Tution or Cheating, Which Is Better?

[DeathGod]

OP stated that he intended this thread to be closed a few days after its opening.

Not because of the content but because of the bias and troll activity that has become synonymous to any thread in which hard facts are presented.

I think I also pointed out India's problems with the current structure but many Chinese members took offense .

 

[saurabh]

Not because of the content but because of the bias and troll activity that has become synonymous to any thread in which hard facts are presented.

I think I also pointed out India's problems with the current structure but many Chinese members took offense .

The way you posted it, it was flame bait from start. Its surprising the thread has not gone completely south yet (Just little east-west!!).

How can Chinese be cheating (copying). Its not that if they have a aircraft they can make its replica. Not this easy. Yes, a little help they get, but just a little. Even with so matured industry they too are struggling for an engine, could not copy it from sukhoi mkki! Its not like we can simply copy products after seeing them. Metallurgy cannot be copied, electronics, avionics, software....
How do they copy that?

 

[yuvabharat]

yes i agree with the above post china even if it needs to copy it should have the basic idea and also who said they are not innovative they are most innovative and creative than us in software field.we accept that we are jealous but chinese are not perfect no one is perfect

 

[s6demon]

So first China and now Japan, I'm guessing S. Korea is next? I guess Indians have grudges against the whole of the Far-East.

India does have a lot of grudges on its East, well actually all around its borders to be honest.

But, I believe Japan will try to keep the Indo-Jap relationship simmering because this gives Japan access to another huge market and especially to one where they have a big technological leverage. Thinking behind it is because China is bound to be not so friendly towards the Japanese due to historical precedence.

 

[DeathGod]

The way you posted it, it was flame bait from start. Its surprising the thread has not gone completely south yet (Just little east-west!!).

How can Chinese be cheating (copying). Its not that if they have a aircraft they can make its replica. Not this easy. Yes, a little help they get, but just a little. Even with so matured industry they too are struggling for an engine, could not copy it from sukhoi mkki! Its not like we can simply copy products after seeing them. Metallurgy cannot be copied, electronics, avionics, software....
How do they copy that?

You dont understand the sole purpose do you? Did I ever contend that the TASK that chinese had wasnt humongous and that if India wanted it , maybe then also she couldnt reverse engineer.

I dont hold Chinese in any low regards as far as technology goes esp compared to India and some European nations. However the model which they follow is Cheating for me ( not copying ). The truth is if their and EULA's and IPR's and what not then how can you expect to reverse engineer and mass produce for national use. That should be shame for a nation as a whole.

But when Chinese buy Lavi and use it to learn (having proper permissions) and make it into a J-10 then its perfectly fine with everyone.

I have always held that its not only the final destination that determines your standing in the world but the way you reach your destination that largely factors into how the world thinks about you and learns from you.

The Way is WAY more important than the final destination.

 

[LCA Tejas]

its like this, i mean, if we want to insult india, we'd say that india's "buying the answers". but thats not it, because indian scientists are actually trying to learn the Su-30 for themselves.

you know why middle eastern countries keep losing to israel even with the best in american/russian gear and a much larger population? because they're actually "buying the answers" for the homework and then flunking the test (war).

i'm confident india is much superior to arab dictatorships, and not just buying answers but actually learning. a different style of learning than us and a slower pace, but its still learning.

despite india's problems its still one of the 4 continent sized countries that don't play by their own special rules.

Thats so true, yes India and China are both trying to learn in a different way...... And Thats the reality, China has gone too ahead in technology wise as they are confident of making one, where as India on the other hand has managed to partner in various projects and R&D through the TOT gained.... So all together both India and China have a surprisingly good future.....

 

[LCA Tejas]

Your post makes sense.

Sometimes my posts makes a lot of sense that Even I wonder, Have I got so much sense?? hehe .. thanks a lot buddy...

 

[Indian-Devil]

You need wisdom for cheating too , Its not a easy thing

I think you are sharing your experience of cheating ??

 

[su-47]

National defence is not your end-of-year exam. It is the safeguarding of your citizens. When it comes to national defence, its the end result that matters, not the means to the end. Defence is not something any nation wants to compromise on, it is something we should do ANYTHING for.

