Turkey rethinking its place in the world

[Jigs]

Now reality check according to theworld bank gdp of germany is around 3.65 trillion $ and turkies gdp is around 800 billion$ so now just tell me one thing that how much money will it take for germany to improve their airforce and navy...........

That GDP of 3.65 trillion was made possible by the foundation of the Immigrant workers that came from Turkey and the will of the German people. I suggest you look up why they went to Germany.

No need to turn this into a Germany Vs Turkey deal even if their current administration is anti EU membership we are both huge partners and allies.

 

[mikkix]

That GDP of 3.65 trillion was made possible by the foundation of the Immigrant workers that came from Turkey and the will of the German people. I suggest you look up why they went to Germany.

No need to turn this into a Germany Vs Turkey deal even if their current administration is anti EU membership we are both huge partners and allies.

Forget Indiasm,,,
he is a hawk....

 

[Admiral]

Forget Indiasm,,,
he is a hawk....

He is a sparrow trying to fly with german wings

in fact there is a better word in Turkish can meet this but no need to pronounce it here. All the Turks got it i guess

 

[TechLahore]

Either you don't know what you're talking about, or you are actively engaged in deceit.

It is you who are here trying to defend an indefensible, terrorist regime. Your pro-Israel bent is such that even your fellow Americans have expressed incredulity, on this very forum, at the extent to which you are willing to go to pay homage at the altar of Israel.

The hegemony bit is indeed a burden. There are no "terrorist policies"; that's just a label and all the proofs presented so far fall far short.

Well, the world doesn't agree. If it weren't for US vetoes Israel would be the most sanctioned/resolution-burdened regime on earth. Continue to defend the terrorist regime and allow dozens and hundreds of people here to keep responding with further evidence and further proof of Israeli atrocities.

A regime that would use white phosphorous shells against civilians, a regime that would imprison millions behind barbed wire and high walls, a regime that would drive military bulldozers over young peace activists, crushing them to death... that is a regime you seek to defend on the most indefensible of issues. Rachel Corie was an American, no? But does her death even mean anything to you? For your loyalty clearly lies with the murderous regime in Israel.

Gaza and Israel conflict

They are not brave. They are evidence of the diversity Jews tolerate. Every thought that broke an old convention to become a new one was once an extreme. That does not mean, however, that every extreme thought deserves to become convention.

You've got to be pretty damn brave to tolerate the kind of virulent nonsense and physical threats Zionists subject these people to. Here's an ordinary american just trying to politely ask Zionistst in Israel a question... he's not even condemning Israel, and he's close to getting lynched. If these are examples of tolerance, then clearly you are definitionally challenged.

Please go to 48 seconds in the video below. This is an exceptionally wonderful example of Zionist tolerance. Hundreds of these outbursts and incidences of physical violence against christians, muslims and any who would question or oppose Zionists are documented on video.

Heck, there's even a move to label Jews who speak up against Zionism anti-semites!!!! And we all know how that label is (ab)used to shut people up, harass them and create fear, uncertainty and doubt. This label is too often used as an instrument of persecution now. Oppose Israel, or oppose Zionism and you are an anti-Semite to be equated with Hitler!

American Jewish Committee - Anti-Semitism - New York Times

As you said, they are Italians, not Pakistanis.

Evasion once again. Oh well.

The point is that they are jewish. And happily living in Lahore.

P.S.: I grew up playing with the children of Pakistani diplomats - until the day they woke up Bangladeshis.

Good for you. Bangladeshis are wonderful people.

 

[Rocketsingh]

It is you who are here trying to defend an indefensible, terrorist regime. Your pro-Israel bent is such that even your fellow Americans have expressed incredulity, on this very forum, at the extent to which you are willing to go to pay homage at the altar of Israel.



Well, the world doesn't agree. If it weren't for US vetoes Israel would be the most sanctioned/resolution-burdened regime on earth. Continue to defend the terrorist regime and allow dozens and hundreds of people here to keep responding with further evidence and further proof of Israeli atrocities.

A regime that would use white phosphorous shells against civilians, a regime that would imprison millions behind barbed wire and high walls, a regime that would drive military bulldozers over young peace activists, crushing them to death... that is a regime you seek to defend on the most indefensible of issues. Rachel Corie was an American, no? But does her death even mean anything to you? For your loyalty clearly lies with the murderous regime in Israel.

