Turkish "fighter" needs? What alternatives?

[YoungTurk01]

Turkey F-35 search term until a "fighter" needs? What alternatives?

 

[Fenasi Kerim]

None, wait for the f35, upgrade f16s, phase out f4s and work on the new Turkish fighter.

Once s400 kicks in and our own medium / short range air2air defences are rolled out we will have a very good defence capability.

 

[YoungTurk01]

http://www.kokpit.aero/hakan-kilic-sorular-2

Turkey F-35 search term until a "fighter" needs? What alternatives?

ORU 4-TÜRK HAVA KUVVETLERİNE F-35 GELENE KADAR ARA DÖNEMDE JF-17,JAS-39 GRIPEN, F-15 (İKİNCİ EL), RAFALE VEYA EF-2000 ALMAK MANTIKLI OLUR MU?

TF-X (MMU-Milli Muharip Uçak) kararı ve proje çalışmalarının başladığı son aylarda bu soruyu sıklıkla duyar olduk. Birçoklarına göre daha önceki bir makalede dikkat çektiğim gibi F-35 yeterli sayıya ulaşana kadar ara dönemde bir ilave uçağa ihtiyaç var (yazının linki aşağıda).

Hatta MMU üretilene kadar geçecek sürede hava üstünlüğü uçağı ihtiyacı var mı, yok mu tartışılmaya başlandı. Başlandı derken tabi ki ulusal basında ve köşe yazılarında değil. Son köşe yazısını okuduğumda hala “Korkut Hava Savunma Sistemi Atom bombasını vurabilir mi, vurmaz mı” onu tartışıyorlardı. Daha çok uzman sosyal medya hesapları, savunma forumları ve konuya vakıf veya sektördeki asker/sivil dar kamuoyu arasında. Ben ise konuyu medyaya taşıyarak tartışmaya açmak istiyorum.

15 Temmuz sonrası ortaya çıkan pilot ihtiyacı ve zafiyeti bir yana, F-4E 2020 Phantom/Terminatör’ler servis dışı kalınca hava kuvvetlerinde çift motorlu savaş uçağı kalmamış olacak. (F-35 de tek motorlu)

Hava kuvvetleri İsrail’den alınan Popeye gibi büyük ve ağır seyir füzelerini kullanma kabiliyetini kaybedecek. Çünkü F-16 veya F-35 taşıyamıyor. Popeye’yi örnek olması için söylüyorum. Tabi ki uçak seçimi veya envanter kararı tek bir füze için yapılmaz. SOM seyir füzemizin yerli motor ile menzilini uzatma çalışmaları devam ederken diğer yandan envanterde kaç tane Popeye kaldığını ve bunların raf ömürlerinin F-4E 2020’ler kalkana kadar bitip-bitmeyeceğini de bilmiyorum. En fazla onlarla ifade edilen rakamlardadır diye tahmin ediyorum.

 

[YoungTurk01]

http://www.kokpit.aero/hakan-kilic-sorular-2


ORU 4-TÜRK HAVA KUVVETLERİNE F-35 GELENE KADAR ARA DÖNEMDE JF-17,JAS-39 GRIPEN, F-15 (İKİNCİ EL), RAFALE VEYA EF-2000 ALMAK MANTIKLI OLUR MU?

TF-X (MMU-Milli Muharip Uçak) kararı ve proje çalışmalarının başladığı son aylarda bu soruyu sıklıkla duyar olduk. Birçoklarına göre daha önceki bir makalede dikkat çektiğim gibi F-35 yeterli sayıya ulaşana kadar ara dönemde bir ilave uçağa ihtiyaç var (yazının linki aşağıda).

