Turkey 'fully supports' Pakistan’s position on Kashmir: Turkish FM

[-xXx-]

Kashmir still remains on the Agenda of the SC

The UN refuses to terminate UNMOGIP and you haven't kicked them out yet (even 44 years after the signing of Simla)

Discarded ? Not really ... You can't

You just refuse to cooperate ....

Exactly, that's what non binding means and since they were under Chapter VI and not VII, UN can not enforce the resolutions on us.

So its all our wish. It always was.

So now stop searching some sort of salvation and put some chilled ice on the scar created by the comments of Kofi Annan and Ban Ki Moon. I know that hurts.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Exactly, that's what non binding means and since they were under Chapter VI and not VII, UN can not enforce the resolutions on us.

So its all our wish. It always was.

So now stop searching some sort of salvation and put some chilled ice on the scar created by the comments of Kofi Annan and Ban Ki Moon. I know that hurts.

.... Okay Bro ... At least you tried ... And as is clear now that You have nothing to add and you have started repeating what has already been answered .... Let's end this discussion ... Have a nice day

 

[-xXx-]

.... Okay Bro ... At least you tried ... And as is clear now that You have nothing to add and you have started repeating what has already been answered .... Let's end this discussion ... Have a nice day

I can understand your angst. Kofi Annan and Ban Ki Moon are such an @ss right?

Killed all fun, those 2 man.

How about me posting your last resignation to PDF in some style to bring back the fun and some good mood?

 

[Joe Shearer]

In that case, might become right. What your choice is when might have already failed thrice? Whats the tool left in the kitty?

Moreover Haider, you raised Junagarh, so let me put forth two points -

1- Pakistan was created on the basic premise of that hindu muslims can not live together peacefully. Isn't the acceptance of accession of Junagarh which was almost a hindu state beat that argument?

2- Junagarh was not connected with mainland Pakistan by any means with 3 faces to India and one opening at Arabian sea. How can it be practically viable to be acceded to Pakistan? The same case with Hyderabad. That was the reason, though Jinnah claim Indian act as an invasion on sovereignty of Pakistan, he never stretch the matter beyond a point.

3- India never argued that Hindus can not live with muslims, so we never had any apprehension on accession of muslim majority state of Kashmir to us.

4- East Timor UNSC resolution was based on Chapter 7 and was enforceable.



Its just that I do not want to burn my brain cells more often on this forum.

@Joe Shearer You can argue at length and what will come back to you will be an amalgamation of words like "Oppression, UN resolution, Genocide, Hindu army, Freedom fighter, Martyr, Jihad" and some prepositions, verbs, qualifiers and connectors loosely woven around them.

Your point is well taken, but do we not have an obligation, in forum or out of forum, to put across a reasonable argument for our existence, and for the formation of our nation-state, and the policies that we generally follow, except in times of contrarian political churn?

Sometimes I feel that the better types of Pakistani look upon us as incorrigible religious bigots who are sometimes individually gentlemen, whereas the worse types have the same view but cannot, for the life of them, see any gentlemanly behaviour. That seems to be the only difference.

I am exaggerating for effect, of course.

Incidentally, congratulations also on the pungent but laconic answer on Junagadh and Hyderabad. All of a sudden, there are more and more articulate people to put across our point of view in a closely-argued manner.

 

[dadeechi]

Finally Pakistan managed to find someone to support their stand. Congratulations.

The devil is in the detail. Oops this sounds like Shimla agreement.

Cavusoglu stressed that the Jammu Kashmir dispute can only be resolved through dialogue and diplomacy and not through use of force.

“We believe that this issue, this dispute, can be solved only through dialogue and diplomacy, not violence or using force. And I’m sure Pakistan has the same position. Therefore we will continue contributing in this issue, and hopefully everybody will refrain from using violence instead of preferring or choosing the diplomacy and dialogue to overcome this issue,” he said.

 

[-xXx-]

Your point is well taken, but do we not have an obligation, in forum or out of forum, to put across a reasonable argument for our existence, and for the formation of our nation-state, and the policies that we generally follow, except in times of contrarian political churn?

Sometimes I feel that the better types of Pakistani look upon us as incorrigible religious bigots who are sometimes individually gentlemen, whereas the worse types have the same view but cannot, for the life of them, see any gentlemanly behaviour. That seems to be the only difference.

I am exaggerating for effect, of course.

Incidentally, congratulations also on the pungent but laconic answer on Junagadh and Hyderabad. All of a sudden, there are more and more articulate people to put across our point of view in a closely-argued manner.

I agree. There is a clear lack of facts and if we can help out those willing to accept and learn, it would be a service to nation albeit very minuscule. With clear fact presented, as you said, the better pakistanis will have more affirmative view of India and that may possibly result in lessor hatred toward us in longer terms, perhaps few generation down. I can only wish that more better pakistanis are reading this forum, the one posting dont gives me much hope.

The type of audience we get on these forums and the nature of forum being a black hole for all worthy posts, your efforts are lost very quickly with no tangible change. Soon you turn more into simplistic but sarcastic poster. A general tendency you must have seen among many excellent posters who turn out being labelled as trolls later on. That's my experience of decade of foruming and being part of management team on different platforms.

