Turkey rethinking its place in the world

[xMustiiej70]

The weirdest part is that when Turkish Pm visited germany.
germany couldn't say no to turkish PM demands.
such as turkish langauges in german schools.
and stuff.

they said we want to have full business and relationship with eachother.
yeah full trade partners and stuff but no membership.
i think its because of turkish military power and the religious.
and also the immigrants.

 

[Solomon2]

When I asked the prime minister about stories alleging a U.S.-Israeli murder and organ selling scheme in Iraq, he could not bring himself to condemn them. WSJ 6/3/2010

Israeli special forces and their commanders were apparently shocked to find their boarding attempt on the Mavi ("Blue") Marmara met with violence. They should not have been. I have no doubt that the Turkish "peace activists" aboard the ship regarded Israeli troops as something akin to the second coming of Hitler's SS.

To follow Turkish discourse in recent years has been to follow a national decline into madness. Imagine 80 million or so people sitting at the crossroads between Europe and Asia. They don't speak an Indo-European language and perhaps hundreds of thousands of them have meaningful access to any outside media. What information most of them get is filtered through a secular press that makes Italian communists look right wing by comparison and an increasing number of state (i.e., Islamist) influenced outfits. Topics A and B (or B and A, it doesn't really matter) have been the malign influence on the world of Israel and the United States.

For example, while there was much hand-wringing in our own media about "Who lost Turkey?" when U.S. forces were denied entry to Iraq from the north in 2003, no such introspection was evident in Ankara and Istanbul. Instead, Turks were fed a steady diet of imagined atrocities perpetrated by U.S. forces in Iraq, often with the implication that they were acting as muscle for the Jews. The newspaper Yeni Safak, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's daily read, claimed that Americans were tossing so many Iraqi bodies into the Euphrates that local mullahs had issued a fatwa ordering residents not to eat the fish. The same paper repeatedly claimed that the U.S. used chemical weapons in Fallujah. And it reported that Israeli soldiers had been deployed alongside U.S. forces in Iraq and that U.S. forces were harvesting the innards of dead Iraqis for sale on the U.S. "organ market."

The secular Hurriyet newspaper, meanwhile, accused Israeli soldiers of assassinating Turkish security personnel in Mosul and said the U.S. was starting an occupation of (Muslim) Indonesia under the guise of humanitarian assistance. Then U.S. ambassador to Turkey Eric Edelman actually felt the need to organize a conference call to explain to the Turkish media that secret U.S. nuclear testing did not cause the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. One of the craziest theories circulating in Ankara was that the U.S. was colonizing the Middle East because its scientists were aware of an impending asteroid strike on North America.

The Mosul and organ harvesting stories were soon brought together in a hit Turkish movie called "Valley of the Wolves," which I saw in 2006 at a mall in Ankara. My poor Turkish was little barrier to understanding. The body parts of dead Iraqis could be clearly seen being placed into crates marked New York and Tel Aviv. It is no exaggeration to say that such anti-Semitic fare had not been played to mass audiences in Europe since the Third Reich.

When I interviewed Prime Minister Erdogan (one of several encounters) in 2006, he was unabashed about the narrative.

Erdogan: "I believe the people who made this movie took media reports as their basis . . . for example, Abu Ghraib prison—we have seen this on TV, and now we are watching Guantanamo Bay in the world media, and of course it could be that this movie was prepared under these influences."

Me: "But do you believe that many Turks have such a view of America, that we're the kind of people who'd go to Iraq and kill people to take their organs?"

Erdogan: "These kind of things happen in the world. If it's not happening in Iraq, then its happening in other countries."

Me: "Which kind of things? Killing people to take their organs?"

Erdogan: "I'm not saying they are being killed. . . . There are people in poverty who use this as a means to get money."

I was somewhat taken aback that the prime minister could not bring himself to condemn a fictional blood libel. I should not have been. He and his party have traded on America and Israel hatred ever since. There can be little doubt the Turkish flotilla that challenged the Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza was organized with his approval, if not encouragement. Mr. Erodogan's foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, is a proponent of a philosophy which calls on Turkey to loosen Western ties to the U.S., NATO and the European Union and seek its own sphere of influence to the east. Turkey's recent deal to help Iran enrich uranium should come as no surprise.

