Turkish Naval Programs

[asaad-ul-islam]

asaad-ul-islam

We'll see bro. At the end of the day we will most certainly get HQ-9 for the land-based air defence, just not sure about naval. If we get it with ToT, then we can apply further improvements as years go by, especially in terms of range, speed and G-maneuvers. Presently the PLA is fielding a lot of HQ-9A systems alongside their existing S-300PMU. Preferably I would like to see Pakistan acquire the S-400, perhaps a joint-order with Turkey.

I personally think we may see a parallel SAM for surface ships for the ease of physical logistics (transport at sea), weight and development of universal-VLS like Mk.41. Theoretically speaking, the development of a long-range SAM is very much possible using even the Umkhonto-series...but it will mostly depend on our solid-propellant rocket technology. Even if we accomplish a range of 100km and altitude of 20km, that is good for the naval-arena; and this system can be applied on land as a medium to long-range system.

Come to think of it...if PN does acquire MEKO, then for its short to medium-range it may be able to get the IRIS-T SL-naval presently under development. An export-centric system, we may be able to acquire ToT or use it as a basis for a long-range system in the future.

bro, S-400 would be one of our wildest fantasies coming true! it all depends on our relations with Russia which, unfortunately, have not been fully realized. We could go a lot more further with the Russians, but unfortunately, our leaders have been utterly incapable of understanding the complex geo-political tuggle war going on in the region.

Forget about Russia, they've made an 'extremely' bad first impression on the Chinese. I mean, what happened when it was time for the Beijing Olympics? As Musharraf was about to travel to China, as an invited guest, they decide to impeach him and brought up their political bickering about democracy and the 'judges'. Instead of honoring the Chinese on their most important day in recent history, some of jahel ghadars decide to shower themselves with attention. I can still see Zardari spewing venom through his teeth, when he announced the impeachment of Musharraf. er.. back to the point, we can do more to improve relations with Russia.

currently, we have normalized ties with them and they have offered to enhance economic cooperation. If you can recall, initially they were only willing to approve Pakistan's full entry into the SCO, if india joined as well. depending on how indo-american relations play out, I see good weather for Pakistan with Russian approval. Only then can we see the beginning of steady supply of military equipment, hopefully moving up to the availability of the best they have to offer.

what I know so far is that Russia has only offered Turkey the most recent version of the S-300. although it's hinted that they may be willing to offer the S-400, I don't see them selling such an advance system to Turkey, a NATO member, anytime soon. perhaps in the next 5-7 years, when Turkey distances itself from the NATO and the US-which it will do-Russia would have developed an export version and may be willing to offer that instead. if that can happen, hell, I don't see why Pakistan wouldn't be able to acquire the system, especially when it is a full-fledged SCO member and wants payback for incursions into its territory accross the Durand line.

However, keep in mind, india will most likely go for the Mig-35, and if that happens we will have to wait longer and see what plays out. I can assure you, india is not going to get the superhornet or the falcons. I'm predicting the recent missile deal between the US and india will enrage Russia quite a bit, especially in recent light of the european BMD bases.

as for acquiring western equipment on terms of technology transfer, I can only see that happening through germany. they have sold us submarines on terms of technology transfer and are 'more than willing' to grab a share of Pakistani defense imports. therefore, I do see the possibility of acquiring the IRIS-T SL. I'm sure German engineering can fit such a weapon into VLS cells, and possibly be willing to cooperate with us on VLS cells. that said, we have to know when to put our foot down, and communicate very clearly that our main requirement is technology transfer. unfortunately, knowing how much of our establishment lacks the visionary foresight and are only mindful of how much commission they are going to make during the next deal, I'm afraid we will loose out on such opportunities. india now knows how to put its foot down and has only recently started the requirement of significant technology transfers from the west.

