Turkish Engine Programs

[mehmeTcc]

Ok, I'll bite.

It is not wise to talk about individuals, engineers don't build iPhones, teams do. Engineering is a broad concept where there are multiple internal and external stakeholders and teams scale up according to aforementioned actors' needs; every engineering team can build an iPhone, given that they have sufficient means necessary for such a project. Not every team wants that though, because companies want to fill certain niches, that is why Huawei is cheaper and arguably less reliable compared to an Apple product. Companies balance these issues to find the product that would maximize their profits, as Huawei targets lower end of the market whereas Apple target premium segment. It is not that Huawei can't make an iPhone, they most certainly can; they just don't want to because that is a business niche they don't want to fill. No team wakes up one morning and decides to make an iPhone, there is a long list of todos before that; requirements elicitation, quality assurance, feasibility studies, definition of concepts etc.

Knowledge accumulation in an engineering project is very-well defined. In an engineering team engineers are divided into modular groups, usually a systems engineer lead these groups, and people are ranked by their respective fields and their years of experience. If the company decides individuals involved in the project doesn't have the required expertise in a given subject, they either recruit or find a consulting firm; or can buy another company if they are able. As we are in this forum, I can give several examples from our defense industry, like TUSAŞ collaborating with Saab and Havelsan's acquisition of Quantum3D. You don't (and can't, efficiently) accumulate, simulate or generate the data that companies like Boeing and BAe have. It is possible, but it would be more time-consuming than you can ever imagine, and it is just not feasible as companies try to maximize the output (not input). That is why no smartphone company starts from iPhone 1, and sure enough no aviation company makes Me-226s anymore. If you are really concerned about the topic, you can search for how Chinese accumulated know-how with the help of Russians or how Brazil started their aviation industry. Spoiler alert, none of these countries started by making Klimov VK-1s. BTW, I should also add that the latest generation of jet engines are completely different compared to their predecessors, the metallurgy of such engines for instance opened new research areas in material science; hence why nobody wants to do VK-1s anymore to generate "know-how".

Furthermore to the paragraph above, I just want to remind that what we are basically arguing about is making a first-generation Jet fighter here.

 

[SgtGungHo]

every engineering team can build an iPhone, given that they have sufficient means necessary for such a project

'Sufficient means' - that's the point every group of engineers doesn't have sufficient means, including relevant data, knowledge and know hows. They can't just carbon-copy a iPhone 11 even if they were given the same parts and the same assembly plant.

Companies balance these issues to find the product that would maximize their profits

That's up the board to decides, not up to engineers to decide. I can talk to my colleagues or my supervisor about my concern over the project, but it is up to the board to decide whether our end product would be profitable in the future. Even then, it is irrelevant. Even if the firm believes they could build a iPhone knockoff and makes decent money out of it, engineers simply can't do it without data.

If the company decides individuals involved in the project doesn't have the required expertise in a given subject, they either recruit or find a consulting firm; or can buy another company if they are able..You don't (and can't, efficiently) accumulate, simulate or generate the data that companies like Boeing and BAe have.

This is the heart of the problem, isn't it? Turkish companies do not have much expertise, data and know-hows in the field, comparing with established companies such as GE, P&W and RR. Turkey can't acquire a turbofans company nor recruit the entire team from GE to get years of data from them.

Chinese accumulated know-how with the help of Russians or how Brazil started their aviation industry. Spoiler alert, none of these countries started by making Klimov VK-1s.

Mate, exactly that's the point. Who is going to be Russia to Turkey? Even China, after all those decades of coaching from Russia and reverse engineering, has failed to produce reliable turbofans engines that are comparable with turbofans engine from the West. Embraer started decades ago and started as a humble manufacturer with knock-down kits. Without assistance, experience, data and know-hows, Turkey is far behind of them. If you have non of them, you may well as start from something old as Klimov VK-1s. I mean I am sure at least almost the half of countries in the world can't replicate the engine if they were given all the blueprints.

BTW, I should also add that the latest generation of jet engines are completely different compared to their predecessors, the metallurgy of such engines for instance opened new research areas in material science; hence why nobody wants to do VK-1s anymore to generate "know-how".

