TURNING POINT IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN SUBCONTINENT

[Rig Vedic]

Two points: I am sorry for not having replied. Unfortunately, life is very turbulent just now, and my answers to these threads are getting more and more ragged by the day. My failing eyesight is another problem.

Sir do take care of yourself and your affairs; perhaps some Yoga and eye relaxation exercises might be of use. You may have heard of palming and the use of sunlight for rejuvenating the eyes. As regards this little discussion you are welcome to have the last word should you care to do so.

 

[indushek]

@indushek,

This earlier post of mine, where I outlined my conjecture about the Aryan invasion, answers your questions.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...story-indian-subcontinent-37.html#post3589593

Just to address the specific points in your post again:

The Aryan invaders had a tiny footprint; once they took over a particular tribe/clan/kingdom and entrenched themselves as the priesthood, they became "invisible" since the rulers, soldiers and masses were all locals. The Aryans piggybacked their cultural conquest on the back of the internecine wars where both sides were locals, so there was no reason for anyone to record the wars as a foreign invasion.

As for Islamic massacres, what's worse? To kill a few thousand men, women and children, or to completely eradicate the cultural heritage of the conquered peoples? To conquer not just their bodies, but their minds and their children's minds and their children's to the point where all that remains, after millenia, is a faint, ancestral memory of a conquest? As Joe and others have pointed out, this Vedic cultural conquest is still underway in parts of India. The few remaining stalwarts -- scions of the IVC? --are the only link to the original culture of the subcontinent before the Aryan cultural invasion.

The Aryan priesthood was no more inclusive than the Mughal court The Aryans instituted a rigid caste system to keep the priesthood exclusive (initially) and to keep their racial line pure.

As for Mughals' contribution, it depends how you look at it. We consider Islam to be a contribution, just like the Aryans contributed Vedic culture. Materially, the Mughals led India to become an economic powerhouse and have 25% of the world's GDP. There were other cultural contributions which I will leave to historians, but your comment highlights the extent of revisionism going on within India to whitewash the positive aspects that accompanied Islam into India.

Finally, blaming Pakistan for Indians' hatred of Muslims is rich. That's putting the cart before the horse. While I agree that the political conflict with Pakistan gives oxygen to religious bigots on both sides, it would be wrong to dismiss it so easily. The Hindutva movement to restore India to its "natural" culture and "purge" it of foreign contamination is purely an internal matter, with internal dynamics. Blaming it all on Pakistan (or Bangladesh) may assuage some people's guilt, but it won't solve the problem of rising Hindu fundamentalism within India.

Dear Developreo

Please understand that i have no prejudice against u or Islam or Muslims in general other than acrimony on certain points. You can believe it at face value or reject this statement. Further to this, this talk of Aryan 'modus operandi' has to be proved and still is disputed right?? Bang galore has raised some fair points in opposition and who knows in future u could be proved right or wrong. However the Muslim Invasions are recent right?

I have clearly said that these comparisons can be made with intellectuals having a historical bent of mind only. A person with cold logic on this matters will be hard to find.

Regarding blaming Pakistan, what can u do when a large chunk is torn from u based on religion and people living with u want to leave suddenly because of this religion?? Not everybody is a Gandhi , Nehru Jinnah !!! This is how human emotions work. The ensuing events and 65 years of bad blood between us hardly helps. Note that this Hindutva movement was given life by none other than congress as much as u demonise something and do the opposite of eradicating it by inclusive actions this is what happens, case in point vote bank politics. Pakistan is the embodiment of this rejection of Indian identity and your actions of eulogizing Muslim Invasions, Ghazwa e Hind, 1000 year rule etc etc are what but adding ghee to the fire?? As much as the vote bank politics persist and the terrorists do 26/11's etc chanting "Allahu Akbar" (while the key point is Pakistan's political conflict with India i accept but it wears a religious dress u know) the wheel turns. None of us can predict what will happen.

This is the present situation and the common man's thinking with average intelligence. The Joe's Bang Galore's Bomben's and Developreo's are in very less number my friend when compared to the common man.

 

[indushek]

Sir do take care of yourself and your affairs; perhaps some Yoga and eye relaxation exercises might be of use. You may have heard of palming and the use of sunlight for rejuvenating the eyes. As regards this little discussion you are welcome to have the last word should you care to do so.

Joe please try these exercises may be u could get some relief and to add try homeopathy, the elderly get great relief from it.

 

[bronxbull]

@indushek,

This earlier post of mine, where I outlined my conjecture about the Aryan invasion, answers your questions.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...story-indian-subcontinent-37.html#post3589593

Just to address the specific points in your post again:

The Aryan invaders had a tiny footprint; once they took over a particular tribe/clan/kingdom and entrenched themselves as the priesthood, they became "invisible" since the rulers, soldiers and masses were all locals. The Aryans piggybacked their cultural conquest on the back of the internecine wars where both sides were locals, so there was no reason for anyone to record the wars as a foreign invasion.

