Turkey rethinking its place in the world

[Jigs]

Soloman why do you keep posting articles ? Do you feel the need to find articles where other people agree with you and post them here against the overwhelming number that disagree with you so you can feel better about it ?

Admit it what Israel did was wrong. The ship was in international waters and instead of disabling the boat (Or waiting for it to enter their waters) they decided to take it by force. When force(especially illegal force) is used there is generally a response of force. Which resulted in commandos getting beat up which Israel has now made the sole reason of why this whole mess started when they were the ones that provoked it in the first place.

It is like me taking a gun and a stick. Finding a snake and poking it till it strikes then i shoot it. Who's fault is that ?

Also could someone explain why Israel decided it was needed to take the ship by force in international waters ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then people ask the question why is Turkey now anti Israel ? Where did this all start ? It started when Turkey finally understood the BS that other countries ignore and switched sides. When your making progress in peace talks between Israel and Syria and one side decides to start heavily bombing something that they know would result in a collapse of such talks they would think twice before doing it. Yet Israel did this and they started to lose Turkey because of it (and frankly they could give two shits about it) since rather then peace on their agenda a mass bombing of Gaza made more sense. Then they decided they needed to announce new settlements which made Americas job of trying to broker peace even worse with Joe bidden getting angry. (Then the secret meeting with Obama happened where i am sure he told them it was fine and that Joe is just ) Now they did this.


So Soloman maybe you should stop posting articles trying to negatively justify why Turkey switched sides(and blame them for this mess) instead find some that detail why Israel keeps doing the crap they do. Blaming Turkey isn't going to work.

 

[Solomon2]

Are you talking about the state of Israel or the jewish people. They are two different things you know.

Almost all the Jews of Pakistan have been chased out of the country and into Israel, so for a Pakistani the two are the same.

 

[Solomon2]

It's much like World War II.In the sense that Germany sank hospital and aid vessel whipping other nations that helped mobilize the anti-Axis forces which included Indian Forces as well.

No ship was sunk, nor were these hospital ships. It appears that only the attacking militants were killed. When the Allies supplied humanitarian aid to the civilian populace of Nazi-occupied Holland during WWII it was negotiated through the Red Cross to ensure safe passage.

 

[TechLahore]

Almost all the Jews of Pakistan have been chased out of the country and into Israel, so for a Pakistani the two are the same.

This above is a wonderful example that illustrates your rigid and exceptionally biased thinking. You are so desperate to make reality conform to your world view that it is now becoming absolutely comical. In case you didn't know, you are no one to define for Pakistanis what their views are.

The Jewish people and the state of Israel are two completely separate entities. The latter terrorizes millions in the name of the former, but that doesn't make the Jewish people complicit or responsible. The burden of Israel's hegemonic and terrorist policies are solely for the state of Israel to bear. And that it will. As for the Jewish people, we are both from Abraham and we have nothing against them. I can't think of many people alive today that I admire more than Dr. Norman Finkelstein, Adam Shapiro and other brave jews.

P.S> Our Italian Jewish friends who have been living in Lahore for the last many years, whose children I grew up playing with, will undoubtedly be amused to learn that their existence in Pakistan is actually illusory and they have in fact been chased away to Israel, but they just don't know it. Sounds like fiction straight out of an episode of "Lost" to me...

 

[T-Faz]

Almost all the Jews of Pakistan have been chased out of the country and into Israel, so for a Pakistani the two are the same.

What kind of pathetic statement is this, I have noticed you getting very offensive in your posts, research something properly before typing factually incorrect statements. There were only ever a few thousand jews in Pakistan and to this day we still have a number of them.

Federal Baboos include 10 Jews

By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: Whether you believe it or not, the federal government civil servants include ten declared Jews.

Generally it is considered that Pakistan, which contains minorities following diverse religious beliefs, does not have Jew population but the 12th census of civil servants proves it, otherwise.

There is no assessment of exact population of Jews in Pakistan but the federal civil servants' census report confirmed that 10 of the total federal civil servants are declared Jews. Without showing their names, as it seems suitable to ensure their safety and security, the report says that the ten Jews include one officer in BPS 18; one in BPS 17; four in BPS 16; one in BPS 14 and three in BPS 13. There is, however, no Jew serving in senior grades of BPS 19 to 22.

According to the official data, an overwhelming majority (97.5 per cent) of the federal civil servants are Muslims. There are 508 (0.2 pc) Ahmadis, 422 (0.2pc) Hindus (caste and non-caste), 24 Buddhists, 3,819 (1.6pc) Christians, 10 Jews, 12 Parsis and 45 belonging to other different religions. Interestingly 0.5pc employees have not disclosed their religion.