Mark, I know we are far ahead in solid propellant, or should I say 'solid-fuel' technology, at least ahead of anyone in our region. most of our ballistic missiles run on solid fuel, and the liquid fuel missiles such as Ghauri will be phased out as soon as we develop Ghauri III and Shaheen III. I know we are going to arrive at the state soon, and instead we will use the liquid-fuel missiles like Ghauri II for our space launch vehicles, since most vehicles run on liquid fuel because of their higher thrust. For SAMs, we need to seeker technology, some sort of vectoring for high maneuverability, powerful radars and tracking technology. All of which we can acquire pretty easily, if we have already gone with the Chinese on their HQ-9 offer.

 

[Quwa]

asaad,

I think this is the last 'blip' in Pakistan's issues of governance...the next group of generals in the military will be hard on the country and are not going to tolerate a weak civilian govt. Expect some heavy electorial filter systems, political reforms, bureaucratic reform/shave-down, media guidelines, land-reform, economic re-structuring, industrial revitalization, etc. Unlike before, the next group of military leaders are backed by highly educated professionals who are religious, but are professionals in areas such as International Relations, Security Planning, Economics, etc. The phase from 2009 to 2019 will be critical...even the present government is being given "briefings"...and pressure on the landlords is beginning to show.

Regarding Russia; even if India signs for MiG-35...I don't the Russians would go back to ignoring Pakistan for another decade. Say today Pakistan has a need for S-400, there is no guarantee that the Pakistan would want Russia's top of the line export system 10-15 years later. To be frank, India does not have the resources to appease everyone to the point where a country would refuse to sell to Pakistan. Pakistan's geo-political importance is established and will continue to grow...especially as a port connecting SCO to the Arabian Sea. Unlike India, it is also easier to get deals finalized with Pakistan, and we promise long-term commitment.

If the Russians are willing to offer an export variant of S-400 with ToT, then Pakistan will respond positively. A lot of Turkey's influence is shifting towards SCO as well, particularly the Central Asian states...so Russia recognizes their importance as well...especially as a gateway to S.Europe and N.Africa.

Regarding IRIS-T SL; the naval-version will be offered aggressively for export with the MEKO series of frigates and corvettes. According to the German Bundeswehr Plan, the naval IRIS-T SL will be fielded on the K-131 corvette until an export customer is found. Regarding ToT, Pakistan can certainly make a strong case, especially when considering how many future warships will be armed with this system...as well as its potential on land.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

asaad,

I think this is the last 'blip' in Pakistan's issues of governance...the next group of generals in the military will be hard on the country and are not going to tolerate a weak civilian govt. Expect some heavy electorial filter systems, political reforms, bureaucratic reform/shave-down, media guidelines, land-reform, economic re-structuring, industrial revitalization, etc. Unlike before, the next group of military leaders are backed by highly educated professionals who are religious, but are professionals in areas such as International Relations, Security Planning, Economics, etc. The phase from 2009 to 2019 will be critical...even the present government is being given "briefings"...and pressure on the landlords is beginning to show.

Regarding Russia; even if India signs for MiG-35...I don't the Russians would go back to ignoring Pakistan for another decade. Say today Pakistan has a need for S-400, there is no guarantee that the Pakistan would want Russia's top of the line export system 10-15 years later. To be frank, India does not have the resources to appease everyone to the point where a country would refuse to sell to Pakistan. Pakistan's geo-political importance is established and will continue to grow...especially as a port connecting SCO to the Arabian Sea. Unlike India, it is also easier to get deals finalized with Pakistan, and we promise long-term commitment.

If the Russians are willing to offer an export variant of S-400 with ToT, then Pakistan will respond positively. A lot of Turkey's influence is shifting towards SCO as well, particularly the Central Asian states...so Russia recognizes their importance as well...especially as a gateway to S.Europe and N.Africa.

