Turkish Missile Programs

[ANMDT]

I doubt those are fake, and I agree with you about that. EDGE group was unveiled, and seem much more modern in websites, and media so we will see if there will be media revealed about all of these weapon systems.

No testing, but it seems robotic production of seekers?

Research and development

Warhead design and development

Gravity-released weapon system and sub-system development

Safety & Arming Units and fuzes

Actuator mechanism development

Assembly and integration

Testing labs

First of all, this is "Turkish Missile Programs", you can post these anywhere else in ME section.

Secondly, it would have been much better if you had attached some videos, moreover some systems of those guys, especially desert sting -16 ,35 has enormous warhead weight ratios and exaggerated range values, which doesnt quite make sense for a company who recently starts to manufacture these weapons. I couldnt get sense of they actually manufactured a missile like hellfire, so far all systems are currently free-fall. In exhibitions they showcase larger and propelled missiles but those seem like at mock-up stage yet.

Lastly,@MMM-E it doesnt quite look impossible for a company to develop a working free-fall missile after retrieving the vital parts through ToT or direct purchase. They morelikely get seeker and guidance system directly while developing the rest on their own. This is a company and they seem to only focus on free-fall bombs and their production. We are in 2020, it is not quite hard to acquire engineering development tools and complete even prototype tests without even manufacturing those.

And i hope their Ansys software is licensed

@Philip the Arab ,if you are somehow affiliated to that company, or you have contact of someone from there please ask them to re-design their webpage.

 

[HannibalBarca]

This "Arab can't do anything" reminds me of European comments decade+ ago about TR defense industry...
As for those jumping on that train... Let's get it straight... Arabs CAN and will mostly achieve what they want in defense equipment... with time of course... After all... as long as their is Rivalry in the regions btw Muslims... each side will run toward that goal of "Defense autonomy"
The old generation may have been blind in that case... and enjoyed a particular vision... The new generation isn't...

The youth is highly skilled... many here may not grasp the extent of it... and think they are only sleeping under their ACs... and their "paid" diploma... But the reality is quite different...

And last... Something you don't see...doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

 

[MMM-E]

Thanks to ASELSAN , HAVELSAN , ROKETSAN , STM , TAI , TEI , MKE ,TUBITAK-SAGE , METEKSAN , KALE , BAYKAR , OTOKAR , BMC , FNSS and others

 

[Bilal.]

 

[ANMDT]

This "Arab can't do anything" reminds me of European comments decade+ ago about TR defense industry...
As for those jumping on that train... Let's get it straight... Arabs CAN and will mostly achieve what they want in defense equipment... with time of course... After all... as long as their is Rivalry in the regions btw Muslims... each side will run toward that goal of "Defense autonomy"
The old generation may have been blind in that case... and enjoyed a particular vision... The new generation isn't...

The youth is highly skilled... many here may not grasp the extent of it... and think they are only sleeping under their ACs... and their "paid" diploma... But the reality is quite different...

And last... Something you don't see...doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

If you hear anyone of saying " Arabs cant do anything" just report them of racism here,
It is just not possible to take things out of box within a few years ,defence industry products requires experiences, knowledge and tradition. You can not found a company out of nothing to suddenly produce and design anything independently,if such a company exists you can be sure of they are leaning on ToT, delivery of parts or ready to use kits to build. These companies mostly rely on some rooted companies in EU, US or Russia, or recently China.
If you are not China or India (with massive amount of people, massive amount of engineers so that you can choose the best of the best), you can not design , produce and sell any kind of ammunition within a few years, without any background. This is it.

 

[Philip the Arab]

First of all, this is "Turkish Missile Programs", you can post these anywhere else in ME section.

Secondly, it would have been much better if you had attached some videos, moreover some systems of those guys, especially desert sting -16 ,35 has enormous warhead weight ratios and exaggerated range values, which doesnt quite make sense for a company who recently starts to manufacture these weapons. I couldnt get sense of they actually manufactured a missile like hellfire, so far all systems are currently free-fall. In exhibitions they showcase larger and propelled missiles but those seem like at mock-up stage yet.

