Turkish ambassador back

[Anubis]

You yourself is totally against the core of Bangladeshi freedom movement. You better stop lecturing here.

Absolutely not...read the original constitution and then come to debate with me....these Jamatis are antithetical to liberal ideals....they only come to fly the western values flag when it suits them and then go on about how Jews and Christians should be taxed....this is a very well known tactic used by British Islamists like Muhajjirun who proudly claim the flag of Islam will fly over Buckingham and Sharia will be implemented but defend their bullshit using British laws of freedom of speech....Bangladesh does not guarantee freedom to anti-national speech...whether you or your leaders like it or not...the core of the movement is and shall remain Bengali nationalism and secularism....neither of which can accommodate a party with ideals remotely like Jamaat's....my point still stands Jamaat has no freedom of speech or freedom to exist in Bangladesh based on the original constitution of the country....I am just stating the obvious facts here.

 

[TopCat]

Absolutely not...read the original constitution and then come to debate with me....these Jamatis are antithetical to liberal ideals....they only come to fly the western values flag when it suits them and then go on about how Jews and Christians should be taxed....this is a very well known tactic used by British Islamists like Muhajjirun who proudly claim the flag of Islam will fly over Buckingham and Sharia will be implemented but defend their bullshit using British laws of freedom of speech....Bangladesh does not guarantee freedom to anti-national speech...whether you or your leaders like it or not...the core of the movement is and shall remain Bengali nationalism and secularism....neither of which can accommodate a party with ideals remotely like Jamaat's....my point still stands Jamaat has no freedom of speech or freedom to exist in Bangladesh based on the original constitution of the country....I am just stating the obvious facts here.

There were no core of the movement, and there were no original constitution. The constitution itself was changed within a year and can be changed millions of times in the future.
The movement was about freedom and democracy which you are against.

 

[Anubis]

There were no core of the movement, and there were no original constitution. The constitution itself was changed within a year and can be changed millions of times in the future.
The movement was about freedom and democracy which you are against.

I am absolutely not against Democracy....Germany is a much developed democracy than Bangladesh go and try to stand in elections with a Nazi ticket.Go to South Korea and try to run on a Communist ticket.Countries can and do ban ideologies that are antithetical to their national identity. Jamaat is exactly that. And as you said the movement was about freedom....so I am not wrong in saying that Jamaat is against what the movement is about. And you are right the constitution was amended within a year...the irony of your comment is the first amendment is about prosecuting war criminals....so please do not try to defend Jamaat when it comes to the question of their position in Bangladesh's history or their place in Bangladeshi politics....you will defeat yourself.

 

[Nilgiri]

The movement was about freedom and democracy which you are against.

Allowing freedom and democracy for those that will destroy the very basis of both is counterproductive.

You only get to participate in freedom and democracy if you demonstrate you actually believe in it.

 

[TopCat]

I am absolutely not against Democracy....Germany is a much developed democracy than Bangladesh go and try to stand in elections with a Nazi ticket.Go to South Korea and try to run on a Communist ticket.Countries can and do ban ideologies that are antithetical to their national identity. Jamaat is exactly that. And as you said the movement was about freedom....so I am not wrong in saying that Jamaat is against what the movement is about. And you are right the constitution was amended within a year...the irony of your comment is the first amendment is about prosecuting war criminals....so please do not try to defend Jamaat when it comes to the question of their position in Bangladesh's history or their place in Bangladeshi politics....you will defeat yourself.

Germany and Korea were both American lackey that time who were facing existential threat from former Soviet Union. It has nothing to do with Bangladesh. Neither Nazi nor Communist was against Germany or Korea. Sorry dude... adar bepari hoia jahajer khobor nite jaio na. We are not under occupation that we have to follow instruction from some distant capital.

Allowing freedom and democracy for those that will destroy the very basis of both is counterproductive.

You only get to participate in freedom and democracy if you demonstrate you actually believe in it.

History says otherwise in Bangladesh. It is those talking about democracy are actually became more autocratic in case of Bangladesh. It is the AL which banned all political party except itself in 1975. It is AL which banned myriads of newspapers whereas her opponent banned none while in power. Judge yourself instead of stereotyping.