Hatta MMU üretilene kadar geçecek sürede hava üstünlüğü uçağı ihtiyacı var mı, yok mu tartışılmaya başlandı. Başlandı derken tabi ki ulusal basında ve köşe yazılarında değil. Son köşe yazısını okuduğumda hala “Korkut Hava Savunma Sistemi Atom bombasını vurabilir mi, vurmaz mı” onu tartışıyorlardı. Daha çok uzman sosyal medya hesapları, savunma forumları ve konuya vakıf veya sektördeki asker/sivil dar kamuoyu arasında. Ben ise konuyu medyaya taşıyarak tartışmaya açmak istiyorum.

15 Temmuz sonrası ortaya çıkan pilot ihtiyacı ve zafiyeti bir yana, F-4E 2020 Phantom/Terminatör’ler servis dışı kalınca hava kuvvetlerinde çift motorlu savaş uçağı kalmamış olacak. (F-35 de tek motorlu)

Hava kuvvetleri İsrail’den alınan Popeye gibi büyük ve ağır seyir füzelerini kullanma kabiliyetini kaybedecek. Çünkü F-16 veya F-35 taşıyamıyor. Popeye’yi örnek olması için söylüyorum. Tabi ki uçak seçimi veya envanter kararı tek bir füze için yapılmaz. SOM seyir füzemizin yerli motor ile menzilini uzatma çalışmaları devam ederken diğer yandan envanterde kaç tane Popeye kaldığını ve bunların raf ömürlerinin F-4E 2020’ler kalkana kadar bitip-bitmeyeceğini de bilmiyorum. En fazla onlarla ifade edilen rakamlardadır diye tahmin ediyorum.

Atalay ne dusunuyorsun bu konuda?

 

[Mr.Department]

bir ilave uçağa ihtiyaç var

Twin engine increases operation range for sure.
But there are no many alternatives to buy adhoc and who will deliver ?

I could refer to the links I post. In short there was a heavy discussion in Suisse.
Buying 22 Gripen E or Eurofighter ? Swedish offer for the Gripen E was 22 planes for 3.2 Billion SFR.
Germany offered 33 Occasion Fighter used but in excellent status for the same price.


https://www.offiziere.ch/?p=9358

https://web.archive.org/web/20131029063458/http://www.sonntagonline.ch:80/ressort/aktuell/2479/

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

JF-17s with extensive Turkish inputs looks like rational. Moreover, it may work as a valuable work bench to test the "exotic" ideas related to the 5th gen projects. Buying JFs will pave the way for more Pak involvement in terms of purchase of the Turkish products. Furthermore, Pak trainers will be readily available to teach their tricks with weapons, tactics etc. Joint R&D is another venue. It's a win-win for both the parties!!!

 

[Mr.Department]

JF-17s with extensive Turkish inputs looks like rational

Brother we need a long range fighter just now. Ok, we have tankers but a deep strike can only be done with a twin engine jet. I guess our F-4 E 2020 are not state of the art and not suited for deep strike against a hostile country with good AD.
My post referred to an offer from Germany 2012 for Switzerland and is for sure no more valid and Germans wouldn't deliver a needle to Turkey. Today they cancelled 4.3 Billion Euro adaption grant which was planned to be paid within the next 2 years.

Very interesting :
https://www.wired.com/2016/05/israel-can-customize-americas-f-35-least-now/

 

[YoungTurk01]

JF-17s with extensive Turkish inputs looks like rational. Moreover, it may work as a valuable work bench to test the "exotic" ideas related to the 5th gen projects. Buying JFs will pave the way for more Pak involvement in terms of purchase of the Turkish products. Furthermore, Pak trainers will be readily available to teach their tricks with weapons, tactics etc. Joint R&D is another venue. It's a win-win for both the parties!!!

Thanks the article were about twin engine. What are the options for twin engine aircraft would fit our air force to replace phantom s. Thank you.

So many experts against Russian tech due to weapon system modification and our techs not being familiar with Russian or Chinese system, therefore to reduce over all cost of twin engine fighter which make sense to buy westerners crafts.