Lastly,@MMM-E it doesnt quite look impossible for a company to develop a working free-fall missile after retrieving the vital parts through ToT or direct purchase. They morelikely get seeker and guidance system directly while developing the rest on their own. This is a company and they seem to only focus on free-fall bombs and their production. We are in 2020, it is not quite hard to acquire engineering development tools and complete even prototype tests without even manufacturing those.

And i hope their Ansys software is licensed

@Philip the Arab ,if you are somehow affiliated to that company, or you have contact of someone from there please ask them to re-design their webpage.

Those pairs of two missiles don't look like free fall to me. It certainitly looks like it has a rocket motor in the back. And if you can't prove that components are made in house you can't say anything. Couldn't engineers from foreign countries just use components made in house specifically? We both won't know if they manufacture the components unless we ask or find evidence. For all we know, they could be buying commercial electronics.

Research and development

Warhead design and development

Gravity-released weapon system and sub-system development

THESE COULD EASILY BE COTS ELECTRONICS.

Actuator mechanism development

Assembly and integration

Testing labs

LOOK CLOSELY AT THE PAPER, YOU CAN SEE ALL THE SEEKER COMPONENTS. DEFINITELY NOT ASSEMBLING.

 

[HannibalBarca]

If you hear anyone of saying " Arabs cant do anything" just report them of racism here,
It is just not possible to take things out of box within a few years ,defence industry products requires experiences, knowledge and tradition. You can not found a company out of nothing to suddenly produce and design anything independently,if such a company exists you can be sure of they are leaning on ToT, delivery of parts or ready to use kits to build. These companies mostly rely on some rooted companies in EU, US or Russia, or recently China.
If you are not China or India (with massive amount of people, massive amount of engineers so that you can choose the best of the best), you can not design , produce and sell any kind of ammunition within a few years, without any background. This is it.

Ofc not in few years
But Many Small defense groups around the world were also willing to sell a "complete" package at a certain price... ofc the product may not be at a level of current gen ones... but it's enough for "now" till they build upon that...
In this particular example, that is UAE, we saw similar behavior with their Land vehicles (Nimr line) or their rifle ones (caracal) or previous missiles(from a SA group) or their B250 Turboprop platform...

So, there is a possibility for something workable to appear in a short time, even thought it's performance may not always be the top.

Now, whatever they use or a dependable on other foreign tech to support those newly acquired platform, is IMO normal, since only few countries in this world can really call themselves independent in this regards.

As for the Arab can't do it... Well... we will have to remove quite a few of guys... since as you know... at every Thread on Arabs made "somthing" it's followed by a game of " who got a bigger one and when"...

In Conclusion, I believe, the Arabs are in the right path and fast enough, when you take into account, their recent shift toward self-sustenance in that regards, No one or very few will have believed that the Arabs will get at this level just 10-15 years ago...
Many groups/entities/countries are willing to sell their previous gen products with blueprints for a hefty price...

 

[bsruzm]

And how do you know they aren't actively developing them?

Connect the dots:

UAE now has Cirit and UMTAS type missiles indigenously produced.

- Defence Turkey: As it is well known, Cirit, which is in Turkish Armed Forces inventory, made sound achievements in markets. Could any new cooperation fields on Cirit be considered in coming future with UAE?

- Roketsan: We started to discuss with Tawazun the possibilities of 'Cirit' related cooperation models at mid 2012.

- Roketsan: Roketsan signed another contract with Burkan Munition Systems. In the scope of this contract, technology transfer was realized to provide necessary infrastructure to UAE for national programs.

- Defence Turkey: As you mentioned, you have successful cooperation with Burkan Munition Systems (BMS). What are you joint plans and strategies to export other Gulf nations?

- Roketsan: We believe a cooperation that is successful should be strengthened and carried forward. In this vision we plan to set BMS as a major post for production for the requirements of other nations in the region.

Roketsan and UAE


Abu Dhabi-owned Emirates Defence Industries Company (Edic) has merged Burkan Munition Systems.


Idex 2017: Edic merges Burkan Munitions and Caracal

Introduced this month, Edge combines 22 private firms with the government-owned Emirates Defence Industries Company, the Emirates Advanced Investments Group, and Tawazun Holding.