Turbofans engine has certainly progressed a lot, but they are not completely different in basic structure. Yes, the metallurgy has always been one of the most challenging part. How can you know what kind of alloy should be used in every different part of high-pass turbofans engine without data? How can you design & manufacture components of engine core if you don't have expertise and know-hows? You can't.

Furthermore to the paragraph above, I just want to remind that what we are basically arguing about is making a first-generation Jet fighter here.

Really, I thought whether it is reasonable for people to doubt industrial capability of Turkish companies which have not built a mass-produced fighter jet to design & manufacture a fifth gen. fighter jet with a fully domestic turbofans engine.

Btw, I am sure you are aware that neither GE or RR will fully transfer their engine core technologies and relevant data to Turkish companies. They invested billions and decades of work into those engines. There is no shortcut for turbofans engine technology. You can't just buy a company (the most countries would block the sales because of its strategic importance) nor recruit a few guys to develop one.

 

[mehmeTcc]

I can argue but I really don't think you would still get my point. My arguments from the previous post still holds.

I do not intend to further this discussion.

 

[-SINAN-]

There are hundreds of companies (subcontractors and partners) have 'worked with GE and LM for decades' across the world and I am not sure how many of them actually can design & manufacture airbreathing jet engines that are comparable with GE engines or design & manufacture a fighter jet comparable with LM's products.

Turkey doesn't have the aerospace & airbreathing jet engine industry comparable with other developed countries such as Japan which can design & manufacture them. It is just the fact. I commend Turkey of attempting to build an industry and its success, but that's the reality.

This is why people have reasonable doubt over some of Turkey's aviation & engine programs. I am not saying the programs are bound to fail nor they are not possible at all, but I would agree with critics that the programs are a bit too ambitious.

Advanced engineering & manufacturing require accumulated data, know-hows and experience. Aerospace & airbreathing jet engine engineering is one of fields that demand decades of intense and accumulative res

This is the heart of the problem, isn't it? Turkish companies do not have much expertise, data and know-hows in the field, comparing with established companies such as GE, P&W and RR. Turkey can't acquire a turbofans company nor recruit the entire team from GE to get years of data from them.

Mate, exactly that's the point. Who is going to be Russia to Turkey? Even China, after all those decades of coaching from Russia and reverse engineering, has failed to produce reliable turbofans engines that are comparable with turbofans engine from the West. Embraer started decades ago and started as a humble manufacturer with knock-down kits. Without assistance, experience, data and know-hows, Turkey is far behind of them. If you have non of them, you may well as start from something old as Klimov VK-1s. I mean I am sure at least almost the half of countries in the world can't replicate the engine if they were given all the blueprints.

Really, I thought whether it is reasonable for people to doubt industrial capability of Turkish companies which have not built a mass-produced fighter jet to design & manufacture a fifth gen. fighter jet with a fully domestic turbofans engine.

Btw, I am sure you are aware that neither GE or RR will fully transfer their engine core technologies and relevant data to Turkish companies. They invested billions and decades of work into those engines. There is no shortcut for turbofans engine technology. You can't just buy a company (the most countries would block the sales because of its strategic importance) nor recruit a few guys to develop one.

Bro, i totally understand you. Common knowledge says there are 3 things in the world being seen as the pinnacle of engineering; Cryogenic Rocket Engine, Nuclear Explosion Device and TurboFan Jet Engine.

There are only a handful of producers GE and RR are the best and the most successful ones. And they are producing engines for decades. Metallurgy, Engineering Calculations, Production Methods all of these are very hard when it comes to jet engines, right?

5 years ago, i was thinking exactly like you. Turkey a country who has near to zero experience with producing jet engines can produce a jet engine from scratch, it is impossible, a pipe dream.

Then how can you possibly explain this with our common knowledge.

As i said before in 2015 project has been inked by various universities (over 15 if don't remember wrong) and they got in contact with 600 Turkish companies to be sub-contractors for supplying parts,materials.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-engine-programs.300889/page-18#post-6918890

In 3 years we had a working Turboshaft engine. Meaning all critical components like compressor blades, Turbine blades, Fan blades, Combustion Chamber have been designed (strength simulations, metallurgy library creation, fluid dynamic simulations, determining of production methods etc...) and build them successfully.