 

[TheMightyBender]

I think we need to first ponder hard on whether we are going to get f35s or not. Based on the mood of us Congress in the past decade, they may block the sales altogether or even take the cowards way and delay the delivery indefinitely without openly stating their blockade.

Scenario1: We come to conclusion that we are definitely getting f35s: In this scenario I think we dont need to buy anything. What we have is more than enough. I want to remind you that India is considering buying f16s ANEW! If India thinks f16 is good for another 30 years, 250 of it will definitely be good for us. I know that our f16s are old and need replacements frequently, but still it is better than buying new fighters.
When it comes to f4s I dont think we even use them that much anymore. Tactics of the battleground have changed and since our main targets are terrorist organizations I think drones have (or will, in the near future) replaced the f4s already.

Scenario 2: We come to the conclusion that we are not getting any f35s: in this scenario I would prefer we buy some Harriers for use on our LHD. But still, going for an air superiority fighter when we are already working on the TFX seems too much.

 

[Cookie Monster]

JF-17s with extensive Turkish inputs looks like rational. Moreover, it may work as a valuable work bench to test the "exotic" ideas related to the 5th gen projects. Buying JFs will pave the way for more Pak involvement in terms of purchase of the Turkish products. Furthermore, Pak trainers will be readily available to teach their tricks with weapons, tactics etc. Joint R&D is another venue. It's a win-win for both the parties!!!

Buying JF17s wouldn't give a huge capability boost to Turkey bcuz Turkish F16s are advanced. In addition Turkey isn't as susceptible to sanctions as Pak right now to worry about spare parts or something. Nor does Turkey has too many legacy fighters to replace. Also F35s are expensive and developing a 5th gen platform(TFX) can also be expensive. So use that money wisely.

While I would love to see the two brother countries join hands and see JF17 in numbers with Turkish flag but I also have to be realistic. There's only so much money Turkey can spend for its defense. That money would be best used for the TFX program instead of purchasing JF17. The Turkish F16s would last u another 15 years. By that time TFX can be ready for induction. Together with F35 and TFX, Turkish AF can do a high/low mix. Though due to the price of F35...idk which one would be high and which one would be low.

The best option would be if there's some cooperation between Turkey and Pak while both are developing their 5th gen platforms.

 

[YoungTurk01]

Buying JF17s wouldn't give a huge capability boost to Turkey bcuz Turkish F16s are advanced. In addition Turkey isn't as susceptible to sanctions as Pak right now to worry about spare parts or something. Nor does Turkey has too many legacy fighters to replace. Also F35s are expensive and developing a 5th gen platform(TFX) can also be expensive. So use that money wisely.

While I would love to see the two brother countries join hands and see JF17 in numbers with Turkish flag but I also have to be realistic. There's only so much money Turkey can spend for its defense. That money would be best used for the TFX program instead of purchasing JF17. The Turkish F16s would last u another 15 years. By that time TFX can be ready for induction. Together with F35 and TFX, Turkish AF can do a high/low mix. Though due to the price of F35...idk which one would be high and which one would be low.

The best option would be if there's some cooperation between Turkey and Pak while both are developing their 5th gen platforms.

Thank you.

I think we need to first ponder hard on whether we are going to get f35s or not. Based on the mood of us Congress in the past decade, they may block the sales altogether or even take the cowards way and delay the delivery indefinitely without openly stating their blockade.

Scenario1: We come to conclusion that we are definitely getting f35s: In this scenario I think we dont need to buy anything. What we have is more than enough. I want to remind you that India is considering buying f16s ANEW! If India thinks f16 is good for another 30 years, 250 of it will definitely be good for us. I know that our f16s are old and need replacements frequently, but still it is better than buying new fighters.
When it comes to f4s I dont think we even use them that much anymore. Tactics of the battleground have changed and since our main targets are terrorist organizations I think drones have (or will, in the near future) replaced the f4s already.