Sadly, Turkey has had no credible opposition since its corrupt secular parties lost to Mr. Erdogan in 2002. The Ataturk-inspired People's Republican Party has just thrown off one leader who was constantly railing about CIA plots for another who wants to expand state spending as government coffers collapse everywhere else in the word. What's more, Turks remain blind to their manifest hypocrisies. Ask how they would feel if other countries arranged an "aid" convoy (akin to the Gaza flotilla) for their own Kurdish minority and you'll be met with dumb stares.

Turkey's blind spot on the Kurdish issue is especially striking when you recall that Turkey nearly invaded Syria in 1998 for sponsoring Kurdish terrorism. Kurdish separatist leader Abdullah Ocalan then bounced around the capitals of Europe, only to be captured in Kenya and handed over to the Turks by the CIA. Turkey's antiterror alliance with Israel and the U.S. couldn't have been more natural.

Yet Prime Minister Erdogan was one of the first world leaders to recognize the legitimacy of the Hamas government in Gaza. And now he is upping the rhetoric after provoking Israel on Hamas's behalf. It is Israel, he says, that has shocked "the conscience of humanity." Foreign Minister Davutoglu is challenging the U.S: "We expect full solidarity with us. It should not seem like a choice between Turkey and Israel. It should be a choice between right and wrong."

Please. Good leaders work to defuse tensions in situations like this, not to escalate them. No American should be deceived as to the true motives of these men: They are demagogues appealing to the worst elements in their own country and the broader Middle East.

The obvious answer to the question of "Who lost Turkey?"—the Western-oriented Turkey, that is—is the Turks did. The outstanding question is how much damage they'll do to regional peace going forward.

 

[pak-yes]

Solomon why you waste your time posting these things.

I can guarantee you that your attempts will not even change the mind of a single Pakistani or even most of the Indians.

 

[Solomon2]

Solomon why you waste your time posting these things. I can guarantee you that your attempts will not even change the mind of a single Pakistani or even most of the Indians.

You thought I was trying to change your mind by posting this article?

 

[xMustiiej70]

Turks are born warriors.
nothing can stop us.
go gather your european allies.
and this time..
try it with usa included.
maybe you 1% change of entering canakkale.

 

[Forrest Griffin]

Solomon2, it doesn't matter what you post, the end of Israel is in sight, it is now a question on how we get there. Israel will cease to be a majority Jewish state because of simple demographics. When that happens, it will be Palestine again. I only hope for a peaceful solution sooner than later so the likelyhood of violence when that shift happens is minimal.

 

[forcetrip]

You are comparing this...

to another evil .. Sure this was a political move by the turks and iranians,(not that they did, just for sake of argument) .. and you counter that with extreme violence and deem it justified? Why not just torpedo the ship like the North Koreans next time and deny it. Worked just as well ..

 

[deepak75]

Solomon why you waste your time posting these things.

I can guarantee you that your attempts will not even change the mind of a single Pakistani or even most of the Indians.

It is strange that Pakistan has the biggest problem of religious extremism and violence in the world and yet does not appreciate the concern that arises with the now right wing Islamic leaning of the Turkish politics.

Remember, Portugal can be a cheaper manufacturing destination for EU, Spain has enough relatively poor population to provide competitive manpower cost and take away most of manufacturing from Turkey. Joining EU was the right way to go for them. With recent actions, Turkey has only proven the fears of France, Germany and the like in EU of the religious extremism that could pervade the Turkish society anyday and hence proven right their decision to desist from allowing Turkey to join EU over the years.

The Turks even today draw strength from their association with the Western world otherwise, go to middle east and also go to Istanbul and find out the views that both have for each other. I go to both regions and I know first hand. When you talk to the Turks, even an allusion to similiarity in simple things such as architecture with Arabs brings words or resistance and disagreement.

Turkey is a beautiful place with such a fun loving and dynamic and vibrant population. My friends in Istanbul rue that all this will change with time. Something that they explained to me in the last visit as a subtle change happening:

In Turkey historically people have been saying Marhaba which is quite a religion neutral term for them, but over recent years, my friends tell me that more and more now say Salaam-weli-akum.

It is up to the Turks to take their country where they want as it is up to the Pakistani's today. But for the sake of world peace, I would hope that the religious extremism does not take hold there.

 

[humblehobbes]

Turks are born warriors.
nothing can stop us.
go gather your european allies.
and this time..
try it with usa included.
maybe you 1% change of entering canakkale.