Gaza and Israel conflict



You've got to be pretty damn brave to tolerate the kind of virulent nonsense and physical threats Zionists subject these people to. Here's an ordinary american just trying to politely ask Zionistst in Israel a question... he's not even condemning Israel, and he's close to getting lynched. If these are examples of tolerance, then clearly you are definitionally challenged.

YouTube - Where In the World Is Osama Bin Laden scene

Please go to 48 seconds in the video below. This is an exceptionally wonderful example of Zionist tolerance. Hundreds of these outbursts and incidences of physical violence against christians, muslims and any who would question or oppose Zionists are documented on video.

YouTube - Jewish Hate Caught on tape

Heck, there's even a move to label Jews who speak up against Zionism anti-semites!!!! And we all know how that label is (ab)used to shut people up, harass them and create fear, uncertainty and doubt. This label is too often used as an instrument of persecution now. Oppose Israel, or oppose Zionism and you are an anti-Semite to be equated with Hitler!

American Jewish Committee - Anti-Semitism - New York Times




Evasion once again. Oh well.

The point is that they are jewish. And happily living in Lahore.



Good for you. Bangladeshis are wonderful people.

videos shows israel is a bigger problem than wat it is showing today.they cant live with anyone.

we killed jesus

 

[Jigs]

The 1:20 part in the first video is too funny. Then when the guard comes he is like jewish ? Jewish ? and pushes him too.

 

[asq]

When I asked the prime minister about stories alleging a U.S.-Israeli murder and organ selling scheme in Iraq, he could not bring himself to condemn them. WSJ 6/3/2010

Israeli special forces and their commanders were apparently shocked to find their boarding attempt on the Mavi ("Blue") Marmara met with violence. They should not have been. I have no doubt that the Turkish "peace activists" aboard the ship regarded Israeli troops as something akin to the second coming of Hitler's SS.

To follow Turkish discourse in recent years has been to follow a national decline into madness. Imagine 80 million or so people sitting at the crossroads between Europe and Asia. They don't speak an Indo-European language and perhaps hundreds of thousands of them have meaningful access to any outside media. What information most of them get is filtered through a secular press that makes Italian communists look right wing by comparison and an increasing number of state (i.e., Islamist) influenced outfits. Topics A and B (or B and A, it doesn't really matter) have been the malign influence on the world of Israel and the United States.

For example, while there was much hand-wringing in our own media about "Who lost Turkey?" when U.S. forces were denied entry to Iraq from the north in 2003, no such introspection was evident in Ankara and Istanbul. Instead, Turks were fed a steady diet of imagined atrocities perpetrated by U.S. forces in Iraq, often with the implication that they were acting as muscle for the Jews. The newspaper Yeni Safak, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's daily read, claimed that Americans were tossing so many Iraqi bodies into the Euphrates that local mullahs had issued a fatwa ordering residents not to eat the fish. The same paper repeatedly claimed that the U.S. used chemical weapons in Fallujah. And it reported that Israeli soldiers had been deployed alongside U.S. forces in Iraq and that U.S. forces were harvesting the innards of dead Iraqis for sale on the U.S. "organ market."

The secular Hurriyet newspaper, meanwhile, accused Israeli soldiers of assassinating Turkish security personnel in Mosul and said the U.S. was starting an occupation of (Muslim) Indonesia under the guise of humanitarian assistance. Then U.S. ambassador to Turkey Eric Edelman actually felt the need to organize a conference call to explain to the Turkish media that secret U.S. nuclear testing did not cause the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. One of the craziest theories circulating in Ankara was that the U.S. was colonizing the Middle East because its scientists were aware of an impending asteroid strike on North America.

The Mosul and organ harvesting stories were soon brought together in a hit Turkish movie called "Valley of the Wolves," which I saw in 2006 at a mall in Ankara. My poor Turkish was little barrier to understanding. The body parts of dead Iraqis could be clearly seen being placed into crates marked New York and Tel Aviv. It is no exaggeration to say that such anti-Semitic fare had not been played to mass audiences in Europe since the Third Reich.

