Turkish Aviation Programs

[AlohanAkua]

F-35 with HGK and SOM-J

https://twitter.com/x/status/1009824882627104770

https://twitter.com/x/status/1009820719742676992

A deal is a deal, no doubt. But the source for the recent headaches about F 35 handover can be still be understood (Courtesy of CNN):

"...a US defense official told CNN that the concern is that the Russian-made S-400, particularly if it's plugged into Turkey's integrated air defense system, could gather technical data on the F-35's capabilities and that critical information could be passed to Moscow either intentionally or unintentionally through a back door in the Russian designed system."

Does anyone know if Washington has received assurances that Ankara is taking definite steps to protect against such a possibility? Because I do firmly believe that leaking such data is something the overwhelming majority of Turks do not want (goes against self interest).

P.S. Congrats Turkey! In spite of all the grief thrown at the F 35 in the past (w/ still a few issues left to iron out), its turning out to be a fine jet, and increasingly acknowledged as such

 

[-------]

A deal is a deal, no doubt. But the source for the recent headaches about F 35 handover can be still be understood (Courtesy of CNN):

"...a US defense official told CNN that the concern is that the Russian-made S-400, particularly if it's plugged into Turkey's integrated air defense system, could gather technical data on the F-35's capabilities and that critical information could be passed to Moscow either intentionally or unintentionally through a back door in the Russian designed system."

Does anyone know if Washington has received assurances that Ankara is taking definite steps to protect against such a possibility? Because I do firmly believe that leaking such data is something the overwhelming majority of Turks do not want (goes against self interest).

P.S. Congrats Turkey! In spite of all the grief thrown at the F 35 in the past (w/ still a few issues left to iron out), its turning out to be a fine jet, and increasingly acknowledged as such

Well lets see;

=================

SEC. 1269. REMOVAL OF TURKEY FROM THE F–35 PROGRAM.

(a) Findings.—Congress makes the following findings:

(1) The Government of the Republic of Turkey continues to unlawfully and wrongfully detain Andrew Brunson, a United States citizen, and continues to deny Mr. Brunson due process rights consistent with international norms.

(2) The Government of the Republic of Turkey has wrongly charged Andrew Brunsonwith belonging to a terrorist organization and engaging in terrorist activities.

(3) The Government of the Republic of Turkey, including the senior leadership of the government, bears direct responsibility for the health and safety of Andrew Brunsonwhile he remains in the custody of the Government of the Republic of Turkey.

(4) Congress will not tolerate any foreign government’s efforts to use United States citizens for political leverage.

(5) President Erdogan, along with other senior officials of the Government of the Republic of Turkey, have publicly and repeatedly stated the intention of the Government of the Republic of Turkey to purchase the S–400 system from Russia, an act that is sanctionable under current United States law.

(6) Any effort by the Government of the Republic of Turkey to further enhance their relationship with Russia will degrade the general security of the NATO alliance, and NATO member countries, and degrade interoperability of the alliance.

(b) Report.—The Secretary of Defense shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees a plan to remove the Government of the Republic of Turkey from participation in the F–35 program, to include industrial and military aspects of the program. The plan shall include:

(1) steps required to unwind industrial participation of Turkish industry in the manufacturing and assembly of the F–35 program;

(2) costs associated with replacing tooling and other manufacturing materials held by Turkish industry;

(3) timelines associated with the removal of the Government of the Republic of Turkey and Turkish industry from participation in the F–35 program, so as to cause the least impact on the remaining international program partners; and

(4) steps required to prohibit the transfer of any F–35 aircraft currently owned and operated, by the Government of the Republic of Turkey, from the territory of the United States.

(c) Limitation On The Transfer Of The F–35 To Turkey.—The Department of Defense may not transfer the title for any F–35 aircraft to the Government of the Republic of Turkey, until such time as the report identified in subsection (b) has been submitted.