Regarding IRIS-T SL; the naval-version will be offered aggressively for export with the MEKO series of frigates and corvettes. According to the German Bundeswehr Plan, the naval IRIS-T SL will be fielded on the K-131 corvette until an export customer is found. Regarding ToT, Pakistan can certainly make a strong case, especially when considering how many future warships will be armed with this system...as well as its potential on land.

well, I don't know much about the "post-zia" generals you are talking about, but I rest a little more easily knowing they won't sell out like the current bunch.

what is their future outlook for our defense industry and indigenous R&D and how do they intend to achieve it? do they plan to have programs where they send students abroad and china? do they plan to coordinate industrial espionage activities to assist those returning students in strategic programs of national interest? I'm basically pointing towards the Chinese, take a look at what they're doing. They launch a massive blitzkrieg in gathering whatever they can to achieve just one small thing.

do these generals plan for Pakistan to become a global power, asserting itself through contemporary indigenous fighter jets, ICBM's, AAW guided missile destroyers, nuclear attack submarines, massive expansion of space program that may even aim for something similar to GPS?

if they are aiming this high, how long do they think it will take to complete these goals, and how do they intend to do it. I'm sorry if I'm asking way too much, it's just that I assume you've had lengthy discussions with some of these generals. I would have if I were in your place.

 

[Quwa]

asaad,

If you're thinking about the present defence industry, then there will be a huge revamp of the management structure. The push to produce most systems locally and to rely on local R&D has been intense in the past few years from all services. They didn't tell me specifics, but did say to keep my mind open to a lot of major accomplishments over the next 10-15 years. It was a broad and open conversation. They did say that there will be a lot of investment in civilian infrastructure, especially in the areas of energy, sanitation, water, etc...so let's pray, Insh'Allah.

 

[JK!]

Mark Sien,

At present the Al Khalid MBT does not field variants such as AVLB, ARV and AEV to give a common heavy armour fleet.

Are there any plans to introduce these vehicles into army service?

Also what is the situation with potential exports of Al Khalid MBT?

 

[zeeshuisb]

The Turkish Navy has approved the acquisition of an LPD. Strong contenders are Italy and South Korea. The LPD will greatly resemble a LPH and it is envisaged that it will carry:
• 18 T-129 Helicopters,
• 4 Landing Craft Mechanics (LCM),
• 27 Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAV),
• 2 Landing Craft Personnel Vehicles (LCVP)
• 1 Commander Boat
• 1 RHIB (Rubber Hull Inflated Boat)

Information Dissemination: Dokdo class Strong Contender for Turkey LPD Program

Turkey has also approved the design and construction of 6 (+2 options) indigenous Stealth TF-2000 class Frigates. It was initially thought that such project would not go ahead, because Turkey was having trouble with the procurement of high-tech weapons systems, however Navy officials state this problem has been overcome by utilizing “European alternatives”. It is said that the TF-2000 could be classed as a light Destroyer. The Frigates will use indigenously developed (ASELSAN) 3D Radar.

Turkey has also approved the co-production of 6 AIP Air-independent propulsion Submarines with a German Yard.

Turkey has also approved the construction of the remaining 11 Stealth MILGEM Corvettes. Navy Officials state that because there is no problems with the construction of the First ship, TCG Heybeliada, there is no reason why the other 11 should wait for the launch of the TCG Heybeliada.

On the 23rd of August 2007, Turkey has also signed for the production of 16 Stealth Coastal Patrol Ships. DEARSAN Gemi İnşaat Sanayii A.Ş. has commenced construction of these ships at its Istanbul Yard. Albeit, classed as a Coastal Patrol Boat by Turkey, these ships can be considered as light corvettes.

In June 2007 Turkey started taking delivery of its 6 new Mine Hunting Vessels. The project was a joint-venture between Turkish Navy, Abeking&Rasmussen and Fr.Lürssen Werft of Germany.

US Congress has also approved the donation of 2 more Oliver Hazard Perry Guided Missile Frigates to Turkey on the 23rd of October 2007. These 2 vessels will immediately undergo GENESIS modernization in Istanbul, just like the other Oliver Hazard Perry in the Turkish Navy.

House panel OKs giving ships to Turkey | Politics | Reuters

Turkey has also commenced the construction of 4 Search and Rescue Ships.

