Turkish general elections 2015 updates and final result.

[LegionnairE]

We can reform religion. Turkish Dinayat did reforms

We can teach a better, more sophisticated understanding of Islam to future generations. It would be a challenge though..

Bro... I believe Turkey is the most advanced muslim country out there and it has been this way since it's very foundation. (No offense to Pakistan, I think you've been doing great considering the circumstances.)

And just look at our rape rate, look at the murder rate of women.. domestic violence, child abuse

no matter how well we teach Islam, it won't help with these issues.

And even if %1 of the people we teach Islam becomes extremists like taliban it's enough to fvck the country up.
These people have no respect for the law, no respect for the secular state...
The whole religion is volatile and dangerous.

 

[AUz]

Bro... I believe Turkey is the most advanced muslim country out there and it has been this way since it's very foundation. (No offense to Pakistan, I think you've been doing great considering the circumstances.)

And just look at our rape rate, look at the murder rate of women.. domestic violence, child abuse

no matter how well we teach Islam, it won't help with these issues.

And even if %1 of the people we teach Islam becomes extremists like taliban it's enough to fvck the country up.
These people have no respect for the law, no respect for the secular state...
The whole religion is volatile and dangerous.

But how are these things related to Islam or its interpretation?

All of the things happen in U.S too..probably a worst rates than Turkey.

And 1% of Turkey would be hundreds of thousands of people..and in presence of a solid state, good education system, and so on...hundreds of thousands of Turks becoming crazy batsh!t ISIS type extremists is almost an impossibility.

 

[LegionnairE]

But how are these things related to Islam or its interpretation?

really? dude? domestic violence isn't related to islam or it's interpretation? Okay
I thought we acknowledged some things but apparently we didn't.

All of the things happen in U.S too..probably a worst rates than Turkey.

And 1% of Turkey would be hundreds of thousands of people..and in presence of a solid state, good education system, and so on...hundreds of thousands of Turks becoming crazy batsh!t ISIS type extremists is almost an impossibility.

no, not worse than Turkey

and according to latest polls %12 of Turkey wants sharia... that's an alarmingly incerasing rate. The danger will become more apparent if AKP falls from power.

 

[anatolia]

pkk,dhkp-c,tikko,mlkb.....
all of above groubs are communist and atheist..and they have killed 99% of our soldiers and polices..

 

[LegionnairE]

pkk,dhkp-c,tikko,mlkb.....
all of above groubs are communist and atheist..and they have killed 99% of our soldiers and polices..

What are you trying to say? they also all agreed that the earth was round.
so round earthers are evil?

Hitler was a christian, Stalin was an atheist, Usame Bin Ladin was a muslim.

But arguably for the first two violence was a means to an end, for the third one violence was a way of life.

 

[kalu_miah]

@kalu_miah of course religion played an important role in our social evolution... nobody's denying that. The idea of an abstract god was an advancement in thinking 3500+ years ago. In my opinion the ability to form abstract thoughts was a mental advancement for our species so I'm inclined to agree with that part. But as you can see I'm talking in past tense. as we lost certain organs in our biological evolution, it's time we lose religion in our social evolution.

I hope google translate provides some half decent subtitles here:

in this video professor Celal Şengör explains that historically there are two roles of religion in society. The first one is explaining the nature, and we all know religion has become obsolete at that. And the second one is providing social order. And we can see how obsolete religion has become by looking at countries that are ruled by sharia and the social order is provided by religion. Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran...

In my world view I see religion as a dividing force instead of a uniting one. Because religion always has a tendency to form into smaller and smaller sects.

In Turkey we have "faculties of divinity" in our universities and there are proffessors who devoted their lives to religion. And when you put these guys together you see that they can't agree on a verse of Kuran. It's maddening, and since it's impossible to ask god "what did you really mean by this?" people just settle their differences in violence. It's counter productive.

I still think that rising of christianity has played a bigger role in the collapse of the Roman empire than the barbarian hordes coming at them.

If you think religion is obsolete, what are the chances that you will be able to convince majority of your countrymen to give up religion? How about the people around you?

Roman empire may have fallen, but EU is still alive largely as a Christian club, denying entry to Muslim Turkey, so far that is.

I am not a big fan of religion myself, but I do not see religion going away anytime soon, so my theories are a way to make lemonade out of lemon, meaning to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[AUz]

really? dude? domestic violence isn't related to islam or it's interpretation? Okay
I thought we acknowledged some things but apparently we didn't.

Well, domestic violence can't be entirely blamed on Islam. A certain type of interpretation of Islam can "add" to the problem, and can make it easier to justify in someone's mind. But Islam, alone, can't be blamed for the phenomenon entirely.

