only thing that is beyond the mental capacity or defense capability

 

[Cuirassier]

current angle of approach should be,

In Waziristan - go for the bomb-maker. It's not the third-rate militant but a highly-capable bomb-maker who is causing unacceptable casualties. use all resources, and go for him. the militants obviously have a plethora of explosives. sweep in the mountains that extend along the NW-SW boundary. It's going to be arduous but you've got no option. really disappointed on the minimal use of UAV tech for recon here, leave aside UCAV. these losses also show how crucial PAF and Army Avn support was during the full-fledged operations phase. remember - the militant is purely local here has been born and bred in these mountains, has relatives and people will attend his funeral after his body arrives from an IBO; they know him. he will obviously have an upper edge over you. turn the tide - reactive to proactive.

the army is getting caught off-guard too frequently - resulting in casualties without getting the opportunity to fight back. this is obviously not good for the morale of troops. a good commander will respond. he has to respond.

on a side-note, in ex-FATA the only other region facing persistent militant activity is Bajaur, that too along the border. Our men are getting sniped at far too easily. and we have all the means to respond. but we aren't. another frustrating frontier. baffling conduct; spineless in the wrong places.

 

[Ghost 125]

Sir, in genuine honesty, what keeps us from putting falcos out for large convoy security details? Specially when we know that these are restive areas? Drones out of Gwadar, Pasni and Ormara alone can take care of the coastal highway, even if we do not involve Karachi. And this is a known fact.

i want that too, but we have to make the best use of what we have... these are not large convoys, they usually hit packet of 2, 3 or 4 vehicles...same happened in shaktoi and in ormara... escort vehicles of OGDCL employees were hit. i would love to see a drone over each and every convoy or protection detail in all the hotspots...but question is , was that kind of overwatch even available to the most modern forces in 20 year long conflicts in Afghanistan and middle east... even they got ambushed, even they could not cover all their moves with overwatch like that.
things will get better, Balochistan is the priority now. MRAPs, drones or other measures...change ll come in upcomming years.

 

[bhola record]

i want that too, but we have to make the best use of what we have... these are not large convoys, they usually hit packet of 2, 3 or 4 vehicles...same happened in shaktoi and in ormara... escort vehicles of OGDCL employees were hit. i would love to see a drone over each and every convoy or protection detail in all the hotspots...but question is , was that kind of overwatch even available to the most modern forces in 20 year long conflicts in Afghanistan and middle east... even they got ambushed, even they could not cover all their moves with overwatch like that.
things will get better, Balochistan is the priority now. MRAPs, drones or other measures...change ll come in upcomming years.

you remember the time in iraq 2004 2008 when all us convoys were under threat from ieds and ambush the approach of some officers were simple one was whenever you move with big convoy and support elements what ever it may be send a recon fast moving vehicle first in swat ops i think most of the convoys had cobras for overwatch why not here ?
second a marine posted in iraq used a small remote which of a very low frequency a remote controlled care remote and he used to press it for remote controlled ieds.This nature of war is diificult even 2 superpower admitted defeat and we are still going and inshallah we will go all the way

 

[Areesh]

It is patriots like you who can possibly give us any hope of change.



@diligence @Horus

There are two ways to fight this war. One leads to victory and the other leads to the status quo (new normals, Western/Indian pressure, defensive posture) --- in other words, failure.

1.) Invest hugely in our CT/COIN capability. Develop backward areas. Track and hunt terrorists relatively effectively, both in urban/built up and border areas.

2.) Do the above + go on the offensive. Clandestinely support the legitimate and indigenous Kashmiri struggle to exact death by a thousand cuts to the occupying Indian forces, especially via IEDs. Hunt & kill every NDS and R&AW officer, regardless of rank, who directly supports terrorism in Pakistan from Afghan soil.