 

[Nilgiri]

Neither Nazi nor Communist was against Germany or Korea.

They certainly were against democratic and free Germany and Korea.

Do you have any idea how many of their countrymen the Nazis and Communists in Germany and Korea respectively murdered? Just like Jamatis would do if they ever got control of Bangladesh.

History says otherwise in Bangladesh. It is those talking about democracy are actually became more autocratic in case of Bangladesh. It is the AL which banned all political party except itself in 1975. It is AL which banned myriads of newspapers whereas her opponent banned none while in power. Judge yourself instead of stereotyping.

Its opponents at the time (and present too) do not believe in the idea of democracy and freedom....so like I said its too early for full democracy for Bangladesh.

Its why many countries went autocratic to get the long term democracy in place...examples like South Korea and Taiwan. You have to go for the greater good sometimes especially when there are such large numbers of anti-national ideology within the country.

When Bangladesh is more mature and developed country, true democracy can be introduced.

Democracy can always be usurped by people that do not believe in it if a country is not careful. Just look how Hitler rose to power....it was with applause and the ballot....the latter being something he destroyed quite quickly when it served its purpose. So it will be the base too with Jamatis and their ultra-Sharia ideology.

 

[TopCat]

They certainly were against democratic and free Germany and Korea.

Do you have any idea how many of their countrymen the Nazis and Communists in Germany and Korea respectively murdered? Just like Jamatis would do if they ever got control of Bangladesh.

Do you know how many Stalin killed? Do you have any idea how many American soldiers killed all over the world?
We cant just randomly suppress people with dissent only what happend in some far away places.

Democracy is not a easy go. You have to go through the pain of convincing people of differing ideology instead of trying to suppress them. No matter what it is, you have to let them practice it.

When Bangladesh is more mature and developed country, true democracy can be introduced.
.

And who do you think will decide when BD is matured enough? And who will lead till that time. Why not Jamaat instead. They are more potent than AL. We can invite Jamaat to lead BD till it mature enough to let AL parctice democracy in Bangladesh?

 

[Anubis]

Germany and Korea were both American lackey that time who were facing existential threat from former Soviet Union. It has nothing to do with Bangladesh. Neither Nazi nor Communist was against Germany or Korea. Sorry dude... adar bepari hoia jahajer khobor nite jaio na. We are not under occupation that we have to follow instruction from some distant capital.


History says otherwise in Bangladesh. It is those talking about democracy are actually became more autocratic in case of Bangladesh. It is the AL which banned all political party except itself in 1975. It is AL which banned myriads of newspapers whereas her opponent banned none while in power. Judge yourself instead of stereotyping.

You have very poor perception of how a nation works. Nazism is an antithetical concept to the idea of a modern and liberal Germany. Germany defied America about going into Iraq...the US does not have any meaningful control over Germany anymore. But the Germans still vehemently suppress any form of national socialist politics. Korea is an independent country...the soviet union does not exist anymore....the US itself failed to outlaw the communist party...but the koreans still outlaw communism...tomar "neither nazi nor communist was against germnay or korea" logic dia bola jai Bangladesh Jamaat e Islami ar Pakistani Jamaat e Islami ek party nah to Bangladesh Jammat e Islami to Bangaldesh er biruddhe nah Pakistan JeI Bangaldesher biruddhe....ar shobshomoy jodi mone hoy je ashe pashe ja hoi ta 'distant capital' er karone hoy tahole lojja na kore mukh khule oita boilo...naki baki Raw Raw kora abalder moto label laiga jabe deikha bhoy pao?..mukh kholar aage prothome koekta history book(parle Bangladesher itihash) ar koekta logical discourse er boi poiro...tarpor judge korte aisho ke adar bepari ar ke jahajer nabik.