Turkey has also ordered more Kaan 33 Fast Patrol Attack Craft from Yonca-Onuk. Multi weapon mounts included in this platform are.
- Stabilized naval turret with up to 30 mm. gun
(+ short range SSM).
- Medium range SSM (Total weights up to 5 tons).
- Short range SAM.
- 2 x 12.7 mm. heavy MG.
Multi sensor surveillance unit
(EOD with capabilty of controlling the main gun).
Search and rescue equipment
Decoys
SOF (Special Operation Forces) support/SDV (Seal Delivery Vehicle)
Pollution control

Turkey has also stated that a Light Aircraft Carrier project (15,000tons) will soon follow the above acquisitions. See Turkey continues studies on light carrier purchase Sea Power - Find Articles Further information will be posted about this exciting project as it becomes available.

It is said that Turkeys Aircraft Carrier will be something similar to Spains Príncipe de Asturias (R-11).

Asked about whether Turkey could afford such defence acquisitions by a “Milliyet” journalist, the Turkish Finance Minster stated that Turkey’s GDP will exceed $1.1 trillion in 6 years time at the current economic growth rates. He further added that Turkey was exceeding economic growth forecasts and hence money was not an issue in defence procurement anymore. “The old days are over” he remarked. Turkey he said "wants to be an exporter of Military technology, not solely a consumer".

Furthermore, the Turkish Armed Forces including the Navy is discussing the possibility of coating all Defence vehicles with the new version radar absorption technology developed by Ankara’s Middle East Technical University. It is said that this revolutionary technology will further significantly enhance the stealth abilities of the MILGEM corvettes and Stealth Tf-2000 Frigates currently being built in Istanbul. Furthermore, it is said because the coating is only 2mm thick it is very light and hence useable on most platforms.

It looks like Turkey will be one of the largest Navies in the Mediterranean (if not maybe the largest and most lethal in the Mediterranean). What is also important is that the Government has transferred the necessary funds for the above projects to the Ministry of Defence. Hence, these projects are in full go-ahead mode.

The Turkish Navy Inventory in 2011 will be as follows:

27 Frigates (6 can be classed as Light Destroyer)
20 Submarines
18 Corvettes
47 Fast Attack Missile Ships (Classed as Corvettes by lürssen)
85, 33m Composite Hull Fast Patrol Attack Craft built by Yonca-Onuk
22 Coast-Guard Ships- Coastal Patrol
4 Search and Rescue Ships
1 (+1) – LPD (With 18 T-129 Attack Helis)
1 Light Aircraft Carrier (15,000 to 18,000 Tons)

 

[Quwa]

Goes without saying that there is a wealth of potential for naval cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan. Not only did the two countries sign an MoU for joint naval-research & development, but have concluded deals such as MRTP-33 and MILGEM.

In my personal opinion, I think it is best for Pakistan to invest for the long-term in the TF-2000 and TF-100 frigates. It appears that Turkey will develop most of the sensor & radar technology, and I'm sure AShM & ASW systems will also be local. Only key issue would have to be AAW systems in which the Turkish Navy seems inclined towards American ESSM and SM2. I think Pakistan can devise an alternative set of solutions by focusing on indigenous development for naval medium & long-range SAMs.

 

[zeeshuisb]

i dont know how to add pictures in the article. can you help me in this

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

if Turkey acquires LPD's-a rip-off from the south korean dokdo design-they can just slightly modify the LPD to become their light aircraft carrier, instead of wasting money and building an entirely new ship. with that said, I seriously hope that the TF-2000 is built along the lines of the Arleigh Burke Destroyer.
There are four fixed arrays of SPY-1D that send out beams of electromagnetic energy in all directions simultaneously to track targets, situated on the main "octagon-shaped" island of the ship. The turks can copy that design on their TF-2000, similar to what the Chinese-recently have begun to copy western designs-with their type 052C destroyers.

 

[A1Kaid]

Don't get me wrong but Turkey is modernizing so heavily and intensely in it's armed forces as if there was an imminent threat to it's national security...Quite frankly Turkey has the 2nd strongest military in NATO, and by far the most powerful Navy in Europe. It's military power is certainly outstanding and impressive, so this quick modernization and heavy investment in it's Armed Forces seem a bit hasty I guess...Though I don't want to discourage Turkey from becoming even more powerful it has every right...


By the way, this is my first post in the Navy section!