#1 is where we are currently at. It does NOT raise the cost for the foreign intel agencies destabilizing Pakistan. We spend a solid amount of blood and treasure fighting terrorists, who are essentially brainwashed clones coming out of a factory. We can keep doing that endlessly and it won't create a better, stable reality.

#2 implements the most fundamental aspect of peace: deterrence. We raise the cost for our real enemy. We introduce fear of consequences. It is the only way to win --- and it is the only thing that is beyond the mental capacity or defense capability

Thanks brother

But I have given up hope with this spineless leadership both in uniform and without uniform. I don't think anything would change even after losing 22 men in 5 days. Troops would continue to move in tin trucks. No armored vehicles would be introduced. No drones would be used both for recon or combat. Enemy would continue to kill us at time and place of its own choosing. We would continue to don't payback since we have usa and western world to satisfied. Our leadership would continue to harp peace mantra while our soldiers would keep getting killed in same areas that they were killed before. Nothing but condemnations would come out of them

I hope and pray that may Allah give us a leadership that doesn't miss a spine. For now we have no one to lead us. The current lot lacks balls and no number of dead Pakistani soldiers can grow them for our leadership.

Pakistan Zindabad

 

[waz]

Look at the Azeris.....Stationary, moving targets, you name it all being hit with the MAM (smart micro munition) from loitering drones.
Slightly off-topic one wonders why the Pakistani army chiefs can't do the same with the terrorists who slaughtered 20 of our troops this week.
This was a full on ambush, which was prepared at length, which had visible terrorist movements, resources bought with them, yet they carried it out with ruthless precision. We managed to kill two back in a hit. A few Turkish drones with the MAM-C/L hitting these devils would be the end of it. Bang take them out, move on for more targets, if not loiter and obseve.
I'm sorry, but for most Pakistanis these deaths were the straw that broke the camel's back. The men, each life are so precious. I sometimes think people shrug their shoulders and think "oh we have 230 million people" we can get more troops, we will get them next time.

 

[HAIDER]

In few days 30 soldiers down ...its massive number .... revenge is due ... NOW

 

[alphapak]

Does Pak have any armed drones? Turkey and China have so many different
frones but how many has Pak made?

 

[R Wing]

Look at the Azeris.....Stationary, moving targets, you name it all being hit with the MAM (smart micro munition) from loitering drones.
Slightly off-topic one wonders why the Pakistani army chiefs can't do the same with the terrorists who slaughtered 20 of our troops this week.
This was a full on ambush, which was prepared at length, which had visible terrorist movements, resources bought with them, yet they carried it out with ruthless precision. We managed to kill two back in a hit. A few Turkish drones with the MAM-C/L hitting these devils would be the end of it. Bang take them out, move on for more targets, if not loiter and obseve.
I'm sorry, but for most Pakistanis these deaths were the straw that broke the camel's back. The men, each life are so precious. I sometimes think people shrug their shoulders and think "oh we have 230 million people" we can get more troops, we will get them next time.

Does Pak have any armed drones? Turkey and China have so many different
frones but how many has Pak made?

You are right --- but, if I may, I think we are trading tactics for strategy.

Tactics are irrelevant if the strategy makes no sense.

Until we RAISE THE COST of supporting terrorism in Pakistan for R&AW officers stationed in Afghanistan personally and the Indian government generally (by making IOK a proper flashpoint where an IED goes off every week and at least 5-10 occupying forces personnel die), this cycle will keep repeating. You have to eventually do something about the source. We are talking about tactics to kill clones (usually brainwashed and/or drugged kids) coming out of a cloning factory based outside our borders and supported/financed/constructed by hostile intelligence agencies. Until you do something not only about the factory but the people behind it, you are fighting a losing battle no matter how many drones you use to kill the clones. They are cannon fodder for R&AW.