Who hasn't cheated for national defence? The Russians used espionage to copy many western products. They admitted proudly that their Vympel K-13 AAM is a reverse engineered AIM-9 captured during Second Taiwan Strait Crisis. The Russians said that the AIM-9 offered a 'university of learning'. Once they absorbed the tech, they started making upgrading and improving the missiles, and soon became self-reliant in AAMs.

Also, it is common knowledge that early US and Soviet jets were made by reverse engineering German jets, and US and Soviet ballistic missiles were reverse engineered V-2 rockets.

On the other hand, during first and second world wars, USA and USSR often got ToT from British and other allies, and also gave tech to their allies. Best example would be the British Rolls Royce Merlin Engine for the P-51 Mustang.

Whether its ToT or reverse engineering at the end of the day its national defence that matters. Also, reverse engineering is not easy. Its not photocopying, where something is blindly copied. Some tech is so complex that people trying to reverse engineer would be left stumped. It'll take years of research and learning just to understand the tech. So if the Chinese have managed to reverse engineer something, it is a credit to their scientist.

Also, Indians should understand that China doesn't have access to ToT the way we do. The best western tech is denied to them. So they have to reverse engineer. And if I were Chinese, I would be proud of my nation for doing what it must to progress in defence field, instead of staying in the same quagmire.

I think its time india also takes a leaf out of China's book. We should get ToT whenever we can, but if we can't get ToT, like with US products, we should not shy away from reverse engineering.

All is fair in love and war. And defence is both. It is matter of love for the country, and deterrence of war.

 

[Novice09]

Cheating is an art... It's not an easy task as some people think...

 

[saurabh]

You dont understand the sole purpose do you? Did I ever contend that the TASK that chinese had wasnt humongous and that if India wanted it , maybe then also she couldnt reverse engineer.

I dont hold Chinese in any low regards as far as technology goes esp compared to India and some European nations. However the model which they follow is Cheating for me ( not copying ). The truth is if their and EULA's and IPR's and what not then how can you expect to reverse engineer and mass produce for national use. That should be shame for a nation as a whole.

But when Chinese buy Lavi and use it to learn (having proper permissions) and make it into a J-10 then its perfectly fine with everyone.

I have always held that its not only the final destination that determines your standing in the world but the way you reach your destination that largely factors into how the world thinks about you and learns from you.

The Way is WAY more important than the final destination.

Hmmm, may I do not understand your point, and certainly do not know much about making a aircraft.

Suppose that chinese get a random very capable 4rth gen plane.
It is bounded by EULA and all..
Now please explain this to me, what kind of EULAs these fighter jets come with, how China can reverse engineer (cheat) that plane, and what kind of illegal things it would have to do for that.

Cause as for as I know, aircrafts cannot be copied easily. Their external design can surely be, but thats not enough, is it?

 

[DeathGod]

Hmmm, may I do not understand your point, and certainly do not know much about making a aircraft.

Suppose that chinese get a random very capable 4rth gen plane.
It is bounded by EULA and all..
Now please explain this to me, what kind of EULAs these fighter jets come with, how China can reverse engineer (cheat) that plane, and what kind of illegal things it would have to do for that.

Cause as for as I know, aircrafts cannot be copied easily. Their external design can surely be, but thats not enough, is it?

Hmm let me give you an example and explain:

China buys a squadron worth of aircrafts from Russia ( which is the sole producer of the aircraft and has other parties to sell the same product to).Russia trusts China that no critical technology will be duplicated or copied or else she wouldn't have given those aircrafts to China. Russia provides certain training for maintenance of aircraft which she wont do if she knows that China will copy her product or a part of it.

However China disregards this trust ( dont know if it comes on a piece of paper or not but well there must be some document representing rights of Sukhoi bureau) and starts experimenting on how to produce a jet of simillar propotions with similar material.
( It dont matter if it is a hell of a task to acheive this or do cheating or copying, one cant give these reasons to say that one is not cheated). China using all her might and research finally comes up with the finished product which might be/might not be better than the starting one. China is now selling this product and making profit while Russia is suffering .

Russia was the original producer of the product which wasn't to be copied ( legal terms are a binding to it) but China violated it and copied to produce the almost same aircraft .