Well, i have some theories how TEI become successful but i kind of still agree with you that you can't explain this success with our common knowledge.

I also want to give you 2 info about this engine.
1- While designing this engine of course they used some core principals regarding turboshaft engines. While doing simulations they have seen that they can produce same power output with using with a single less stage in compressor in comparison to it's equivalent engines. So they designed it like that at seen the same power out making it better to it's equivalents in terms of weight to thrust ratio.

2-Again while designing they have calculated that instead of producing fan blades from single crystal they can produce the fan blades with additive technology (3d printing) and still get %98 endurance of a single crystal fan. By doing this they speed up the production process and drop the overall cost of production.

P.S: TEI also achieved the technology to produce single crystal fan blades prior to project.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/can-turkey-built-anjet-engine.300426/page-2#post-6835218

 

[neosinan]

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I have to tell you that I doubt Turkey is even in a position of Japan in their 1960s when they flew a domestic jet engine powered mass-manufactured trainer by Fuji. By the way, Fuji is Subaru and the company roots can be traced back to the aircraft company during the World War II.

That's about 50+ something years ago and a few generation before the fifth gen fighter jet and it was done by companies that had at least years of expertise in 1960s.

It took a few decades of accumulated data, expertise in engineering and knowledge for Japan to fly a Kawasaki T-4 then another few years to fly a Mitsubishi F-2, a 4th gen fighter jet. As far as I concern, Turkey has not even achieved that. Yet, Turkey wants to build a 5th gen fighter jet straight away and develop accommodating turbofans engine as well.

This is why people have reasonable doubt over some of Turkey's aviation & engine programs. I am not saying the programs are bound to fail nor they are not possible at all, but I would agree with critics that the programs are a bit too ambitious.

By the way, the Japanese domestic turboshaft engine that was suggested along with Japanese-designed AH-2 by Kawasaki had an output of 1300sph if I remember correctly. previously Mitsubishi built a 890sph turboshaft engine for OH-1 Ninja. And Turkish company is aspiring to develop a 1400sph. You see, people are rightfully to be skeptical, but Turkey could prove them wrong.

I also have my doubts about capabilities of End product/TFX And It is true that Japanese Aviation Industry has been developing Aircraft since 1930s. No realistic person say Turkish aviation is comparable to Japanese one. But There is acceptable Risk/chance for TFX project, We will wait and see the End Result.

Secondly, Since Turboshaft engine design dates back to 40s This isn't new tech. And Any large company can design 890 shp or 1400 shp engine with usable reliability. But thrust to weight ratio is the big indicator for Engines to look for. If Your T/W ratio isn't up to modern standards, It wont be commercially viable product. That is the thing for ts1400, There is no guarantee that US will continue delivering LHTEC T800. Even Having Overall lesser Engine is better than No engine for Turkey. But that isn't the case for Japan.

 

[Ansu fati]

Japan has bad history against both Russia and China(I won’t comment about North Korea South Korea and Taiwan since they are seen as US allies)
US doesn’t have plans to create ethnostate through terror in Japan
Japan although undoubtedly very important country for US against east chinese sea still cannot be compared with Turkey and its possible(apparently trump administration wants to improve relations we will see what will happen if trump gets re-elected) influence in Europe Asia and Africa that MIGHT won’t be compatible with american worldview
In short Japan’s interests completely overlap with US that’s why we heard various reports about LM cooperation with japanese 5th gen fighter some articles even claimed that US wants to sell sensitive F-22 technology (we are talking about the jet that was banned for export because it is allegedly considered the best and game changer versus China and Russia)...
I would personally have no problems if TF-X incorporates a lot of foreign(western/US) critical technology if US treated Turkey the same as they do with Japan/S.Korea
Of course Japan has better aerospace industry when it comes to fighter jets after all Japan was major player in WW2 and definitely they maintained that knowledge post-WW2 but you should visit thread made by @ÇölKaplanı about turkish made aircrafts before Turkey’s entry in NATO in 1952(this was directly related to crazy soviet demand regarding turkish straits)
While Japan doesn’t need to produce PGMs air launched cruise missiles and similar weapons because it has already available from US on the other side Turkey was forced to develop own variants because americans thought if we stop exporting weapons to turks they will cave and follow our foreign policy even if these policies are in total opposition to turkish national interests they recently resumed again exporting JDAM after turkish variants entered into mass production though I doubt that Turkey will order any of it
Same thing will happen with the helicopter engine until it’s not ready they will continue ignoring turkish requests but as soon turkish version is ready they will start once again offering their engine but it will be in vain they will not only lose big costumer but also the extortion tool
There are similarities between these two states as both of them cooperated with leading american defense companies in all fields including production of F-16s yet there is one huge difference Turkey is trying to nationalize as much as possible of the defense industry due to EXISTENTIAL FEARS while Japan is focusing ONLY on fighter jet with generous help from americans and much bigger budget