As for Islamic massacres, what's worse? To kill a few thousand men, women and children, or to completely eradicate the cultural heritage of the conquered peoples? To conquer not just their bodies, but their minds and their children's minds and their children's to the point where all that remains, after millenia, is a faint, ancestral memory of a conquest? As Joe and others have pointed out, this Vedic cultural conquest is still underway in parts of India. The few remaining stalwarts -- scions of the IVC? --are the only link to the original culture of the subcontinent before the Aryan cultural invasion.

The Aryan priesthood was no more inclusive than the Mughal court The Aryans instituted a rigid caste system to keep the priesthood exclusive (initially) and to keep their racial line pure.

As for Mughals' contribution, it depends how you look at it. We consider Islam to be a contribution, just like the Aryans contributed Vedic culture. Materially, the Mughals led India to become an economic powerhouse and have 25% of the world's GDP. There were other cultural contributions which I will leave to historians, but your comment highlights the extent of revisionism going on within India to whitewash the positive aspects that accompanied Islam into India.

Finally, blaming Pakistan for Indians' hatred of Muslims is rich. That's putting the cart before the horse. While I agree that the political conflict with Pakistan gives oxygen to religious bigots on both sides, it would be wrong to dismiss it so easily. The Hindutva movement to restore India to its "natural" culture and "purge" it of foreign contamination is purely an internal matter, with internal dynamics. Blaming it all on Pakistan (or Bangladesh) may assuage some people's guilt, but it won't solve the problem of rising Hindu fundamentalism within India.

Those lines are perfect for islamic conquest and the killing true for Aryan fights or whatever.

Almost all local gods and practices,local languages,dialect have all been preserved and infact it was an exchange of ideas with political manifestations,quite the opp of what happened after muhammad bin qasim came here.

Aryan priesthood's racial line is not pure or whatever by any means,just the spirit of the culture is.

Caste is Racial thing or community thing,Varna/Occupation is not.

There have always been people moving across Varnas all the time.

And the Intelligentsia is what always gets respect all the time,everywhere.

We are talking about a time with no organized society/community and people were just migrating from one place to another.

Islam is no contribution,it came to India at a time and offered nothing useful which was not there already.

Thats why even today the Abrahamic religions need money and bribes to get converts as it was before.

The so called Vedic cultural conquest will happen or not happen,succeed or not on its own merits and from what i have seen,is already largely succesful and is the only example of inclusive developement of societies and without loss of blood.

 

[Bang Galore]

Joe please try these exercises may be u could get some relief and to add try homeopathy, the elderly get great relief from it.

Rubbing salt to the wound, eh?

 

[bronxbull]

What did the Mughals do that people did not do already?

The trade routes existed already,agriculture and productivity existed already,the music was there already,better food was there already.

Seriously,what is it that the Mughals contributed barring promoting nawabi laziness & meat/fat rich food which made the locals lazy.

India has done better despite the mughals and not because.

 

[bronxbull]

Dear Developreo

Please understand that i have no prejudice against u or Islam or Muslims in general other than acrimony on certain points. You can believe it at face value or reject this statement. Further to this, this talk of Aryan 'modus operandi' has to be proved and still is disputed right?? Bang galore has raised some fair points in opposition and who knows in future u could be proved right or wrong. However the Muslim Invasions are recent right?

I have clearly said that these comparisons can be made with intellectuals having a historical bent of mind only. A person with cold logic on this matters will be hard to find.

Regarding blaming Pakistan, what can u do when a large chunk is torn from u based on religion and people living with u want to leave suddenly because of this religion?? Not everybody is a Gandhi , Nehru Jinnah !!! This is how human emotions work. The ensuing events and 65 years of bad blood between us hardly helps. Note that this Hindutva movement was given life by none other than congress as much as u demonise something and do the opposite of eradicating it by inclusive actions this is what happens, case in point vote bank politics. Pakistan is the embodiment of this rejection of Indian identity and your actions of eulogizing Muslim Invasions, Ghazwa e Hind, 1000 year rule etc etc are what but adding ghee to the fire?? As much as the vote bank politics persist and the terrorists do 26/11's etc chanting "Allahu Akbar" (while the key point is Pakistan's political conflict with India i accept but it wears a religious dress u know) the wheel turns. None of us can predict what will happen.

This is the present situation and the common man's thinking with average intelligence. The Joe's Bang Galore's Bomben's and Developreo's are in very less number my friend when compared to the common man.

I wonder why you are trying to reason out with someone who has no clue about history,

The Hindutva movement started when Shivaji Maharaj Put his Saffron flag to fight Aurangazeb and Guru Gobind Singh started the Khalsa to do the same.

It is because of that movement that we still exist today,else sabka sunnat ya baptism ho jaata.

We would be like Pakistan/Philippines in the world and nobody ll give us any respect.

You learn to be proud,first.