When I interviewed Prime Minister Erdogan (one of several encounters) in 2006, he was unabashed about the narrative.

Erdogan: "I believe the people who made this movie took media reports as their basis . . . for example, Abu Ghraib prison—we have seen this on TV, and now we are watching Guantanamo Bay in the world media, and of course it could be that this movie was prepared under these influences."

Me: "But do you believe that many Turks have such a view of America, that we're the kind of people who'd go to Iraq and kill people to take their organs?"

Erdogan: "These kind of things happen in the world. If it's not happening in Iraq, then its happening in other countries."

Me: "Which kind of things? Killing people to take their organs?"

Erdogan: "I'm not saying they are being killed. . . . There are people in poverty who use this as a means to get money."

I was somewhat taken aback that the prime minister could not bring himself to condemn a fictional blood libel. I should not have been. He and his party have traded on America and Israel hatred ever since. There can be little doubt the Turkish flotilla that challenged the Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza was organized with his approval, if not encouragement. Mr. Erodogan's foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, is a proponent of a philosophy which calls on Turkey to loosen Western ties to the U.S., NATO and the European Union and seek its own sphere of influence to the east. Turkey's recent deal to help Iran enrich uranium should come as no surprise.

Sadly, Turkey has had no credible opposition since its corrupt secular parties lost to Mr. Erdogan in 2002. The Ataturk-inspired People's Republican Party has just thrown off one leader who was constantly railing about CIA plots for another who wants to expand state spending as government coffers collapse everywhere else in the word. What's more, Turks remain blind to their manifest hypocrisies. Ask how they would feel if other countries arranged an "aid" convoy (akin to the Gaza flotilla) for their own Kurdish minority and you'll be met with dumb stares.

Turkey's blind spot on the Kurdish issue is especially striking when you recall that Turkey nearly invaded Syria in 1998 for sponsoring Kurdish terrorism. Kurdish separatist leader Abdullah Ocalan then bounced around the capitals of Europe, only to be captured in Kenya and handed over to the Turks by the CIA. Turkey's antiterror alliance with Israel and the U.S. couldn't have been more natural.

Yet Prime Minister Erdogan was one of the first world leaders to recognize the legitimacy of the Hamas government in Gaza. And now he is upping the rhetoric after provoking Israel on Hamas's behalf. It is Israel, he says, that has shocked "the conscience of humanity." Foreign Minister Davutoglu is challenging the U.S: "We expect full solidarity with us. It should not seem like a choice between Turkey and Israel. It should be a choice between right and wrong."

Please. Good leaders work to defuse tensions in situations like this, not to escalate them. No American should be deceived as to the true motives of these men: They are demagogues appealing to the worst elements in their own country and the broader Middle East.

The obvious answer to the question of "Who lost Turkey?"—the Western-oriented Turkey, that is—is the Turks did. The outstanding question is how much damage they'll do to regional peace going forward.

UR deductions are way off and long winded to boot.
Yes it is not right for turkey if they are mistreating Kurds.

but let us go back in time, when Iranian king Pehlvi refused to follow, Kurds were trained and equiped to ratle the shah, he in turn accepted to follow and was spared the Kurdish problem.

i would like to know about ur interview with tukish PM. Are u a diplomat how can u interview tukish prime minster, it sounds like a fiction. it would be hard for me to believe that Turkish PM, a devout Muslim will agree to as u call, fictional blood libel.

Kurdish problem should be treated as a problem between two brotherly neighbour and I fail to understand why it is being handled in this way, I only can guess and my guess is that previous turkish Govt. were trying to please EU so that they can become the menbers of EU.

But than Kurdisah problem may be a card EU plays in the region to keep two brothers fighting, Present PM realises it and want to correct the wrongs, I think and this is true when u see his actions re Israel and its policies of unproportional act in Killing of Palistenians. Remember More than 1500 Palistenians killed as compare to less than 50 Israelis in Gaza last attack.

I am suopriese that u talk of Hamas as if it is a monsters and needs to be distroyed, again ur fogeting the facts, Hamas was chosen by the people in elections, on the other hand Abas was put in place by people other than palistenians.