The strength of Muslim employees in BPS 19 to 22 is 97.7pc; BS 17 to 18 is 97.9pc; BS 16 is 97.7pc; BS 11 to 15 is 98.3pc; BS 3 to 10 is 98.7pc and BS 1 to 2 is 95.1pc. The statistic shows that strength of Ahmadis, generally known as Qadianis, in BS 19 to 22 is 0.9pc; in BS 17 and 18 is 0.9pc; in BS 16 is 0.8pc; in BS 11 to 15 is 0.3pc; in BS 3 to 10 is 0.1pc and in BS 1 to 2 is 0.1pc.

The statistics about Qadiani employees shows that they mostly hold senior positions in the federal civilian bureaucracy. The percentage of Qadiani officials shrinks as one observes their number against lower tiers. However, it is expected that most of the 0.5pc of the federal civil servants, who did not disclose their religion, are also Qadianis.

The BPS-wise analysis shows that Hindus are nine BS 19 to 22 officers in the federal bureaucracy. They are in BS-17 to 18; nine in BS-16; 39 in BS-11 to 15; 85 in BS-3 to 10 and 254 in BS-1 to 2.

The analysis about Buddhist employees reveals that out of the total 24 civil servants belonging to this religion, one is serving against BS-19; one in BS-18; one in BS-14; one in BS-9; four in BS-7; one in BS-6; four in BS 5; two in BS-2 and nine in BS-1.

Scrutiny of the Christian employees indicates that an overwhelming majority of them ie 2,784 out of the total 3,819 are in BS-1 and BS-2. In other scales they are: 613 in BS-3 to 10; 307 in BS-11 to 15; 77 in BS-16; 32 in BS-17 to 18; four in BS-19; and one each in BS-20 and BS-21. The study of federal civil servants also shows that a total of 12 civil servants belong to Parsi religion. These include one in BS-18; one in BS-17; three in BS-16; one in BS-11; one in BS-7 and five in BS-1.

About the prospects of upward mobility of the civil servants belonging to minorities, a senior official of the establishment division said the government employees have equal opportunities of promotion as enjoyed by their Muslims colleagues. The establishment division is of the view that any discrimination on the basis of religion or caste etc is unconstitutional. It is said that quite a large number of officers belonging to minorities have made it to the top echelons of the civilian bureaucracy and are given important assignments.

Here are a few pictures of a Synagogue in Pakistan that the government paid for.

Jewish heritage outside Israel - Page 4 - SkyscraperCity

Scroll around and you will find it.

Here is another article that cites an article written by a Pakistani Jew.

Surprise! There are still Jews in Pakistan | Jerusalem Post Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET

You continue to go in circles in complete denial that you just seems like a stance of an utter and completely brainwashed person. It is clear from your offensive arguments that when you cannot counter a claim, your argument start to take a pattern where hidden insults are the norm.

Do not post statements that hold no merit just for the sake of your argument, back up you claims with references.

 

[Solomon2]

Soloman why do you keep posting articles ? Do you feel the need to find articles where other people agree with you and post them here against the overwhelming number that disagree with you so you can feel better about it ?

I would have Pakistanis know the evil they support rather than wallow in ignorance, real or pretended.

The ship was in international waters -

This is getting repetitive. The ship was on a declared humanitarian mission to a belligerent. Under international law Israel had the right to board it even in international waters.

It is like me taking a gun and a stick. Finding a snake and poking it till it strikes then i shoot it. Who's fault is that ?

You went looking for the snake. If you were an Israeli boarding the flotilla, the "snakes" would have been looking for you.

rather then peace on their agenda a mass bombing of Gaza made more sense...

Now you're changing the subject. Seek a different thread.

 

[Solomon2]

This above is a wonderful example that illustrates your rigid and exceptionally biased thinking....The Jewish people and the state of Israel are two completely separate entities. The latter terrorizes millions in the name of the former -

Either you don't know what you're talking about, or you are actively engaged in deceit.

The burden of Israel's hegemonic and terrorist policies are solely for the state of Israel to bear. And that it will.

The hegemony bit is indeed a burden. There are no "terrorist policies"; that's just a label and all the proofs presented so far fall far short.

As for the Jewish people, we are both from Abraham and we have nothing against them.

The Pakistani Jews are pretty much gone, TL. That is evidence enough.

I can't think of many people alive today that I admire more than Dr. Norman Finkelstein, Adam Shapiro and other brave jews.

They are not brave. They are evidence of the diversity Jews tolerate. Every thought that broke an old convention to become a new one was once an extreme. That does not mean, however, that every extreme thought deserves to become convention.