The basis of peace is deterrence. We still haven't figured out how to deter India in the subconventional and unconventional domain because our top brass have ready excuses like FATF and Western masters to appease. Until we introduce FEAR OF CONSEQUENCES in the hearts of R&AW scum posted in various consulates in Afghanistan (which means literally eliminating high ranking officials known to be supporting terrorism here), there is no hope of betterment.

 

[alibaz]

Point is pretty simple
Pakistan had highest number of IED and suicide blasts in 20 years yet the army neither came up with an indegnious MRAP nor imported one while continuing importing sophisticated weapons


FC has faced 90% of these casualties...
Is FC being ignored as it's a paramilitary force????

IF I say anything else my posts will be marked "inappropriate " so I will let it to the "imagination " of the readers

Dear can you please substantiate your 90% causality claim?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

FATF and Western masters to appease.

Sir,

Those aren’t excuses, they are very real concerns.

Please do not forget that without an economy, neither tactics nor strategy can be supported long term.

If even China and Turkey aren’t immune from varying degrees of punitive economic and military actions by the US, what chance will Pakistan have?

The US Establishment has decided to go after China, and India is a big part of their plans, which means that what you’re proposing has to be handled much more carefully than it was in the past.

 

[BoggedDown]

I am sure PA high ups do not enjoy the situation that it could not provide required equipments to its line soldiers and due to which they have to still use tin cans and killed mercilessly. The root cause of the problem is due to PAs f*cked up procurement policies since last few decades. All its planned and intended procurements like tanks, gunships, howitzers, APCs etc got stuck due to one reason or another. Another reason is its preference of western equipments which very few are in offer, cost prohibitive and even if contract is signed goods are not delivered. Also as after Pakistan joining WOT, PA was expecting more excess defence equipments, though US supplied some but recently it refused to deliver anything more. On the other hand indigenous capabilities are very minimal and have to import almost all of the parts for local assembly which is not very cost or time optimal. I think local procurements of drones, MRAP, APC, tanks etc did not go as well as planned. So PA is in a fix and forced to look for Chinese offerings as nothing else are coming by. I think PA should forget western product for the time being and look for Chinese equipments which can be procured with favourable loan like satcom capable drones, MRAPS, APC, tanks etc as soon as possible. If and unless PA can not maintain the hard earned peace firmly and eliminate or keep in check the remaining trouble makes in Balochistan and western border areas Pakistan can kiss goodby CPEC or economic revival.

 

[IceCold]

The US Establishment has decided to go after China, and India is a big part of their plans, which means that what you’re proposing has to be handled much more carefully than it was in the past

Alliances are already drawn and this time we are on the opposite end. No matter how hard we try to remain neutral, it wont be possible anymore for various reasons but namely not accepting Israel for which both the US and Arab countries are upset and angry and CPEC. A conflict is brewing and we cannot put our heads in the sand expecting the storm to pass. Better to be prepared for any eventuality.

 

[Darth Vader]

Ina lila

 

[R Wing]

Sir,

Those aren’t excuses, they are very real concerns.

Please do not forget that without an economy, neither tactics nor strategy can be supported long term.

If even China and Turkey aren’t immune from varying degrees of punitive economic and military actions by the US, what chance will Pakistan have?

The US Establishment has decided to go after China, and India is a big part of their plans, which means that what you’re proposing has to be handled much more carefully than it was in the past.

I agree with everything you've said --- and you've essentially said what I'm trying to say in your concluding sentence.

What is required is not just great care (which has paralyzed us) but great vision, creativity and --- hoping against hope --- daring.

Nobody is saying there aren't real threats to our economic security --- but those existed during our nuclear tests too. There was one guy in the room (Sartaj Aziz) who argued against our tests for exactly the same reasons that you are mentioning (real concerns of sanctions, etc., back then.)

My point is --- if you have the brains and the balls, you can clandestinely go on the offensive just like you can clandestinely prep for underground nuclear tests in Chagai.

So, while the threats are real (like you stated), they are used as excuses for inaction (like I stated). I hope you get what I meant in my original post now.