You say in one of your para, please good to work for peace, man o man it works both ways, why dont you be good at the same time and I pomise not only Muslims will return the favour, they will supass u in doing so.

Again ur deductions about corupt Turkish politicians as they lost to Erodogan as if it was a shamefull thing, man o man u of all the people should know how politic works and how the cooky crumbles.

At the end u r assuming that turkey is lost when they stand for what they believe in , why don't u pay some attentions and be good and think like a fair minded person who is willing to listen to facts about justice, reasonability and good of Hunailty and not for selfish reasons. turkey is not lost, it is anm asumtion by neo-cons to undermine turkey which for 90 years have stood for peace and has been a partner and will be with whosoever is willing to work for peace.

Now let me take u back again in time, In 50 and 60s pakistan was the gretest ally and did everything possible to please in doing so we bore the brunt of Soviet union for suporting the flight of U2 out of Pakistan, why because we believed in the friendship in which we were equal partners. that is what pakistan is for and that is what it stand for and i wish u did the same.

Now as I read ur post it sounds more like intruction issued to a underdog with all kinds of inuendo and fictions.

Please Sir good and do the right things and speak the truth and help the humanity to rid it of prejudices, of opressions and help it to work and live in Democracy.

This is why I love Canada, its actions speak for itself. as it works very hard to rid itself of prejudices and help its new arrivals in living in Democracy and never says, oh u donot know any thing about living in a Democratic society.

Respects the ethnicity and cultures of differant reces making Canada home. I came to Canada in 1968 when there were no Mosque in Toronto, now there are one hundred mosques, horay for Canada.

My hats off to Canada

P.S. it is fantastic that Canada allows me to keep my Pakistani citizenship at the same time that i become Canadian. WOW.............................................................................

 

[Solomon2]

UR deductions are way off and long winded to boot...i would like to know about ur interview with tukish PM.

I'm sorry, asq. I thought it was clear that by using a very different font I was reproducing the entire linked article from The Wall Street Journal. That is my custom, and I've never known it to cause confusion before.

- it would be hard for me to believe that Turkish PM, a devout Muslim will agree to as u call, fictional blood libel.

Here is a bit of background on the Turkish PM's history, courtesy of author Dr. Andrew Bostom:

Just over 35 years ago, in 1974, Erdogan, while serving as president of the Istanbul Youth Group of his mentor, former Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan’s National Salvation Party, wrote, directed, and played the leading role in a theatrical play entitled Maskomya, staged throughout Turkey during the 1970s. Mas-Kom-Ya was a compound acronym for “Masons-Communists-Yahudi”—the latter of course “Jews”—and the play focused on the evil, conspiratorial nature of these three entities whose common denominator was Judaism.

More recently, when the wildly popular, most expensive film ever made in Turkey Valley of the Wolves (released February, 2006) included a “cinematic motif” which featured an American Jewish doctor dismembering Iraqis supposedly murdered by American soldiers in order to harvest their organs for Jewish markets, Prime Minister Erdogan not only failed to condemn the film, he justified its production and popularity.

On August 28, 2007, the same day that Abdullah Gul became Turkey’s President – replacing his secular predecessor, and further consolidating the ruling Islamic AK (Adalet ve Kalkınma) Party’s (AKP) hold on power — MEMRI published excerpts from a chilling interview given by Erdogan’s mentor, former Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan. The interview originally aired July 1, 2007, as part of Erbakan’s campaign efforts in support of Islamic fundamentalist political causes before the general elections of July 22, 2007, and the AKP’s resounding popular electoral victory over its closest “secularist” rival parties.

Erbakan, founder of the fundamentalist Islamic Milli Gorus (National Vision; originated 1969) movement, mentored current AKP leaders President Gul, and Prime Minister Erdogan, both of whom were previously active members of Erbakan’s assorted fundamentalist political parties, serving in mayoral, ministerial, and parliamentary posts. The IHH—whose violent operatives featured prominently in the Mavi Maramara Antisemitic incitement, and subsequent bloodshed—has its origins in this same Orthodox Islamic Milli Görüş movement. During Erbakan’s pre-election 2007 campaign stops before throngs of tens of thousands of supporters throughout Anatolia (including cities such as Trabzon, Elazig, and Konya), as well as cosmopolitan Ankara and Istanbul, he reiterated the same virulently Antisemitic statements captured in the July 1 interview, and other interviews.