Also, how do Islam play a role in rape rate, the murder rate of women, and child abuse?

 

[LegionnairE]

Well, domestic violence can't be entirely blamed on Islam. A certain type of interpretation of Islam can "add" to the problem, and can make it easier to justify in someone's mind. But Islam, alone, can't be blamed for the phenomenon entirely.

Also, how do Islam play a role in rape rate, the murder rate of women, and child abuse?

well, I would explain that... but then I'd get banned

If you think religion is obsolete, what are the chances that you will be able to convince majority of your countrymen to give up religion? How about the people around you?

I don't usually emphasize too much on how morally obsolete religion is...
because as you can see people are taking offense at that.

I just stick to the scientific facts, explain evolution, the space, the universe..
So basically I just explain how adam & eve, noah's ark can't possibly be true... I explain that there's no evidence that moses even lived and that ancient egyptian history didn't record an event where pharoah got drowned in the red sea etc.

But some people are stupid enough to study biology and still deny evolution.
For them there's nothing that I can do. They'll just live and die with their stupid ideas.
But I try to save those that I can and encourage them to study science.

 

[kalu_miah]

well, I would explain that... but then I'd get banned


I don't usually emphasize too much on how morally obsolete religion is...
because as you can see people are taking offense at that.

I just stick to the scientific facts, explain evolution, the space, the universe..
So basically I just explain how adam & eve, noah's ark can't possibly be true... I explain that there's no evidence that moses even lived and that ancient egyptian history didn't record an event where pharoah got drowned in the red sea etc.

But some people are stupid enough to study biology and still deny evolution.
For them there's nothing that I can do. They'll just live and die with their stupid ideas.
But I try to save those that I can and encourage them to study science.

I admire your individual effort. But think about the scale, what impact it will have on the great masses of people.

If you want to see people move away from religion, the best way you would be able accomplish that is by developing their material and financial well being. This is where my theories come in. If you look at societies around the world, it is the poorer ones that cling to religion more than more affluent ones. There are some counter trends as well, for example, within affluent societies like the US, there are some religious people who do financially better than less religious ones:
Wealth and religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jewish are one of the most interesting group of people who despite their wealth, cling to religion and use it in the most creative way to unite their diverse ethno-linguistic community.

Yet the greater general trend is that once a country becomes more affluent then overall they become less and less religious.

So I would argue that by using religion and managing it in a creative way, it is possible to unite a greater mass of human beings and let them have a more affluent and prosperous future (evolve their society), which will then let them become less religious in course of time, as has been seen in recent centuries and decades in many parts of the world.

 

[LegionnairE]

I admire your individual effort. But think about the scale, what impact it will have on the great masses of people.

If you want to see people move away from religion, the best way you would be able accomplish that is by developing their material and financial well being. This is where my theories come in. If you look at societies around the world, it is the poorer ones that cling to religion more than more affluent ones. There are some counter trends as well, for example, within affluent societies like the US, there are some religious people who do financially better than less religious ones:
Wealth and religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jewish are one of the most interesting group of people who despite their wealth, cling to religion and use it in the most creative way to unite their diverse ethno-linguistic community.

Yet the greater general trend is that once a country becomes more affluent then overall they become less and less religious.

So I would argue that by using religion and managing it in a creative way, it is possible to unite a greater mass of human beings and let them have a more affluent and prosperous future (evolve their society), which will then let them become less religious in course of time, as has been seen in recent centuries and decades in many parts of the world.

There's truth to that, Yeah, I think as people get used to more luxurious lifestlyes... things like "don't eat pork" or "don't have sex" kind of seems ... pointless I guess... they do tend to get less religious

But that's not due to an enlightenment or sudden realization.... you need to be aware of that.
That's not what I want to achieve

I don't like those kind of atheists... they are simply empty people
Inability to keep my dick in my pants isn't why I became an atheist

 

[anatolia]

What are you trying to say? they also all agreed that the earth was round.
so round earthers are evil?

Hitler was a christian, Stalin was an atheist, Usame Bin Ladin was a muslim.

But arguably for the first two violence was a means to an end, for the third one violence was a way of life.

iam trying t say it does not matter what you are atheist or muslim etc if theperson has no brain.

 

[LegionnairE]

iam trying t say it does not matter what you are atheist or muslim etc if theperson has no brain.

well, I suggest we count communism as a religion
I refuse to be in the same group with them

 

[Bismarck]

Qur'an wasn't "changed" so to speak during Uthman's times. It would be impossible to do. It was standardized into one universal reading.