(d) Appropriate Congressional Committees Defined.—In this section, the term “appropriate congressional committees” means—

(1) the congressional defense committees; and

(2) the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives.

---
SEC. 6204. CLARIFICATION OF LIMITATION ON THE TRANSFER OF THE F–35 TO TURKEY.
The limitation on the transfer of the F–35 to Turkey in section 1269(c) shall apply to the transfer or delivery of that aircraft to Turkey rather than to the transfer of title for that aircraft to Turkey.

=================

Seems US is more concerned with Andrew Brunson.

 

[AlohanAkua]

Well lets see;

=================

SEC. 1269. REMOVAL OF TURKEY FROM THE F–35 PROGRAM.

(a) Findings.—Congress makes the following findings:

(1) The Government of the Republic of Turkey continues to unlawfully and wrongfully detain Andrew Brunson, a United States citizen, and continues to deny Mr. Brunson due process rights consistent with international norms.

(2) The Government of the Republic of Turkey has wrongly charged Andrew Brunsonwith belonging to a terrorist organization and engaging in terrorist activities.

(3) The Government of the Republic of Turkey, including the senior leadership of the government, bears direct responsibility for the health and safety of Andrew Brunsonwhile he remains in the custody of the Government of the Republic of Turkey.

(4) Congress will not tolerate any foreign government’s efforts to use United States citizens for political leverage.

(5) President Erdogan, along with other senior officials of the Government of the Republic of Turkey, have publicly and repeatedly stated the intention of the Government of the Republic of Turkey to purchase the S–400 system from Russia, an act that is sanctionable under current United States law.

(6) Any effort by the Government of the Republic of Turkey to further enhance their relationship with Russia will degrade the general security of the NATO alliance, and NATO member countries, and degrade interoperability of the alliance.

(b) Report.—The Secretary of Defense shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees a plan to remove the Government of the Republic of Turkey from participation in the F–35 program, to include industrial and military aspects of the program. The plan shall include:

(1) steps required to unwind industrial participation of Turkish industry in the manufacturing and assembly of the F–35 program;

(2) costs associated with replacing tooling and other manufacturing materials held by Turkish industry;

(3) timelines associated with the removal of the Government of the Republic of Turkey and Turkish industry from participation in the F–35 program, so as to cause the least impact on the remaining international program partners; and

(4) steps required to prohibit the transfer of any F–35 aircraft currently owned and operated, by the Government of the Republic of Turkey, from the territory of the United States.

(c) Limitation On The Transfer Of The F–35 To Turkey.—The Department of Defense may not transfer the title for any F–35 aircraft to the Government of the Republic of Turkey, until such time as the report identified in subsection (b) has been submitted.

(d) Appropriate Congressional Committees Defined.—In this section, the term “appropriate congressional committees” means—

(1) the congressional defense committees; and

(2) the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate and the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives.

---
SEC. 6204. CLARIFICATION OF LIMITATION ON THE TRANSFER OF THE F–35 TO TURKEY.
The limitation on the transfer of the F–35 to Turkey in section 1269(c) shall apply to the transfer or delivery of that aircraft to Turkey rather than to the transfer of title for that aircraft to Turkey.

=================

Seems US is more concerned with Andrew Brunson.

(Courtesy of The Hill)

"The indictment against Brunson actually claims that all churches in America are connected through an organization called CAMA, which includes the CIA, FBI, and NSA as members. The indictment claims that any Christian missionary—Evangelical or Mormon—who travels to another country is operating under the control of CAMA, essentially making them a spy for the American government.

One of the key pieces of evidence brought against Brunson was a text message his daughter sent him that contained a video of “makluba,” a traditional Arab rice and meat dish that is popular in the Middle East. The indictment claims the dish is also popular among terrorist groups, thereby linking Brunson to terrorism. During the trial, Brunson noted he has never even eaten the dish and learned the name of it by reading it in his indictment.

Of course, no prosecutor in any democratic country would ever consider the charges to be even remotely credible. And yet, he now faces up to 35 years in prison, effectively a life sentence."