These interviews and more expansive speeches were rife with allusions to Zionists/Jews (deliberately conflated), as “bacteria,” and “disease,” conspiring to dominate the contemporary Islamic world (“from Morocco to Indonesia”), as they had attempted unsuccessfully during the 11th and 12th centuries when Jews purportedly “organized” the Crusades, only to be stopped by the Turk’s/Erbakan’s Seljuk “forefathers.” Ultimately, Erbakan claimed, modern Jews/Zionists wished to establish “a world order where money and manpower are dependent on [them].”

For over thirty years, Necmettin Erbakan a former chairman of the fundamentalist National Salvation Party, and its numerous offshoots, have represented the most significant examples of Turkish Muslim political organizations exploiting systematized anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist bigotry. Erbakan’s ascension to Deputy Prime Minister in January, 1974, was marked by Pan-Islamic overtures, along with increasingly strident verbal violence against Jews, Zionism, and the State of Israel emanating from the National Salvation Party’s organs, especially its daily Milli Gazete (The National Newspaper), published in Istanbul since January 12, 1973.

The modern fundamentalist Islamic movement Erbakan founded has continued to produce the most extreme strain of antisemitism extant in Turkey, and traditional Islamic motifs, i.e., frequent quotations from the Koran and Hadith, remain central to this hatred, nurtured by early Islam’s basic animus towards Judaism. Milli Gazete published articles in February and April of 2005, for example, which were toxic amalgams of ahistorical drivel, and virulently antisemitic and anti-dhimmi Koranic motifs, including these protoypical comments based upon Koran 2:61/ 3:112...

Erbakan’s recent statements are vivid evidence of the fulminant Antisemitism his popular movement has imbued, including amongst Turkey’s current ruling elites, who never criticize such pronouncements by their mentor. Indeed current Prime Minister Erdogan amplifies this bigoted, Antisemitic discourse which resonates among the masses, illustrating graphically the same phenomenon described so presciently 37 years ago by Bat Ye’or about her native Egypt: sequentially grafting on to a learned foundation of Antisemitic motifs from Islam’s core texts, modern secular Western European elements, especially those associated with Nazism.

Rifat Bali, a Turkish historian, and Jew, made a passionate indictment of Turkey’s tacit acceptance of Antisemitism, published soon after the November 15, 2003 Istanbul synagogue bombings. The singularly courageous Bali, decried first and foremost, Prime Minister Recep Tayip Erdogan’s and his AKP government’s abject failure to publicly denounce both the Antisemitic discourse of the fundamentalist Islamic movement from which Erdogan emerged, and which he claimed later to have abandoned -

So yes, Mr. Erdogan does indeed have a pattern of sticking fictional blood libels on Jews.

 

[asq]

I'm sorry, asq. I thought it was clear that by using a very different font I was reproducing the entire linked article from The Wall Street Journal. That is my custom, and I've never known it to cause confusion before.



Here is a bit of background on the Turkish PM's history, courtesy of author Dr. Andrew Bostom:

Just over 35 years ago, in 1974, Erdogan, while serving as president of the Istanbul Youth Group of his mentor, former Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan’s National Salvation Party, wrote, directed, and played the leading role in a theatrical play entitled Maskomya, staged throughout Turkey during the 1970s. Mas-Kom-Ya was a compound acronym for “Masons-Communists-Yahudi”—the latter of course “Jews”—and the play focused on the evil, conspiratorial nature of these three entities whose common denominator was Judaism.

More recently, when the wildly popular, most expensive film ever made in Turkey Valley of the Wolves (released February, 2006) included a “cinematic motif” which featured an American Jewish doctor dismembering Iraqis supposedly murdered by American soldiers in order to harvest their organs for Jewish markets, Prime Minister Erdogan not only failed to condemn the film, he justified its production and popularity.