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1260514499351711745

Testing TEI turbo diesel on one of the Akinci

 

[Oublious]

Nobody cares about Japan and ther capabilities, comparing Turkey with another country and trying to say you can not build a engine because you don't have aerospace tech industry.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Then how can you possibly explain this with our common knowledge.

Any company can show off a demonstrator that cannot be used for real-world applications. The question whether the final product is reliable, durable and serviceable. The metallurgy has been one of the hard parts where you need to test & collect data by using various alloy or ceramic for each component especially blades and engine core. Even if you have data for composition, the tricky part is that you have to figure out how to set up a plant to manufacture the parts with consistent quality control.

As i said before in 2015 project has been inked by various universities (over 15 if don't remember wrong) and they got in contact with 600 Turkish companies to be sub-contractors for supplying parts,materials.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-engine-programs.300889/page-18#post-6918890

In 3 years we had a working Turboshaft engine. Meaning all critical components like compressor blades, Turbine blades, Fan blades, Combustion Chamber have been designed (strength simulations, metallurgy library creation, fluid dynamic simulations, determining of production methods etc...) and build them successfully.

Again, I don't want to be nasty or anything, but that's not a working Turboshaft engine, but a pre-prototype. it doesn't matter how many universities & companies are involved. I appreciate that they actually go through every parts of airbreathing jet engine, but all of them have almost zero experience in designing a military-grade turbofans & turboshaft engine from scratch. Designing & manufacturing of reliable, durable and serviceable airbreathing jet engine needs a lot of time, money, data and expertise - more than you have shown.

I also want to give you 2 info about this engine.
1- While designing this engine of course they used some core principals regarding turboshaft engines. While doing simulations they have seen that they can produce same power output with using with a single less stage in compressor in comparison to it's equivalent engines. So they designed it like that at seen the same power out making it better to it's equivalents in terms of weight to thrust ratio.

2-Again while designing they have calculated that instead of producing fan blades from single crystal they can produce the fan blades with additive technology (3d printing) and still get %98 endurance of a single crystal fan. By doing this they speed up the production process and drop the overall cost of production.

P.S: TEI also achieved the technology to produce single crystal fan blades prior to project.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/can-turkey-built-anjet-engine.300426/page-2#post-6835218

"they have seen that they can produce same power output with using with a single less stage in compressor in comparison to it's equivalent engines" this is where it sounds very suspicious. What equivalent engines? If it is LHTEC 800 which has a two stage compressor driven by a two stage turbine, then it could potentially be a problem. Engineers at RR and Honeywell aren't fools. They don't want to add unnecessary stage in their engine that might compromise not only thrust-weight ratio, but also general durability. This is where years of accumulated data come in handy. They know from their experience and data it won't work.

Patented turbine blade materials are notoriously difficult to copy. "Again while designing they have calculated that instead of producing fan blades from single crystal they can produce the fan blades with additive technology (3d printing) and still get 98% endurance of a single crystal fan." Again, it sounds like they estimated the numbers based on theoretical estimate or small scale testing in a lab, but not from actual years of testing, not only in a lab, but also a prototype stage and actual applications. This is why accumulated data is so crucial.

I am not sure what material they are using (should be either Ni-based alloy or CMC), but there is a flood of research papers on that subject and many of them have failed to replace industrial standards for various reasons. In other words, scientists and engineers in other countries are not idiots. If they can't do it, it would be very difficult for Turkey, logically. For instance, China & Russia have decades of experience in this field, yet all of them have nearly failed to match quality from America.