Let me just say as a Christian, that claim about all churches being part of some CIA-led league are hogwash. Complete and utter BS.

Lets allow reason and pragmatism to rule the day, yes? The priority is Turkey wants their jets. Fork over one US citizen, that's one less issue for vote-hungry US politicians to leech off of. And then assurances Turkey won't wittingly or unwittingly give away the keys to the F 35 kingdom, because these jets will protect Turkey, against all contingencies (incl. possible breakdown of relations w/ Russia, or even the US)

 

[-------]

(Courtesy of The Hill)

"The indictment against Brunson actually claims that all churches in America are connected through an organization called CAMA, which includes the CIA, FBI, and NSA as members. The indictment claims that any Christian missionary—Evangelical or Mormon—who travels to another country is operating under the control of CAMA, essentially making them a spy for the American government.

One of the key pieces of evidence brought against Brunson was a text message his daughter sent him that contained a video of “makluba,” a traditional Arab rice and meat dish that is popular in the Middle East. The indictment claims the dish is also popular among terrorist groups, thereby linking Brunson to terrorism. During the trial, Brunson noted he has never even eaten the dish and learned the name of it by reading it in his indictment.

Of course, no prosecutor in any democratic country would ever consider the charges to be even remotely credible. And yet, he now faces up to 35 years in prison, effectively a life sentence."

Let me just say as a Christian, that claim about all churches being part of some CIA-led league are hogwash. Complete and utter BS.

Lets allow reason and pragmatism to rule the day, yes? The priority is Turkey wants their jets. Fork over one US citizen, that's one less issue for vote-hungry US politicians to leech off of. And then assurances Turkey won't wittingly or unwittingly give away the keys to the F 35 kingdom, because these jets will protect Turkey, against all contingencies (incl. possible breakdown of relations w/ Russia, or even the US)

We've seen footage of FETO members entering churches, they even have keys to the churches.

 

[AlohanAkua]

We've seen footage of FETO members entering churches, they even have keys to the churches.

?... Are you throwing conspiracy videos at me? Can I guarantee that every person who walks into a church isn't involved w/ espionage? No. Does this prove the existence of some grand "Masonic" Christian conspiracy? No.

Turkey wants its jets. US wants its citizen, and reassurance its alliance asset is safe. Lets stick to that, please.

 

[-SINAN-]

?... Are you throwing conspiracy videos at me?

You might see those videos as conspiracy but you can find no Turk in this section whom sees these videos as conspiracy.

 

[Deliorman]

On 51:00 I started to get horny... at 52:06 I had an orgasm. Uhhhhh beeee...

 

[Bismarck]

No! Earlier!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1009840353887825920

Maybe.
https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...usoglu-says/amp#click=https://t.co/BlivCPvMuY

 

[xenon54 out]

?... Are you throwing conspiracy videos at me? Can I guarantee that every person who walks into a church isn't involved w/ espionage? No. Does this prove the existence of some grand "Masonic" Christian conspiracy? No.

Turkey wants its jets. US wants its citizen, and reassurance its alliance asset is safe. Lets stick to that, please.

Well it isnt a conspiracy theory, these people do exist this much i can tell as someone who opposes erdogan, it would be a too long of a story so lets leave it a side.
About the american pastor well i dont know if he was involved in anything and to be honest i dont think he did anything wrong, erdogan himself said he would like to exchange him against turkish cleric in US so i believe he is just a pawn against US.

Peter relays Erdogan's words in a speech at a police academy Thursday: "You have a pastor too," Erdogan said, adding, "You give us that one and we'll work with our judiciary and give back yours."

 

[Hexciter]

Maybe.
https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...usoglu-says/amp#click=https://t.co/BlivCPvMuY

Yes, I seee. According to reporter, we bought STOVL fighters

 

[-------]

T-38M Simulator, instructor station.