The UAE, a major US weapons buyer, is building its own defense capabilities

 

[Philip the Arab]

Connect the dots:




- Defence Turkey: As it is well known, Cirit, which is in Turkish Armed Forces inventory, made sound achievements in markets. Could any new cooperation fields on Cirit be considered in coming future with UAE?

- Roketsan: We started to discuss with Tawazun the possibilities of 'Cirit' related cooperation models at mid 2012.

- Roketsan: Roketsan signed another contract with Burkan Munition Systems. In the scope of this contract, technology transfer was realized to provide necessary infrastructure to UAE for national programs.

- Defence Turkey: As you mentioned, you have successful cooperation with Burkan Munition Systems (BMS). What are you joint plans and strategies to export other Gulf nations?

- Roketsan: We believe a cooperation that is successful should be strengthened and carried forward. In this vision we plan to set BMS as a major post for production for the requirements of other nations in the region.

Roketsan and UAE


Abu Dhabi-owned Emirates Defence Industries Company (Edic) has merged Burkan Munition Systems.


Idex 2017: Edic merges Burkan Munitions and Caracal

Introduced this month, Edge combines 22 private firms with the government-owned Emirates Defence Industries Company, the Emirates Advanced Investments Group, and Tawazun Holding.


The UAE, a major US weapons buyer, is building its own defense capabilities

Its actually cooperation with South Korea on some of these. I can give you links for it. The Cirit type rocket LOGIR tech TOT from South Korea. Halcon is UAE company with employees who formerly worked Thales, and other defense companies who transferred knowledge.

 

[Oublious]

Ofc not in few years
But Many Small defense groups around the world were also willing to sell a "complete" package at a certain price... ofc the product may not be at a level of current gen ones... but it's enough for "now" till they build upon that...
In this particular example, that is UAE, we saw similar behavior with their Land vehicles (Nimr line) or their rifle ones (caracal) or previous missiles(from a SA group) or their B250 Turboprop platform...

So, there is a possibility for something workable to appear in a short time, even thought it's performance may not always be the top.

Now, whatever they use or a dependable on other foreign tech to support those newly acquired platform, is IMO normal, since only few countries in this world can really call themselves independent in this regards.

As for the Arab can't do it... Well... we will have to remove quite a few of guys... since as you know... at every Thread on Arabs made "somthing" it's followed by a game of " who got a bigger one and when"...

In Conclusion, I believe, the Arabs are in the right path and fast enough, when you take into account, their recent shift toward self-sustenance in that regards, No one or very few will have believed that the Arabs will get at this level just 10-15 years ago...
Many groups/entities/countries are willing to sell their previous gen products with blueprints for a hefty price...

Ther is no called bleuprints of a old gen weapon, that story that KSA have spread is nothing but lie. Lets assume they have, and then what? Do you have the technology to make that parts is the next step, againg you will need industry to achieve. In this world ther is not much ToT, the faster Arab countries learn this they will really start somewher.

Infrared sensor in a heat seeker of a missile, try to buy it and ask for blueprints. Defence industy is like a science industry, no R&D no gain. Look to the video what you need to make a part of a part.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Ther is no called bleuprints of a old gen weapon, that story that KSA have spread is nothing but lie. Lets assume they have, and then what? Do you have the technology to make that parts is the next step, againg you will need industry to achieve. In this world ther is not much ToT, the faster Arab countries learn this they will really start somewher.

Well they proved capable of it... A decade ago... they were absolutely nothing... and see now...
When you have the leadership/ Engineers and Money... a lot of thing can work out fast...

And let's put the eggs back in their places... We are not talking about Arabs manufacturing US grade equipment... but acquiring basic platform for further updates...

What Arabs lacked for years/decades wasn't the "Mind pool" or "Money"... but the leadership/ the will to use them for a common purpose...

Remember Everything is doable...every single thing... you just need a purpose that drives you to it... When you feel corned... you will be surprised of what you can achieve... and few countries in the region proved it...

And please drop the " Arabs do not have R&D" even Zimbabwe has it...

 

[Oublious]

That being said, the achievements of Turkish defence industry today is projects that is started between 6 and 10 years ago. Milgem goes back to 1999 for example, ATAK somewher in 2004.

Well they proved capable of it... A decade ago... they were absolutely nothing... and see now...
When you have the leadership/ Engineers and Money... a lot of thing can work out fast...