Scenario 2: We come to the conclusion that we are not getting any f35s: in this scenario I would prefer we buy some Harriers for use on our LHD. But still, going for an air superiority fighter when we are already working on the TFX seems too much.

Thank you.

If we r going spent that money to buy twin engine crafts my choice is AIDC F-CK-1 Ching Kuo USA/Taiwan, 4 th gen with low engine power which could be upgraded and the avionics.
I prefer not to pay a penny to any EU or US companies.

F-CK-1 Ching Kuo

F-CK-1 Ching Kuo

Buying JF17s wouldn't give a huge capability boost to Turkey bcuz Turkish F16s are advanced. In addition Turkey isn't as susceptible to sanctions as Pak right now to worry about spare parts or something. Nor does Turkey has too many legacy fighters to replace. Also F35s are expensive and developing a 5th gen platform(TFX) can also be expensive. So use that money wisely.

While I would love to see the two brother countries join hands and see JF17 in numbers with Turkish flag but I also have to be realistic. There's only so much money Turkey can spend for its defense. That money would be best used for the TFX program instead of purchasing JF17. The Turkish F16s would last u another 15 years. By that time TFX can be ready for induction. Together with F35 and TFX, Turkish AF can do a high/low mix. Though due to the price of F35...idk which one would be high and which one would be low.

The best option would be if there's some cooperation between Turkey and Pak while both are developing their 5th gen platforms.

Buying JF17s wouldn't give a huge capability boost to Turkey bcuz Turkish F16s are advanced. In addition Turkey isn't as susceptible to sanctions as Pak right now to worry about spare parts or something. Nor does Turkey has too many legacy fighters to replace. Also F35s are expensive and developing a 5th gen platform(TFX) can also be expensive. So use that money wisely.

While I would love to see the two brother countries join hands and see JF17 in numbers with Turkish flag but I also have to be realistic. There's only so much money Turkey can spend for its defense. That money would be best used for the TFX program instead of purchasing JF17. The Turkish F16s would last u another 15 years. By that time TFX can be ready for induction. Together with F35 and TFX, Turkish AF can do a high/low mix. Though due to the price of F35...idk which one would be high and which one would be low.

The best option would be if there's some cooperation between Turkey and Pak while both are developing their 5th gen platforms.

I agree I wish we could work on an platform together which even that could cargo airplane etc. insallah in future.

 

[YoungTurk01]

http://www.kokpit.aero/turkiye-sukhoi-alir-mi

 

[JKangoroo]

Buying JF17s wouldn't give a huge capability boost to Turkey bcuz Turkish F16s are advanced. In addition Turkey isn't as susceptible to sanctions as Pak right now to worry about spare parts or something. Nor does Turkey has too many legacy fighters to replace. Also F35s are expensive and developing a 5th gen platform(TFX) can also be expensive. So use that money wisely.

While I would love to see the two brother countries join hands and see JF17 in numbers with Turkish flag but I also have to be realistic. There's only so much money Turkey can spend for its defense. That money would be best used for the TFX program instead of purchasing JF17. The Turkish F16s would last u another 15 years. By that time TFX can be ready for induction. Together with F35 and TFX, Turkish AF can do a high/low mix. Though due to the price of F35...idk which one would be high and which one would be low.

The best option would be if there's some cooperation between Turkey and Pak while both are developing their 5th gen platforms.

Pakistan is not developing any platform of a 5th Generation System!

 

[Rizwan Alam]

I am no defense expert but I do not see F-35 coming. Unless and until I see F-35 in Turkey's flag, I am skeptical.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

F-35s are coming for sure. But I'm not convinced that's necessarily a good thing as these planes are heavily networked and almost constantly connected to Lockheed Martin servers for software updates, bug fixes, feature upgrades, etc through the ALIS system. Turkey won't be inspecting every line of code that's changed and/or added and in my opinion this creates a bigger security risk than not having any F-35s in the first place.