 

[xMustiiej70]

It is strange that Pakistan has the biggest problem of religious extremism and violence in the world and yet does not appreciate the concern that arises with the now right wing Islamic leaning of the Turkish politics.

Remember, Portugal can be a cheaper manufacturing destination for EU, Spain has enough relatively poor population to provide competitive manpower cost and take away most of manufacturing from Turkey. Joining EU was the right way to go for them. With recent actions, Turkey has only proven the fears of France, Germany and the like in EU of the religious extremism that could pervade the Turkish society anyday and hence proven right their decision to desist from allowing Turkey to join EU over the years.

The Turks even today draw strength from their association with the Western world otherwise, go to middle east and also go to Istanbul and find out the views that both have for each other. I go to both regions and I know first hand. When you talk to the Turks, even an allusion to similiarity in simple things such as architecture with Arabs brings words or resistance and disagreement.

Turkey is a beautiful place with such a fun loving and dynamic and vibrant population. My friends in Istanbul rue that all this will change with time. Something that they explained to me in the last visit as a subtle change happening:

In Turkey historically people have been saying Marhaba which is quite a religion neutral term for them, but over recent years, my friends tell me that more and more now say Salaam-weli-akum.

It is up to the Turks to take their country where they want as it is up to the Pakistani's today. But for the sake of world peace, I would hope that the religious extremism does not take hold there.

dont worry..
turkey is pissed at isreal because of the genocide on the poor arabs.
and the fact that after we change ourselves(which we supposed not to because we are turks) and after we work like dogs to be fit in eu that got rejected so many times. and the fact they extend the talks about it by years.
turkey is now more frustrated.
and the fact that usa keeps defending israel.

 

[deepak75]

dont worry..
turkey is pissed at isreal because of the genocide on the poor arabs.
and the fact that after we change ourselves(which we supposed not to because we are turks) and after we work like dogs to be fit in eu that got rejected so many times. and the fact they extend the talks about it by years.
turkey is now more frustrated.and the fact that usa keeps defending israel.

Let me share with you a simple fact. Turkey is on the way to become THE manufacturing destination for goods to be consumed in Europe. I have myself moved contract manufacturing for my organization's South Europe market business to a big drinks company in Turkey.

Now, you need to understand another point. It does not matter if you were not part of EU all these days or may not have been for more years. What is important is that all manufacturing was slowly moving to Turkey due to the lower cost of manufacturing. That would have benefitted only Turkey. There is no other nation in the world that today sits with a market such as EU with an ageing population and yet with increasing dispensable income. And just what is missing. The Euro? Good that you did not have it else the malls in Istanbul will now be less having footfall.

You are losing a goldmine with this approach of aleinating yourself from EU. The Arabs will not buy from you. Across the border Iraq has nothing to buy from you except for expecting to pay for the heavey 6 car security detail for even a day's visit to Baghdad. Iran's economy will be strong by themselves.

The point is that in the current right wing jingoism, Turkey is shooting itself in its economic foot. That is my take my friend with my limited business exposure in the middle east region.

But then, it is the priorities I guess.....

 

[xMustiiej70]

Let me share with you a simple fact. Turkey is on the way to become THE manufacturing destination for goods to be consumed in Europe. I have myself moved contract manufacturing for my organization's South Europe market business to a big drinks company in Turkey.

Now, you need to understand another point. It does not matter if you were not part of EU all these days or may not have been for more years. What is important is that all manufacturing was slowly moving to Turkey due to the lower cost of manufacturing. That would have benefitted only Turkey. There is no other nation in the world that today sits with a market such as EU with an ageing population and yet with increasing dispensable income. And just what is missing. The Euro? Good that you did not have it else the malls in Istanbul will now be less having footfall.

You are losing a goldmine with this approach of aleinating yourself from EU. The Arabs will not buy from you. Across the border Iraq has nothing to buy from you except for expecting to pay for the heavey 6 car security detail for even a day's visit to Baghdad. Iran's economy will be strong by themselves.

The point is that in the current right wing jingoism, Turkey is shooting itself in its economic foot. That is my take my friend with my limited business exposure in the middle east region.

But then, it is the priorities I guess.....