And let's put the eggs back in their places... We are not talking about Arabs manufacturing US grade equipment... but acquiring basic platform for further updates...

What Arabs lacked for years/decades wasn't the "Mind pool" or "Money"... but the leadership/ the will to use them for a common purpose...

Remember Everything is doable...every single thing... you just need a purpose that drives you to it... When you feel corned... you will be surprised of what you can achieve... and few countries in the region proved it...

And please drop the " Arabs do not have R&D" even Zimbabwe has it...

Yes totally agree, but i can not find something in the Arab world today. I am not saying Arabs can do nothing, but ther is not really R&D going on.

 

[HannibalBarca]

That being said, the achievements of Turkish defence industry today is projects that is started between 6 and 10 years ago. Milgem goes back to 1999 for example, ATAK somewher in 2004.




Yes totally agree, but i can not find something in the Arab world today. I am not saying Arabs can do nothing, but ther is not really R&D going on.

It's not public. Some may call it Keeping an advantage others may call it paranoia... But There is another way to check for R&D... without visual proofs... it's checking cash flows... Like Investment made here and there without a "Product" in the line... New Entities opening up, who only hires dozens/hundreds of engineers/researchers... University collaborations in very specific technologies etc... with all of them... for a "Defense/military" possible application.

As for Arabs... you can check in the early days of Arab nations and their huge military complex... Where per example TN was among the first to make a Military drone... Egypt with their fighter jet program... Iraq/Syria and their Ballistic program... and so on... But faith decided otherwise... Morons took control and the result... well... we know it...

 

[ANMDT]

Those pairs of two missiles don't look like free fall to me. It certainitly looks like it has a rocket motor in the back. And if you can't prove that components are made in house you can't say anything. Couldn't engineers from foreign countries just use components made in house specifically? We both won't know if they manufacture the components unless we ask or find evidence. For all we know, they could be buying commercial electronics.

Research and development

Warhead design and development

Gravity-released weapon system and sub-system development

THESE COULD EASILY BE COTS ELECTRONICS.

Actuator mechanism development

Assembly and integration

Testing labs

LOOK CLOSELY AT THE PAPER, YOU CAN SEE ALL THE SEEKER COMPONENTS. DEFINITELY NOT ASSEMBLING.

Those 2 missiles werent listed at their website,so i doubt if those are operational, they could be developing the prototypes for those.
As for rest of the pictures, doesnt it a bit look like " set up ", who on earth would take such photographs and share them on their website? Its unprofessional. And no way it is desk of an engineer, no way.
After all its impossible for a single company to handle development of all those parts, there should have been subcontractors ( probably there is for some of components) yet those pictures of some guys drawing things on computer dont prove anything about the entire project.

Ofc not in few years
But Many Small defense groups around the world were also willing to sell a "complete" package at a certain price... ofc the product may not be at a level of current gen ones... but it's enough for "now" till they build upon that...
In this particular example, that is UAE, we saw similar behavior with their Land vehicles (Nimr line) or their rifle ones (caracal) or previous missiles(from a SA group) or their B250 Turboprop platform...

So, there is a possibility for something workable to appear in a short time, even thought it's performance may not always be the top.

Now, whatever they use or a dependable on other foreign tech to support those newly acquired platform, is IMO normal, since only few countries in this world can really call themselves independent in this regards.

As for the Arab can't do it... Well... we will have to remove quite a few of guys... since as you know... at every Thread on Arabs made "somthing" it's followed by a game of " who got a bigger one and when"...

In Conclusion, I believe, the Arabs are in the right path and fast enough, when you take into account, their recent shift toward self-sustenance in that regards, No one or very few will have believed that the Arabs will get at this level just 10-15 years ago...
Many groups/entities/countries are willing to sell their previous gen products with blueprints for a hefty price...

If there is possibility of something workable in a short time, then it is not belonging to them at all but it is just an assembly and building a new body for an already existing missile. Their miniature free fall bombs has pretty exciting warhead to total weight ratios, its an extraordinary performance thus it doesnt seem achievable in short time.
UAE might be developing some missile, yet none of us or judging or underlooking them ,the matter is there are doubts.

 

[Constantinople]

Guys who did these comparisons ? Can I use them ?