 

[indushek]

Rubbing salt to the wound, eh?

haha... i know that Joe gets angry when anybody says 'old' or 'elderly' with his name. The 'young' Joe could do these for his health u know.

 

[vsdoc]

On the palming bit, I am sure he is going to counter suggest something with the palm closed.

 

[indushek]

I wonder why you are trying to reason out with someone who has no clue about history,

The Hindutva movement started when Shivaji Maharaj Put his Saffron flag to fight Aurangazeb and Guru Gobind Singh started the Khalsa to do the same.

It is because of that movement that we still exist today,else sabka sunnat ya baptism ho jaata.

We would be like Pakistan/Philippines in the world and nobody ll give us any respect.

You learn to be proud,first.

Isn't it important for a discussion that we be clear on points without pre dispositions?? after all we are here to discuss and learn more??

On the palming bit, I am sure he is going to counter suggest something with the palm closed.

Be careful he could palm u first doc , dadaji ko gussa mat dilao.

 

[bronxbull]

Isn't it important for a discussion that we be clear on points without pre dispositions?? after all we are here to discuss and learn more??

Yeah but you read his post and realise what it is,it is full of fart and random ****.

thats why am asking you to do your own independent research,one example

You see how many local gods exist all across India and also how different languages easily cut across other languages like how people of Telengana speak a dialect with urdu/sanskrit/native telugu.

This happens naturally and is not anyone's colonisation.

 

[vsdoc]

Be careful he could palm u first doc , dadaji ko gussa mat dilao.

Its not the palm you need to be worried about.

 

[indushek]

Yeah but you read his post and realise what it is,it is full of fart and random ****.

thats why am asking you to do your own independent research,one example

You see how many local gods exist all across India and also how different languages easily cut across other languages like how people of Telengana speak a dialect with urdu/sanskrit/native telugu.

This happens naturally and is not anyone's colonisation.

Thats true but as i have mentioned before, i am not that knowledgeable on history, genetics etc etc i mean to the level of the one's here. What with my occupation i get very little time for study which i accept i should be doing but there is no other go. May be at some point in future i could get my hands on such books and time. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Thats true but as i have mentioned before, i am not that knowledgeable on history, genetics etc etc i mean to the level of the one's here. What with my occupation i get very little time for study which i accept i should be doing but there is no other go. May be at some point in future i could get my hands on such books and time. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Software side aa nuvu?

 

[bronxbull]

The Aryans were a drop in the bucket and, like the Mughals, didn't affect the gene pool significantly. It was a cultural, not a demographic, conquest.

whoever the raysn might have been,they are not a drop in the bucket.

There are three races mixed in India,almost everyone is mixed,some less or more than others.

Caucasoid,Mongloid & Australoid.

But the real mixing happened from ones temperment and culture,not from races.

Thats why you ll find all complexions,features etc in all caste types.

In two words: caste system.

Let me expand. A group of invaders (the "Aryans") came from the North West and, by means unspecified as yet, gained control of the ruling/priestly classes in Northern India. The means could have been military conquest, marriage, bribery, philosophical debate, whatever. That's an unknown, and a big hole, but let's leave that for now.

Once these invaders controlled the priesthood, they instituted a strict social hierarchy which would later evolve into the full blown caste system. The reason for this hierarchy was two-fold:

a) to keep their own "Aryan" race pure, and
b) to have strict control over all trans-generational cultural transmission. The masses were forbidden to know anything other than what the priesthood provided. It was a means of cultural genocide, pure and simple.

This had the effect of minimizing the genetic impact of/to the invaders and also wiping out any memory of indigenous culture. The Dravidian ruling elite were all for it since it ensured them an intellectually enslaved and docile populace. This appeal to the rulers may have helped spread this new ideology throughout North India and, later, beyond.



Sure. The hierarchy I postulated above was the proto-caste system in place during the time of the Rg Veda. It only had three roles: Dravidian rulers, Aryan priesthood, and Dravidian masses. Over the centuries, this evolved into the full blown caste system where the Dravidian natives were incorporated into the priestly Brahmin classes, fully diluting the Aryan genes into the local gene pool. Also, by this time, the Aryan-imported Vedic culture had become the native culture. Indeed, the only culture.



No issue here. The Aryan priesthood knew exactly where they had come from and whom they were related to. The Dravidian masses had been indoctrinated over so many generations now that they would chant anything.



I am not trying to push anything back. My earlier comment applies equally well to the Vedas. Barring archaeological or other independent evidence, there is no reason why any religious text should be taken at face value to refer to actual contemporary events. Even the oldest text could simply be retelling even older oral traditions and myths.

You are perfectly ignorant.

But you are perfect,i give you that.

Thats true but as i have mentioned before, i am not that knowledgeable on history, genetics etc etc i mean to the level of the one's here. What with my occupation i get very little time for study which i accept i should be doing but there is no other go. May be at some point in future i could get my hands on such books and time. Thanks for the suggestion though.

More than books,learn to observe around you keenly.