On August 28, 2007, the same day that Abdullah Gul became Turkey’s President – replacing his secular predecessor, and further consolidating the ruling Islamic AK (Adalet ve Kalkınma) Party’s (AKP) hold on power — MEMRI published excerpts from a chilling interview given by Erdogan’s mentor, former Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan. The interview originally aired July 1, 2007, as part of Erbakan’s campaign efforts in support of Islamic fundamentalist political causes before the general elections of July 22, 2007, and the AKP’s resounding popular electoral victory over its closest “secularist” rival parties.

Erbakan, founder of the fundamentalist Islamic Milli Gorus (National Vision; originated 1969) movement, mentored current AKP leaders President Gul, and Prime Minister Erdogan, both of whom were previously active members of Erbakan’s assorted fundamentalist political parties, serving in mayoral, ministerial, and parliamentary posts. The IHH—whose violent operatives featured prominently in the Mavi Maramara Antisemitic incitement, and subsequent bloodshed—has its origins in this same Orthodox Islamic Milli Görüş movement. During Erbakan’s pre-election 2007 campaign stops before throngs of tens of thousands of supporters throughout Anatolia (including cities such as Trabzon, Elazig, and Konya), as well as cosmopolitan Ankara and Istanbul, he reiterated the same virulently Antisemitic statements captured in the July 1 interview, and other interviews.

These interviews and more expansive speeches were rife with allusions to Zionists/Jews (deliberately conflated), as “bacteria,” and “disease,” conspiring to dominate the contemporary Islamic world (“from Morocco to Indonesia”), as they had attempted unsuccessfully during the 11th and 12th centuries when Jews purportedly “organized” the Crusades, only to be stopped by the Turk’s/Erbakan’s Seljuk “forefathers.” Ultimately, Erbakan claimed, modern Jews/Zionists wished to establish “a world order where money and manpower are dependent on [them].”

For over thirty years, Necmettin Erbakan a former chairman of the fundamentalist National Salvation Party, and its numerous offshoots, have represented the most significant examples of Turkish Muslim political organizations exploiting systematized anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist bigotry. Erbakan’s ascension to Deputy Prime Minister in January, 1974, was marked by Pan-Islamic overtures, along with increasingly strident verbal violence against Jews, Zionism, and the State of Israel emanating from the National Salvation Party’s organs, especially its daily Milli Gazete (The National Newspaper), published in Istanbul since January 12, 1973.

The modern fundamentalist Islamic movement Erbakan founded has continued to produce the most extreme strain of antisemitism extant in Turkey, and traditional Islamic motifs, i.e., frequent quotations from the Koran and Hadith, remain central to this hatred, nurtured by early Islam’s basic animus towards Judaism. Milli Gazete published articles in February and April of 2005, for example, which were toxic amalgams of ahistorical drivel, and virulently antisemitic and anti-dhimmi Koranic motifs, including these protoypical comments based upon Koran 2:61/ 3:112...

Erbakan’s recent statements are vivid evidence of the fulminant Antisemitism his popular movement has imbued, including amongst Turkey’s current ruling elites, who never criticize such pronouncements by their mentor. Indeed current Prime Minister Erdogan amplifies this bigoted, Antisemitic discourse which resonates among the masses, illustrating graphically the same phenomenon described so presciently 37 years ago by Bat Ye’or about her native Egypt: sequentially grafting on to a learned foundation of Antisemitic motifs from Islam’s core texts, modern secular Western European elements, especially those associated with Nazism.

Rifat Bali, a Turkish historian, and Jew, made a passionate indictment of Turkey’s tacit acceptance of Antisemitism, published soon after the November 15, 2003 Istanbul synagogue bombings. The singularly courageous Bali, decried first and foremost, Prime Minister Recep Tayip Erdogan’s and his AKP government’s abject failure to publicly denounce both the Antisemitic discourse of the fundamentalist Islamic movement from which Erdogan emerged, and which he claimed later to have abandoned -

So yes, Mr. Erdogan does indeed have a pattern of sticking fictional blood libels on Jews.

You talk about extremism produced in turkey, look who is talking, you destroyed whole city for them asking to be not encircles and be able to bring food, medicine and other supplies needed for people to live, but instead of talking you bombed it to rubles, so do not go giving us a lecture about extremism, look in you own house before you blame others.

 

[-SINAN-]

God...thx for bringing 5 years old thread....

 

[usernameless]

Needed 4,5 years to come up with an answer?