Turkic - Anatolian Music

[Targon]

Kotarmak is not used as I said I thought ütmek/ütülmek was pretty common.

I think one of the most important factors differentiates Turkic languages is different directions of evolution.(ASQ's post is an example), thats unfortunately because of huge range, many words gained different meanings, some words dropped out of usage and replaced by an alternative Turkic word, new words are appeared and of course pronounces also changed.

 

[T-123456]

Gulay's 'ceseratin vami aska' is good too.

 

[rmi5]

By the way, the lexical similarity between Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turkish are shown at 86% in the graph I posted, it perhaps sounds correct, more or less (maybe it could be around 90% too).

Indeed, there is a good number of genuine Turkic words that are different between Azerbaijan and Anatolian Turkish:

(examples are genuine Turkic words that exists in two languages)

Azerbaijani - Turkish - English

Tap - Bul - Find
Axtar - Ara - Search
Qayt - Dön - Return
Apar - Götür - Take
Harada - Nerede - Where
Dişle - Isır - Bite
Danışmaq - Konuşmak - To talk
Darıxqanlıq - Sıkılganlık - Boredom
Oxşa - Benze - Resemble (Oşxarlıq - Benzerlik - Resemblance)
Ud - Yen - Win
Uduz - Yenil - Lose
Qutar - Bitir - Finish
Qadağan - Yasak - Forbiden
Yandır - Yak - Burn
Yaxşı - İyi - Good
İyis - Koku - Smell
İsti - Sıcak - Warm
Uşaq - Çocuk - Children ("Uşak" exists in some of local Anatolian dialects)
Bala - Yavru - Baby

Some examples...

Actually, the North Azerbaijani dialect and South Azerbaijani dialect have some minor differences. I think they have used North Azerbaijani accent as the "Azeri" language in your link. In an another article, I have read that the mutual intelligibility between Turkish and North Azerbaijani is about 85%(which is very close to 86% in your link), and it is 90% for south Azerbaijani and Turkish. But, I think this similarities are on rise these days since the media(TV, internet, ...) has brought Azerbaijani and Turkish youths closer together.

 

[T-123456]

''Ütmek'' ''Ütülmek'' and "Kotarmak"

Utmek,utulmek is common in Ic anadolu used daily in Nevsehir,Kirsehir,Kayseri,Yozgat.
Never heard of ''Kotarmak''.

 

[telkon]

This is the supposed (approx) lexical similarity between different Turkic languages.

http://i47.tinypic.com/iveq2h.png

You have to keep in mind that Kyrgyz is a Kypchak tongue, while Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turkish are Oghuz. Uzbek-Uyghur are much closer to Oghuz than Kazakh-Kyrgyz (Turkmen is Oghuz).

with due respect, but you're misguiding people here with that table. excerpt from the source of that similarity table:

Note, however, that the graph above does not directly reflect a "subjective feel" of how close or intelligible any two languages are, because the percentages of recognizable words in a Swadesh list and the real speech cannot be taken at face value. The additional differences in pronunciation, morphology, syntax and idiomatic expressions would make the actual subjective intelligibility drop much faster than the equivalent decrease in the similarity in the Swadesh word listsabove. Consequently, the actual intelligibility, while approaching the above-mentioned figures for higher values (> 90%), would plummet rapidly for lower values (< 70%). In fact, 60% in this graph would correspond to nearly 0-20% in a fast, well-formed real speech generated in a communication between two adult native speakers, therefore, say, the speakers of Turkish would predictably find it extremely difficult to understand the speakers of the languages of the Great Steppe, whereas Chuvash with its meager 50% to any other language, under similar circumstances, woud sound almost completely incomprehensible to any other Turkic speaker (maybe just except for a few shared recognizable borrowings).

when i first encountered turks from turkey, we were 10-15 boys aged 13-16 years old and we didn't understand a single word of his speech, though he was speaking slow and word-by-word. several years after, when i learnt turkish, i invited them to my house and had to translate their speech to my mother and father because all they understood was "ben, sen, biz, araba, çay" so that chart is simply misleading. i can freely understand tuvan and altai speakers by the way (though their similarity percentage with kyrgyz is 59 an 72 % respectively, turkish being 59 %)

By the way, the lexical similarity between Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turkish are shown at 86% in the graph I posted, it perhaps sounds correct, more or less (maybe it could be around 90% too).