 

[A1Kaid]

Here take a look at Turkey's TF-2000 Class and make a comparison to other countries...

 

[Kansu]

Don't get me wrong but Turkey is modernizing so heavily and intensely in it's armed forces as if there was an imminent threat to it's national security...Quite frankly Turkey has the 2nd strongest military in NATO, and by far the most powerful Navy in Europe. It's military power is certainly outstanding and impressive, so this quick modernization and heavy investment in it's Armed Forces seem a bit hasty I guess...Though I don't want to discourage Turkey from becoming even more powerful it has every right...


By the way, this is my first post in the Navy section!

Brother,i think we should seek the reasons in the changed direction of Turkey's middle east politics.
not long ago,the undersecretary of Turkish intelligence organisation said that;
''Either we become a regional power or we become a simple,small country...there is not a 3. option.''
and according to this analyse,we can see that Turkey is efforting to return to the middle east as a new player.(may be you noticed the efforts of our goverment to stop the Gaza carnage)
and in this big game,you need to be strong and ready to make others take notice of you.
as for me,-even if some of my brothers object to my words-Turkey is the west bastion of the Islamic world.thats why we have right to be strong.
Sincerely

 

[A1Kaid]

Brother,i think we should seek the reasons in the changed direction of Turkey's middle east politics.
not long ago,the undersecretary of Turkish intelligence organisation said that;
''Either we become a regional power or we become a simple,small country...there is not a 3. option.''
and according to this analyse,we can see that Turkey is efforting to return to the middle east as a new player.(may be you noticed the efforts of our goverment in Gaza carnage)
and in this big game,you need to be strong and ready to make others take notice of you.
as for me,-even if some of my brothers object to my words-Turkey is the west bastion of the Islamic world.thats why we have right to be strong.
Sincerely

Tesekkur Ederim

Yes I have studied Turkish history and study Turkish politics, trust me I know.

Again I am glad the AK Party is strengthening Islam in Turkey, despite the threats from the secular Kemalist elites like the judiciary and from the Secular Guardian Turkish armed forces Gen. COAS Buyukanit and Gen. Basbug...

I want Turkey to be powerful and mighty, and yes I have noticed Turkey reasserting itself in the Middle East, Turkey has really made an effort to help the people in Gaza, and recently PM. Erdogan spoke out against the barbarous attacks by Israel in Gaza at the World Economic Forum 2009 C.E...


I support Turkey becoming a Nuclear Power state as well as long as it will become a Islamic country and not secular...But this is a political discussion for another place and time...That's just me personally.


In regards to Turkish Navy, going back to the Ottoman Turks they had always been great naval fighters in the Mediterranean Sea.

 

[Kansu]

Thanks for your sincere answer Brother;
But i must add,i m not someone supporting Islamic elite instead of Secular elite.i think they are both same.also this is not something to be discussed hereand in our country,the Turkish Army and our Staff is the most trustworthy authority in goverment units.we should always keep in mind that some of the goverment units doesnt have an alternative.i think our last 3 chiefs of general staff are very democratic and polite persons.
even if we are muslim,we have an empire history,and a republic experience.and we accept both of them.our past gives us a responsibility,our present gives another.our burden is heavywe will overcome all these ideological problems as people accept democracy and understand the importance of the republic.
it was a pleasure to talk with you
Best regards

 

[Shiny Capstar]

Don't get me wrong but Turkey is modernizing so heavily and intensely in it's armed forces as if there was an imminent threat to it's national security...Quite frankly Turkey has the 2nd strongest military in NATO, and by far the most powerful Navy in Europe. It's military power is certainly outstanding and impressive, so this quick modernization and heavy investment in it's Armed Forces seem a bit hasty I guess...Though I don't want to discourage Turkey from becoming even more powerful it has every right...


By the way, this is my first post in the Navy section!

I am wondering how much the common soldier is benefiting from the modernisation these days. All this shiny stuff is well and good but how is the standard equipment of the standard soldier improving, that is what I want to know.
It would help a lot in the fights against the PKK and the like if the infantry receive top quality gear.