How about turkey has is own union?
The Turkish Union?
People rather wants to invest in there.
big countries like russia is part of it.
and yet we dont do anyting about that orginization.
Turkey dont need eu indeed.
turkey dont want israel.
and turkish gov't dont wait arabs.
because they are stupid( no offence).
they cont do something wise about their money.
high buildings and unique buildings dont make your country succesful.
it will be overwhelmed by stupid unfaithfull tourists.

 

[Solomon2]

Solomon2, it doesn't matter what you post, the end of Israel is in sight -

People have been saying that for thousands of years, among them the Pharaohs, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Romans, the Crusaders, and the Nazis. Why not ask them for details?

Nevertheless, the point of the post was to highlight the working explanation of America's political class as to what is really happening in Turkey.

 

[Admiral]

Gentelmen, this is my first post here and i greet you all.

We all agree that Turkey is doing something in middleeast the others cant admit. this looks unusual because so far Turkey was a very easy going ally for the western society.

There are things made us to follow a multifaceted politics. The first reason is Turkey's so called EU membership. we have been waiting at the edge of the union, but even eastern block countries became a part of union and Turkey still waits...
The second reason is the collapse of so called ''Turkey-Israel'' alliance. after the 2. gulf war, Turkish goverment noticed that we cant remain as a mid-sized country with a passive-reactive role in the region. The pkk terrorists supported by israel and usa were hitting Turkish border and killing our citizens. The thing we are trying to do is to defend our homeland and the defence of homeland starts from Baghdat, Damascus, Tblisi and Bosnia.

i wonder something, israel is tiny country. with a very small population... But israel can see the right in himself to attack a convoy in Sudan, strike to iran, interfare in Turkey's domestic policies. and the strangest thing is; when Turkey wants to design middle east according to its own strategy, EU and USA + Israel say: Turkey is changing its direction... No we dont change our direction. the thing happening in Turkey is people discover their historical roots again. we are tired of being played-toyed by western club. we are tired of their insincerity and hypocrisy. there are millions on the streets sharing the same feelings and desires.

Also being back to insincerenity and hypocrisy; Israel is a zionist country. they take their power from jewish orthadox society. even if some of the zionists are not interested in religious things, zionism is the sickness of jews and judaism. We all know it. everybody knows it but anybody doesnt blame israel with extremism... is this logical?

i ask to the brothers from india blaming us with changing the direction of the country. if you were in the same situation, wouldnt you say enough? what would you think? This is not something about AKP. this is about the will of the people who voted that party.(%47 of the people...)

And about the people like Solomon. i recommend everybody to leave him alone with his sick mentality and hypocricy.

Regards

 

[deepak75]

How about turkey has is own union?
The Turkish Union?
People rather wants to invest in there.
big countries like russia is part of it.
and yet we dont do anyting about that orginization.
Turkey dont need eu indeed.
turkey dont want israel.
and turkish gov't dont wait arabs.
because they are stupid( no offence).
they cont do something wise about their money.
high buildings and unique buildings dont make your country succesful.
it will be overwhelmed by stupid unfaithfull tourists.

OK, this has to be my last discussion with you on this. Our business understanding is on different planes.

The only thing that differentiates Turkey from the other Islamic nations is that it has development without being a primary economy, which means that its exports have maximum composition of value added goods and services. That is what differentiates it from the well developed, Arab countries.

This happened over the years because of the path of putting development above religion was chosen by Ataturk and he is a very revered person even to this day amongst all sections of Turks that I meet up with.

So now with the change in focus from the development oriented market approach and being a strong manufacturing base for EU, and abandoning it in favour or TU or whatever union you may want to create, the first thought that should come to your mind is that the economic growth is only as strong as the market it services. In your own words and given my limited understanding, I will have to agree with you, Turkey will have no benefit creating a trading block with nations surrounding it or in the immediate vicinity. So who will you trade with.

The importance of having a market can be gauged from the fact that even a 5% increase in dispensable income in India gets a cheer from consumables organizations of the world because even if 1 extra pack sells annually to one individual, it is enough to throw the top lines in the air.

So, Turkey cannot exist in the political or the economic environment in isolation or in a vaccum. It needs to exploit its geo-political location or sitting right next to what is today the richest market in the world with deceleration in its own manufacturing. With the increasing religious extremism leanings in its political space, that market amongst other several beneficial factors is just moving that bit away everytime.

However, if the EU breaks. It will be your godsent opportunity. And that is an increasingly possibility. But how much of your present can you bet for an uncertain future?

My 2 Kurus my friend.