Indeed, there is a good number of genuine Turkic words that are different between Azerbaijan and Anatolian Turkish:

(examples are genuine Turkic words that exists in two languages)

Azerbaijani - Turkish - English

Tap - Bul - Find
Axtar - Ara - Search
Qayt - Dön - Return
Apar - Götür - Take
Harada - Nerede - Where
Dişle - Isır - Bite
Danışmaq - Konuşmak - To talk
Darıxqanlıq - Sıkılganlık - Boredom
Oxşa - Benze - Resemble (Oşxarlıq - Benzerlik - Resemblance)
Ud - Yen - Win
Uduz - Yenil - Lose
Qutar - Bitir - Finish
Qadağan - Yasak - Forbiden
Yandır - Yak - Burn
Yaxşı - İyi - Good
İyis - Koku - Smell
İsti - Sıcak - Warm
Uşaq - Çocuk - Children ("Uşak" exists in some of local Anatolian dialects)
Bala - Yavru - Baby

Some examples...

i'm adding kyrgyz to the list
Tap - Bul - Find - Tap
Axtar - Ara - Search - İzde
Qayt - Dön - Return - Qayt
Apar - Götür - Take - Apar (actually alıp bar: literally fetch and go)
Harada - Nerede - Where- Kayda
Dişle - Isır - Bite Tişte
Danışmaq - Konuşmak - To talk - Süylöş
Darıxqanlıq - Sıkılganlık - Boredom - i don't know
Oxşa - Benze - Resemble (Oşxarlıq - Benzerlik - Resemblance) - Okşo
Ud - Yen - Win - Ut
Uduz - Yenil - Lose - Utul
Qutar - Bitir - Finish - Bütür
Qadağan - Yasak - Forbiden- Bolboyt
Yandır - Yak - Burn - Cak/küygüz
Yaxşı - İyi - Good - Cakşı
İyis - Koku - Smell - Cıt
İsti - Sıcak - Warm - Issık
Uşaq - Çocuk - Children ("Uşak" exists in some of local Anatolian dialects) - Baldar
Bala - Yavru - Baby - Bala (actually this word is iranic)

 

[telkon]

We actually use Ütmek(Win) Ütülmek(Lose) but only in some cases, for example when kids play Bilye/Misket, the verb used for loser who gives his Bilyes to winner is "Ütülmek" , so its mostly used on games etc. where you usually gain or lose something. I also saw "Kotarmak" but don't know if it was always in Turkish or adopted in modern era, its certainly not used in my region's local dialect.

My etymologic dictionary says Apar is most probably Iranian.

Edit: we have Darlanmak too, get bored.

@telkon

Ekşi sözlükte g.tünden salladığını düşündüğüm biri Türkçedeki "Ay Dede" isminin "Ay Ata" isimli Türk mitolojisindeki bir tanrıdan geldiğini söylemiş, hani tanrı olmasada var mı Kırgızlarda da Ay'a böyle hitap şekli ?

o ay ata'yı biri wikipediye yazmış, herkes aynı şeyi söyleyip duruyor. bildiğim kadarıyla ay-ata sadece sibirya halklarının birinin masallarında geçen bir karakter. mitolojiyle pek bir alakası yok. türk inancında baş tanrı Ülgen veya Gök Tengri'dir, onun eşi Umay Ene ve yer altı efendisi Erlig/Erlik vardır. geri kalan her şey bölgesel ruhlardan ve perilerden oluşur. bu bağlamda japon şintoizmine çok benziyor.