 

[TopCat]

You have very poor perception of how a nation works. Nazism is an antithetical concept to the idea of a modern and liberal Germany. Germany defied America about going into Iraq...the US does not have any meaningful control over Germany anymore. But the Germans still vehemently suppress any form of national socialist politics. Korea is an independent country...the soviet union does not exist anymore....the US itself failed to outlaw the communist party...but the koreans still outlaw communism...tomar "neither nazi nor communist was against germnay or korea" logic dia bola jai Bangladesh Jamaat e Islami ar Pakistani Jamaat e Islami ek party nah to Bangladesh Jammat e Islami to Bangaldesh er biruddhe nah Pakistan JeI Bangaldesher biruddhe....ar shobshomoy jodi mone hoy je ashe pashe ja hoi ta 'distant capital' er karone hoy tahole lojja na kore mukh khule oita boilo...naki baki Raw Raw kora abalder moto label laiga jabe deikha bhoy pao?..mukh kholar aage prothome koekta history book(parle Bangladesher itihash) ar koekta logical discourse er boi poiro...tarpor judge korte aisho ke adar bepari ar ke jahajer nabik.

Bichar mani kintu Tal gachta amar. You people follow this very ideology

 

[Nilgiri]

Democracy is not a easy go. You have to go through the pain of convincing people of differing ideology instead of trying to suppress them. No matter what it is, you have to let them practice it.

It depends just how vicious the ideology is of the other people.

The autocracy strategy worked quite well in places like Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore.....which are all proper sustainable democracies now.

It also worked to some level in Indonesia (under Suharto) and is still ongoing in China.

India managed to go against this trend because it has strong enough institutions inherited from the British and secular principles and basic rights are enshrined in the constitution....and there was never a huge anti-liberal wave or sentiment among any community that sought to exploit the democracy for their own ultimate oppressive agenda.

But the price paid by India was it gave universal suffrage too early to its uneducated and undereducated masses which led to a huge policy paralysis for many years in cold war.

In Bangladesh case it is more the size and significance of the first few countries I mentioned esp in terms of institutions inherited....with definitely a sizeable anti-liberal movement by % terms (i.e jamaatis). Till that % is reduced over time to a more manageable and declining level, Bangladesh simply is not ready for total free democracy. That is the bare bones truth.

You dont give a weapon freely to those that seek to destroy you. Machiaveli 101....S. Korea and Taiwan know about this only too well.

 

[TopCat]

It depends just how vicious the ideology is of the other people.

I dont read your lab lab la.. all the way. So try to be short and concise. Its hard for old people like me to read with spectacles.
I thought the answer for the first line will cover most part.
You are suggesting the opposition is against democracy which is completely false. They shown more democratic values than the current AL govt in the past.

 

[Anubis]

Bichar mani kintu Tal gachta amar. You people follow this very ideology

Nah....ami court e gie bichar chacchi nah...amar ideology hocche amar desh I am the judge and the jury....jara amar desh er mulniti mane nah she amake bolte parbe nah ami kivabe court chalabo....its very simple....jemon Turkey Saudi Pakistan karo objection amra mani nah karon tara outsider...temni Jamaat o outside ebong oder o objection shonar shomoy amar nai.

 

[Nilgiri]

And who do you think will decide when BD is matured enough? And who will lead till that time. Why not Jamaat instead. They are more potent than AL. We can invite Jamaat to lead BD till it mature enough to let AL parctice democracy in Bangladesh?

The people themselves do this when the time comes...see the examples of South Korea and Taiwan.

Autocracy strains against the people only when they reach a certain level of basic development and income and aspire for more (which autocracy at some level tends to chaff badly at given it is inherently quite unresponsive to certain needs that follow growing disposable incomes).

Bangladesh is way way below that threshold. Autocracy can effectively continue unabated for a generation at least....as long as it ensures basic needs continue to expand in coverage and income + job growth are adequate.

 

[TopCat]

Nah....ami court e gie bichar chacchi nah...amar ideology hocche amar desh I am the judge and the jury....jara amar desh er mulniti mane nah she amake bolte parbe nah ami kivabe court chalabo....its very simple....jemon Turkey Saudi Pakistan karo objection amra mani nah karon tara outsider...temni Jamaat o outside ebong oder o objection shonar shomoy amar nai.

yes you are Donald J. Trump

 

[Nilgiri]

You are suggesting the opposition is against democracy which is completely false. They shown more democratic values than the current AL govt in the past.

They are a big stain and sham given their basic ideology and you know it. Or maybe you refuse to see it.

Anyway I will let you and Anubis to keep discussing it, I have said my piece.