Qur'an of today is exactly same what Muhammad (SAW) dictated. Whether you believe he received it from God or dictated it from his own mind--its upto you and your belief system.

Having said it, it is undisputed belief in Islam that Qur'an is perfect word of God and unchangeable. Hence, any "change" or any "effort" to introduce "change" in Qur'an is futile. It has never worked in history before, and it never will. Islam isn't Christianity and Qur'an is Bible and Muslims aren't Christian. Islam is vastly more powerful force compared to Christianity and it plays a much bigger role globally in people's life than Christianity does (mainly because of different constructions of both faiths). So lets not waste our time in expecting this "change in Qur'an" to come. It would not come. You know it, I know it.

However, you can always come up with better/different understanding and interpretations of Qur'anic text And this is what should be focused. So I agree with you in that regard. However, Jihad isn't something problematic. You just need to teach Muslims how Jihad doesn't mean insurgencies. You get the drift..

Moreover, Turkish authorities didn't "reform" Hadiths as in they changed or cut-down from hadiths. They just picked hundreds of hadiths out of thousands of hadiths and compiled them in terms of relevance today (Hadiths dealing with education, finances, and stuff..and hadiths about horses, camels, tribal societies are in background (since they aren't much relevant now).

So a "reform" like Christianity (where, with due respect, entire religion was made a joke and was changed by humans..and hence nobody---not even christians--take it seriously no more) won't happen in Islam. And shouldn't.

Who said that Kuran was not changed? We know that Kuran was finished ~20 years after Mohammed's death. And as far as I know Mohammed was an illiterate. That means he never wrote that book. So, how can any one guarantee, that Koran was never changed and was written in Mohammed's words?

To verify your point of view we need the original and first one. Even this one is not a guarantee that the writer (not Mohammed) have used Mohammed's words one by one.

 

[AUz]

Who said that Kuran was not changed?

Pretty much all respected historians of classical Islam (including non-Muslim one's).

Again, I'm talking about scholars and not polemics.

We know that Kuran was finished ~20 years after Mohammed's death. And as far as I know Mohammed was an illiterate. That means he never wrote that book. So, how can any one guarantee, that Koran was never changed and was written in Mohammed's words?

No, it was "standardized" into a book during Uthman's time. Muhammad (SAW) would dictate Qur'an..as in, he'll tell what he 'received' from God and scribes would write it. And then Muhammad will double-check by asking multiple scribes what they wrote and what words they wrote.

The "standardized" Qur'an was compiled from these original manuscripts that Muhammad (SAW) himself dictated and over-looked the process. And no additions were allowed. For example, there is a famous event when Omar (another important figure in Islam) wrote about death penalty for adultery in Quranic manuscripts. Muhammad asked him "Have I told you to write it in Qur'an?" and he said "No, but I wrote it because you said this is Allah's command"...Muhammad replied yes it is, "but have I told you to write it in the Qur'an?" ...and at that point, Omar understood and took that part out of the Qur'an. So you see, there was a strict check-and-balances about what goes into the Qur'an. Quran of today is Muhammad's dictated work. All of it. It is just standardized by Uthman (That is, Uthman compiled the Qur'anic manuscripts in form of a universal book for non-Muslims).

Btw, the process of compilation was done by a committee of original scribes that wrote the Quran under Muhammad's supervision himself. And that Qur'an was later checked and verified by Abdullah Ibn e Masud (Who was regarded as the best Quranic teacher by none other than Muhammad himself).

Quran is the most well-preserved book from ancient history. For example, didn't they just found a freaking 1300 years old Quranic manuscripts after manuscripts...and all of them match exactly with today's Qur'an! (I read some of the manuscripts myself. They were exact same things that I used to read when I was in Pakistan as child lol).

....and then we have bible which have more differences in manuscripts than it has words and is totally unreliable as a 'message of historical jesus'...

To verify your point of view we need the original and first one. Even this one is not a guarantee that the writer (not Mohammed) have used Mohammed's words one by one.

Muhammad's words were used one by one since it was Muhammad himself who dictated, supervised, and double-checked the original subscriptions---and even corrected what goes in Quran and what doesn't (famous case of punishment of adultery for example).

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

And to be honest taking religion a bit less seriously is percisely what people need. No offense but society can't advance a centimeter with people saying "there's only one law and that is the lord's law", "human laws don't mean anything" and shit like that

Since I'm in the belief that God's Law is in fact Nature's Law (evolution, gravity...etc.) that statement would be true, since not one human Empire or Government has stood the test of time.

There is no Deism but they have the scientific method, Quantum mechanics, Ufology, and Scientology.....haters