P.S> Our Italian Jewish friends who have been living in Lahore for the last many years, whose children I grew up playing with, will undoubtedly be amused to learn that their existence in Pakistan is actually illusory and they have in fact been chased away to Israel, but they just don't know it. Sounds like fiction straight out of an episode of "Lost" to me...

As you said, they are Italians, not Pakistanis.

P.S.: I grew up playing with the children of Pakistani diplomats - until the day they woke up Bangladeshis.

 

[Solomon2]

What kind of pathetic statement is this, I have noticed you getting very offensive in your posts

Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's a bummer.

research something properly before typing factually incorrect statements. There were only ever a few thousand jews in Pakistan and to this day we still have a number of them.

I'd be surprised if the number exceeds sixty.

Here are a few pictures of a Synagogue in Pakistan that the government paid for.

Over twenty years after the gov't demolished the previous one in favor of a shopping center. The remianing Jews were thus denied a center to pray, study and conduct services for all that time.

Here is another article that cites an article written by a Pakistani Jew.

Thanks, but despite the headline it mostly describes the decline of the Jewish community.

You continue to go in circles in complete denial

I am in denial? That is a serious charge! Make a list so someone as simple-minded as I can understand it, please.

Do not post statements that hold no merit just for the sake of your argument, back up you claims with references.

If I didn't have a link to something, please point it out and I'll provide a suitable one upon request.

 

[Jigs]

I would have Pakistanis know the evil they support rather than wallow in ignorance, real or pretended.

This is getting repetitive. The ship was on a declared humanitarian mission to a belligerent. Under international law Israel had the right to board it even in international waters.

You went looking for the snake. If you were an Israeli boarding the flotilla, the "snakes" would have been looking for you.

Now you're changing the subject. Seek a different thread.

What do you mean i am changing the subject it is the main one that started Turkey's shift away from Israel. Did you even watch the Davos conference with PM Erdogan and what happened ?

Why do you keep bringing Pakistan into this it is about Turkey you are the one going off subject here and provoking other members in this thread.

It seems you didn't understand what i said. Israel went looking for the snake. They then found the snake. They then provoke said snake and then they killed the snake. How could someone say they want peace after something like that ?

Why don't you discuss why Israel used a violent method to try to take the ship over ? I mean there were so many different ways they could have reacted in which violence would not have occurred.
Actually discussing this is pointless since you label a defending force on a aid ship as militants.

I listed the reasons why Turkey has now shifted Away from Israel. Let me also say i am not even a supporter of the AKP and a CHP supporter. I myself do not believe that this was just a AKP matter and was one the Turkish people support. The largest protest for the Gaza bombings came from Turkey. The only heavy ties Turkey and Israel ever ( had under other parties) wasn't on the Palestine issues but they were one of military ties and to a lesser extent tourism. Turkey was always friendly to Israel and they took it for granted. Everyone forgets the large immigrant Jew population that Turkey took in after WW2. Everyone forgets Turkey was one of the first nation to except Israel as a state. Yet when Israel is the one that Fu*ks it up. It isn't Turkey rethinking its place in in the world but on Israel. It also isn't to appeal to spineless Arab states who don't even have half the balls Turkey does. Only after the mess with Israel did Egypt even open their side up. Why not before ? They need dead people to justify a move that Israel might not like when it is their own border ?

Turkey isn't evil i think your just an idiot. If we were evil we would have bombed northen Iraq to nothing but we understand how to control ourselves unlike a extremely violent and aggressive state like Israel.

 

[T-Faz]

Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's a bummer.

It is isn't it, the loosing argument is such that it borders on the stupid, much like what you continue to do.

I'd be surprised if the number exceeds sixty.

Come here and verify it yourself or provide references for your statement.

Over twenty years after thegov't demolished the previous one in favor of a shopping center. The remianing Jews were thus denied a center to pray, study and conduct services for all that time.

What was demolished has been replaced by this and here is a statement from a Pakistani jew who differs from the view that you seem to have been indoctrinated into you.

“although he and his fellow Jews there could practice their religion openly if they wished to” they have chosen to live a life of anonymity. Mr Akhir is quoted as saying that “We prefer our own small world and, since we are happy and content, we never felt there was a need to express ourselves. ... We don’t want to let anyone make political use of us. We enjoy living in this simplicity and anonymity.”

Thanks, but despite the headline it mostly describes the decline of the Jewish community.

Apart from that propaganda hogwash produced by Israeli newspaper continuously citing unreferenced sources that you would cite, I would like you to prove to me that Jews have declined in Pakistan, the highest number recorded was 2500 in early 1900's but apart from that no other data exists. 0.7% of Pakistani's belongs to 'other' religions which could be used as an indicator. 0.7% of 166,111,487 is equals to 11,627,80, and from this number you can guess how many of them could be jews.