 

[Targon]

Tahmin ediyordum zaten uydurma olduğunu ama yok mu yani Ay a benzer hitap şekilleri ?

Its kinda irritating that compared words are both Turkic words and alternative to each other but because of that mutual intellectibility is decreasing :/

Btw Sıcak is also coming from same root, in same places its still used as Iscak/Isıcak.

 

[ASQ-1918]

My etymologic dictionary says Apar is most probably Iranian.

"Apar" is certainly a Turkic word. It exists in Yakut language with the same meaning as in Azerbaijani. Yakut is perhaps the most distant to other Turkic languages, so this indicates a proto-Turkic origin of "Apar".

apar - Vikisözlük

Also, it doesn't exist in any of Iranian languages, at least not in that meaning.

@telkon

I believe you are mixing up Turkic "Bala" and Persian "Bâlâ", which means high/elevated.

 

[rmi5]

"Apar" is certainly a Turkic word. It exists in Yakut language with the same meaning as in Azerbaijani. Yakut is perhaps the most distant to other Turkic languages, so this indicates a proto-Turkic origin of "Apar".

apar - Vikisözlük

Also, it doesn't exist in any of Iranian languages, at least not in that meaning.

@telkon

I believe you are mixing up Turkic "Bala" and Persian "Bâlâ", which means high/elevated.

Yes, there is no word like apar in Iranian languages , and baby is called "Bachcheh" in Persian.

 

[telkon]

"Apar" is certainly a Turkic word. It exists in Yakut language with the same meaning as in Azerbaijani. Yakut is perhaps the most distant to other Turkic languages, so this indicates a proto-Turkic origin of "Apar".

apar - Vikisözlük

Also, it doesn't exist in any of Iranian languages, at least not in that meaning.

@telkon

I believe you are mixing up Turkic "Bala" and Persian "Bâlâ", which means high/elevated.

yes, you may be right. that may be the case. also, can you provide source for yakut meaning of the verb apar? in kyrgyz we use it as apar or alıp bar.

edit: actually you're right. i checked. bâlâ is synonim to âli

Yes, there is no word like apar in Iranian languages , and baby is called "Bachcheh" in Persian.

tajiks use bachche for "adult male" and for "dear friend"

edit: you're right too, my friend. strange shift of meaning though.

 

[ASQ-1918]

can you provide source for yakut meaning of the verb apar? in kyrgyz we use it as apar or alıp bar.

It's in the "vikisözlük" link I posted.

 

[telkon]

It's in the "vikisözlük" link I posted.

it's for shor language. that's not yakut. it's khakas subgroup language. maybe that's why it's similar to kyrygz.

 

[Targon]

ASQ its says OFa(Middle Persian) appurtan, appar- alıp götürmek, çalmak << İr *apa-bar- << HAvr *apo-bher- § HAvr *apo ayrılma edatı + HAvr*bher- taşımak, götürmek

Its doesn gives it as a fact though, but as the most possible explanation, if its a borrowing from Iranian languages then I presume its an old borrowing, not from modern Persian.

 

[ASQ-1918]

Your right, my bad.

 

[telkon]

Tahmin ediyordum zaten uydurma olduğunu ama yok mu yani Ay a benzer hitap şekilleri ?

Its kinda irritating that compared words are both Turkic words and alternative to each other but because of that mutual intellectibility is decreasing :/

Btw Sıcak is also coming from same root, in same places its still used as Iscak/Isıcak.

bizde yok. yakut arkadaşım bununla ilgili bir şeyler anlatmıştı. ay tanrısının göğün bilmem kaçıncı katında oturduğuna dair birşeyler. ama şu an net hatırlamıyorum. ama yine de doğrudan türk mitolojisinde böyle bir şey vardır demek yanlış olur, zira bunlar bölgesel etkilerdir kanımca. tuvalı ve altaylıların Gök Tanrı'ya Bay Tayga demeleri ve farklı özellikler katmaları gibi mesela.