 

[UkroTurk]

Some people carry coals to Newcastle

TEI Delivers First T700-GE-701D Engines for T70
http://en.c4defence.com/Archive/tei-delivers-first-t700ge701d-engines-for-t70/7939/1

TS1400 Turboshaft Engine for the T625 Helicopter
https://www.aviationturkey.com/en/content/ts1400-turboshaft-engine-for-the-t625-helicopter-14

If my grandmother sucks eggs, was it I who taught her?"

 

[-SINAN-]

Any company can show off a demonstrator that cannot be used for real-world applications. The question whether the final product is reliable, durable and serviceable. The metallurgy has been one of the hard parts where you need to test & collect data by using various alloy or ceramic for each component especially blades and engine core. Even if you have data for composition, the tricky part is that you have to figure out how to set up a plant to manufacture the parts with consistent quality control.



Again, I don't want to be nasty or anything, but that's not a working Turboshaft engine, but a pre-prototype. it doesn't matter how many universities & companies are involved. I appreciate that they actually go through every parts of airbreathing jet engine, but all of them have almost zero experience in designing a military-grade turbofans & turboshaft engine from scratch. Designing & manufacturing of reliable, durable and serviceable airbreathing jet engine needs a lot of time, money, data and expertise - more than you have shown.



"they have seen that they can produce same power output with using with a single less stage in compressor in comparison to it's equivalent engines" this is where it sounds very suspicious. What equivalent engines? If it is LHTEC 800 which has a two stage compressor driven by a two stage turbine, then it could potentially be a problem. Engineers at RR and Honeywell aren't fools. They don't want to add unnecessary stage in their engine that might compromise not only thrust-weight ratio, but also general durability. This is where years of accumulated data come in handy. They know from their experience and data it won't work.

Patented turbine blade materials are notoriously difficult to copy. "Again while designing they have calculated that instead of producing fan blades from single crystal they can produce the fan blades with additive technology (3d printing) and still get 98% endurance of a single crystal fan." Again, it sounds like they estimated the numbers based on theoretical estimate or small scale testing in a lab, but not from actual years of testing, not only in a lab, but also a prototype stage and actual applications. This is why accumulated data is so crucial.

I am not sure what material they are using (should be either Ni-based alloy or CMC), but there is a flood of research papers on that subject and many of them have failed to replace industrial standards for various reasons. In other words, scientists and engineers in other countries are not idiots. If they can't do it, it would be very difficult for Turkey, logically. For instance, China & Russia have decades of experience in this field, yet all of them have nearly failed to match quality from America.

Than all we can do is to lean back and wait till this engine to power our helicopters. Than we can agree on TEI managed to build a Turbofan engine. We just a have to wait for a couple of years.

Also, welcome to the forum, hope you will stick around.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Than all we can do is to lean back and wait till this engine to power our helicopters. Than we can agree on TEI managed to build a Turbofan engine. We just a have to wait for a couple of years.

Also, welcome to the forum, hope you will stick around.

Cheers, mate. As a techie, I just find those developments fascinating and want to share my thought. No ill-feeling.

 

[Saithan]

I may be misunderstanding, but we're on a journey so it's given we don't have a jet mounted engine yet.

We may not have similar experience as RR or GE as of yet, but that doesn't mean we don't have an opportunity to get some necessary knowhow from people who does.

I imagine https://defence-blog.com/news/sierra-nevada-corporation-shares-video-of-hypersonic-engine-test.html wouldn't mind giving consultancy or telling us how to do some things.

 

[-SINAN-]

I may be misunderstanding, but we're on a journey so it's given we don't have a jet mounted engine yet.

We may not have similar experience as RR or GE as of yet, but that doesn't mean we don't have an opportunity to get some necessary knowhow from people who does.

I imagine https://defence-blog.com/news/sierra-nevada-corporation-shares-video-of-hypersonic-engine-test.html wouldn't mind giving consultancy or telling us how to do some things.

You can watch this presentation to see general abilities of TEI by Faruk Akşit. It's much better than what people thinks of.

 

[Yatağanlı]

Are these engines suitable for TB2 Bayraktar? Or is there another project for that?