I am in denial? That is a serious charge! Make a list so someone as simple-minded as I can understand it, please.

The list is too long and I do not have the time of the patience to deal with your fallacious arguments.

If I didn't have a link to something, please point it out and I'll provide a suitable one upon request.

Link to your statement that there are no Jews in Pakistan as you stated earlier, link to your statement that only 60 jews exist in Pakistan. What surprises me the most is your hard headed and stereotypical views, alas such is shared by many like you and that is alarming.

 

[Solomon2]

What do you mean i am changing the subject it is the main one that started Turkey's shift away from Israel. Did you even watch the Davos conference with PM Erdogan and what happened ?

Refresh my memory, please.

Why do you keep bringing Pakistan into this it is about Turkey you are the one going off subject here and provoking other members in this thread.

"Provoking" them to...?

It seems you didn't understand what i said. Israel went looking for the snake. They then found the snake. They then provoke said snake and then they killed the snake. How could someone say they want peace after something like that ?

They didn't go looking for a snake; the boarding party expected peaceful protesters, as they had every right to.

I listed the reasons why Turkey has now shifted Away from Israel.

U.S. analysts have other ideas - that's why I posted them.

I myself do not believe that this was just a AKP matter and was one the Turkish people support. The largest protest for the Gaza bombings came from Turkey...Yet when Israel is the one that Fu*ks it up.

The Israelis were very surprised. That doesn't mean Turkey wasn't at fault, does it? Did you ever think that Erdogan is carrying on the way he is to cover up HIS error?

Only after the mess with Israel did Egypt even open their side up. Why not before ?

Good question.

Turkey isn't evil i think your just an idiot.

Neither were the Germans under Hitler - at first! Imo Erdogan is now taking an evil course by supporting Hamas over Israel and peace-loving Arabs in Gaza.

 

[Admiral]

There is one thing more. Israel politicians scream and whine like kids about Turkey's present position. They say ''Turkey has shifted side- Turkey became one of israel's enemies.''

Let me ask you, Israel is such a country that ''it'' can use any tool- any way to reach it's goal. And if Israel or USA had enough capability to hit iran, to change the regime in iran, they would already do it, they wouldnt ask anybody for this... now they seek common mind, cooperation in UN to keep up the pressure on persians. will it work? of course it wont work.
the thing i wanna say is, if israel was capable enough to stop Turkey's present activities and efforts, it would already do it. by force or by diplomacy... none of them works now. then what does it mean?
1. israel is not taken serious by Turkish Goverment since operation cast lead. we dont believe in you anymore and dont trust your promises.
2. israel doesnt have enough power and capability for a long term war against iran. (nevermind Turkey...)

if you are strong enough, you dont threaten anybody. you just do the thing in your mind.

The present situation of israel looks like a kid who was spoiled by usa. When it couldnt get the thing it wanted to get, it started to cry and blame others with silly reasons.

Now here i say, please stop iran. please hit them. if you have enough power please attack Turkey either. Neither you can attack iran nor prevent them from doing their own business. So what do you do? Israeli politicians cry and shout just like you do... a pathetic - pathalogic situation...

Begone kid...

 

[Jigs]

For those that don't know when Turkey and Israel relations started going to ****. This is what started it.

After this started the decline because going into this meeting all the tough modding turkey was doing between Syria and Israel failed after the bombings started. This is also when the Arab relations with Turkey went up since they now found a nation they could hide behind and speak through.

Here is the full video.

 

[Forrest Griffin]

"Perhaps most galling about the overall defense of the raid is the constant invocation of self-defense. Everything Israel does is always done in self-defense, no matter how excessive, disproportionate, unnecessary, wrong or aggressive it is. When everything becomes a matter of self-defense and the proper distinctions between actual legtimate self-defense and reckless excesses are erased, pretty soon most of the rest of the world won’t pay any attention to Israeli claims of self-defense even when they are legitimate. There was not much of a reservoir of goodwill for Israel in the world after the war in Lebanon, but successive Israeli governments have done everything they can to exhaust what little remains in that reservoir. We are not watching Israel defend itself. We are watching Israel slowly destroy itself."


Eunomia Self-Destructive “Self-Defense”

 

[INDIAISM]

The weirdest part is that when Turkish Pm visited germany.
germany couldn't say no to turkish PM demands.
such as turkish langauges in german schools.
and stuff.

they said we want to have full business and relationship with eachother.
yeah full trade partners and stuff but no membership.
i think its because of turkish military power and the religious.
and also the immigrants.

Now reality check according to theworld bank gdp of germany is around 3.65 trillion $ and turkies gdp is around 800 billion$ so now just tell me one thing that how much money will it take for germany to improve their airforce and navy...........