This situation is similar to the one below:

Well I dont know but how would you feel if a research paper written by you is stolen and someone else claims it.Add to it the fact that the person who has stolen it is your friend whom you trusted.

This is the same case with Russia and China.

Things like patents and IPR's exist for a purpose and disregarding them only kills human potential to innovate.

While thinking about this I wonder what good it is to talk to people about piracy and IPR violations when most of us use a pirated version of Windows/other softwares in home PC's and watch pirated DVD's ( esp in India).

 

[saurabh]

Hmm let me give you an example and explain:

China buys a squadron worth of aircrafts from Russia ( which is the sole producer of the aircraft and has other parties to sell the same product to).Russia trusts China that no critical technology will be duplicated or copied or else she wouldn't have given those aircrafts to China. Russia provides certain training for maintenance of aircraft which she wont do if she knows that China will copy her product or a part of it.

However China disregards this trust ( dont know if it comes on a piece of paper or not but well there must be some document representing rights of Sukhoi bureau) and starts experimenting on how to produce a jet of simillar propotions with similar material.
( It dont matter if it is a hell of a task to acheive this or do cheating or copying, one cant give these reasons to say that one is not cheated). China using all her might and research finally comes up with the finished product which might be/might not be better than the starting one. China is now selling this product and making profit while Russia is suffering .

Russia was the original producer of the product which wasn't to be copied ( legal terms are a binding to it) but China violated it and copied to produce the almost same aircraft .

This situation is similar to the one below:

Well I dont know but how would you feel if a research paper written by you is stolen and someone else claims it.Add to it the fact that the person who has stolen it is your friend whom you trusted.

This is the same case with Russia and China.

Things like patents and IPR's exist for a purpose and disregarding them only kills human potential to innovate.

While thinking about this I wonder what good it is to talk to people about piracy and IPR violations when most of us use a pirated version of Windows/other softwares in home PC's and watch pirated DVD's ( esp in India).

This is what I am asking (the bold part).
How do they copy? They have a design, but no knowledge of material used. Some materials/parts used in plane making are very difficult to produce. Recall kaveri, single crystal blades etc. Then comes the electronics, softwares, etc. We are building Al-31FP, under a deep technology transfer agreement, yet cant make kaveri. The Chinese too are struggling with engine, couldn't reverse engineer from the Russian planes. World knows how to make GaAs, JFETs etc. But how many countries makes AESA?
My question is, how do you define whats copying and how do you say Chinese copy, while rest of the world innovates?

 

[DeathGod]

My question is, how do you define whats copying and how do you say Chinese copy, while rest of the world innovates?

Before I answer that question please answer my question:

Did the Chinese had consent of the party supplying them their products to do a so-called surgery to find out how they are being produced?

See we can get embroiled in the difficulty of producing such complex equipments but no matter how complex a certain part is it doesnt discount the fact that Chinese werent suppose to do what they did and are currently doing.

You mentioned single crystal engine. Now lets say that Chinese bought some Russian engines , took the blades out and gave various labs to research on how it could be produced. They also hired some foreign engineers who had experience in the same. By spending a lot of time and money they finally came up with the solution.

Now the question is:

Were they allowed to do this under terms of purchase? The simple answer is NO. And that is precisely why its copying.

 

[saurabh]

Before I answer that question please answer my question:

Did the Chinese had consent of the party supplying them their products to do a so-called surgery to find out how they are being produced?
See we can get embroiled in the difficulty of producing such complex equipments but no matter how complex a certain part is it doesnt discount the fact that Chinese werent suppose to do what they did and are currently doing.

We cannot say this sitting on an easy chair, what they did.

You mentioned single crystal engine. Now lets say that Chinese bought some Russian engines , took the blades out and gave various labs to research on how it could be produced. They also hired some foreign engineers who had experience in the same. By spending a lot of time and money they finally came up with the solution.

Material science is not that easy. You cannot look at a material and discover how it was made, you did have to go from the basics and invent something of your own. Most of the time, the process would be similar to what others used, but you would have to do it on your own. The material cannot be copied.

Now the question is:

Were they allowed to do this under terms of purchase? The simple answer is NO. And that is precisely why its copying.

Without knowing what they did, we cannot say they copied.