 

[AlohanAkua]

Well it isnt a conspiracy theory, these people do exist this much i can tell as someone who opposes erdogan, it would be a too long of a story so lets leave it a side.
About the american pastor well i dont know if he was involved in anything and to be honest i dont think he did anything wrong, erdogan himself said he would like to exchange him against turkish cleric in US so i believe he is just a pawn against US.

Peter relays Erdogan's words in a speech at a police academy Thursday: "You have a pastor too," Erdogan said, adding, "You give us that one and we'll work with our judiciary and give back yours."

Can you give a 1 or 2 sentence summary of what they're accused of (and group name)? I don't speak Turkish, so all I could gather from the video was of a Turkish-American civic group.

I'm guessing anti-Erdogan, maybe JDP, but they're not trying to revert Istanbul back to Constantinople right?

 

[xenon54 out]

Can you give a 1 or 2 sentence summary of what they're accused of (and group name)? I don't speak Turkish, so all I could gather from the video was of a Turkish-American civic group.

I'm guessing anti-Erdogan, maybe JDP, but they're not trying to revert Istanbul back to Constantinople right?

It isnt easy to describe them in two sentences.
They are being accused of membership in Gülen cult, its an islamist organization with the aim to turn Turkey into an islamic state, in order to do this they first needed to get rid of the secularist military protecting laicite in Turkey.
But Turkish military was a too mighty enemy to go to a direct confrontation so they built up a network to undermine the military primarily but also any other state organ basically, it took them decades (starting point is widely beliewed to be early 80's) to reach a certain might inside the state which eventually reached a breaking point in mid 00's.
The founder and head of the cult fled to USA under the pretext of medical treatment because he was going to get arrested in 90's for the exact reason above, his network was a useful tool for US goverment so they not only tolerated him but also protect him till this day.

Now the funny part is AKP started as a new conservative party in early 00's and they choose mighty Gülen movement as partners, they together did not only cripple the militarys political might but basically screwed the country for a decade together till a war broke out between them somewhere around 2012-13.
I know how that sounds but do your research and you will see its isnt a conspiracy theory at all and you as a Korean would understand better since something similar happened in South Korea too if im not wrong.
Now the situation is that anyone can be arrested under the pretext of being gülenist, many are indeed a member there but AKP is also using it as an excuse to get rid of unwanted people ofcourse.

 

[Stimpy75]

Screwed the country for a decade? Before that Turkey was a land were milk and honey was flowing? How old are you?

 

[AlohanAkua]

It isnt easy to describe them in two sentences.
They are being accused of membership in Gülen cult, its an islamist organization with the aim to turn Turkey into an islamic state, in order to do this they first needed to get rid of the secularist military protecting laicite in Turkey.
But Turkish military was a too mighty enemy to go to a direct confrontation so they built up a network to undermine the military primarily but also any other state organ basically, it took them decades (starting point is widely beliewed to be early 80's) to reach a certain might inside the state which eventually reached a breaking point in mid 00's.
The founder and head of the cult fled to USA under the pretext of medical treatment because he was going to get arrested in 90's for the exact reason above, his network was a useful tool for US goverment so they not only tolerated him but also protect him till this day.

Now the funny part is AKP started as a new conservative party in early 00's and they choose mighty Gülen movement as partners, they together did not only cripple the militarys political might but basically screwed the country for a decade together till a war broke out between them somewhere around 2012-13.
I know how that sounds but do your research and you will see its isnt a conspiracy theory at all and you as a Korean would understand better since something similar happened in South Korea too if im not wrong.
Now the situation is that anyone can be arrested under the pretext of being gülenist, many are indeed a member there but AKP is also using it as an excuse to get rid of unwanted people ofcourse.

Thank you for the response, I will look into it. Why the US would want to support Islamists over a secular govt in Turkey I cannot fathom; up to now Turkey has been something of a model majority-Muslim state that is democratic/isn't a theocracy (w/ some issues, but what country's history is free of those)