The person who never have been religious in his whole life will turn into a religious bigot on this platform, most of the times to irk his opponent, which is not the true identity of his life. He/she would be most secular in real sense outside the forum. Here the negativity brings out the worst of individuals and defence forum generally attracts people with aggression and inherent violence. I always see personalities on this board two notches milder than what they pretend.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree. There is a clear lack of facts and if we can help out those willing to accept and learn, it would be a service to nation albeit very minuscule. With clear fact presented, as you said, the better pakistanis will have more affirmative view of India and that may possibly result in lessor hatred toward us in longer terms, perhaps few generation down. I can only wish that more better pakistanis are reading this forum, the one posting dont gives me much hope.

The type of audience we get on these forums and the nature of forum being a black hole for all worthy posts, your efforts are lost very quickly with no tangible change. Soon you turn more into simplistic but sarcastic poster. A general tendency you must have seen among many excellent posters who turn out being labelled as trolls later on. That's my experience of decade of foruming and being part of management team on different platforms.

The person who never have been religious in his whole life will turn into a religious bigot on this platform, most of the times to irk his opponent, which is not the true identity of his life. He/she would be most secular in real sense outside the forum. Here the negativity brings out the worst of individuals and defence forum generally attracts people with aggression and inherent violence. I always see personalities on this board two notches milder than what they pretend.

Unexceptionable.

Nothing to be added or subtracted from my side.

However, there are some very dear friends among the members of this forum, and I hope as time goes on to introduce them to you. I will leave you to make your own friends and foes for the time being, as you will not wish to acquire a nanny. The moderators are very fair, and I am very comfortable with their judgement (confession time: sometimes I have awarded some post a slightly harsher rating than strictly required, knowing that the moderators will take a fairer view and rescind the decision).

But thank you for some very well-reasoned and well-informed posts.

 

[SQ8]

In that case, might become right. What your choice is when might have already failed thrice? Whats the tool left in the kitty?

Moreover Haider, you raised Junagarh, so let me put forth two points -

1- Pakistan was created on the basic premise of that hindu muslims can not live together peacefully. Isn't the acceptance of accession of Junagarh which was almost a hindu state beat that argument?

2- Junagarh was not connected with mainland Pakistan by any means with 3 faces to India and one opening at Arabian sea. How can it be practically viable to be acceded to Pakistan? The same case with Hyderabad. That was the reason, though Jinnah claim Indian act as an invasion on sovereignty of Pakistan, he never stretch the matter beyond a point.

3- India never argued that Hindus can not live with muslims, so we never had any apprehension on accession of muslim majority state of Kashmir to us.

4- East Timor UNSC resolution was based on Chapter 7 and was enforceable.



Its just that I do not want to burn my brain cells more often on this forum.

@Joe Shearer You can argue at length and what will come back to you will be an amalgamation of words like "Oppression, UN resolution, Genocide, Hindu army, Freedom fighter, Martyr, Jihad" and some prepositions, verbs, qualifiers and connectors loosely woven around them.

A couple of corrections.

1. Pakistan was NEVER created out of that premise. That is too simplistic and only patronises the political slogans that came up via individual usage. A good study of M.A Jinnah's speeches and his conversations on the matter will show that Pakistan was created to give Muslims the ability to decide their lifestyles by way of majority in decision. Be it in laws or economics. It had little to do with coexistence of the common and more to do with coexistence of the leadership of the two major religious communities throughout the history of the British Raj.

2. He was a lawyer/politician; and a good one at that. His intent was to gather as many princely states for both their land and financial capacity to show as support for the cause of Pakistan; and as a man who never left a debt unpaid, he had to raise the voice for these states regardless of the impossible nature of the situation.

3.Again, you are claiming to aim for a higher perception but are not demonstrating it.

I agree. There is a clear lack of facts

Shall I give the same example for facts as I did to @Joe Shearer ? His wit can grasp it, but can yours?

 

[Joe Shearer]

A couple of corrections.

1. Pakistan was NEVER created out of that premise. That is too simplistic and only patronises the political slogans that came up via individual usage. A good study of M.A Jinnah's speeches and his conversations on the matter will show that Pakistan was created to give Muslims the ability to decide their lifestyles by way of majority in decision. Be it in laws or economics. It had little to do with coexistence of the common and more to do with coexistence of the leadership of the two major religious communities throughout the history of the British Raj.

2. He was a lawyer/politician; and a good one at that. His intent was to gather as many princely states for both their land and financial capacity to show as support for the cause of Pakistan; and as a man who never left a debt unpaid, he had to raise the voice for these states regardless of the impossible nature of the situation.

3.Again, you are claiming to aim for a higher perception but are not demonstrating it.


Shall I give the same example for facts as I did to @Joe Shearer ? His wit can grasp it, but can yours?

@-xXx-

I think what Oscar is pointing out is that as far as the origins of Pakistan are concerned, and the felt need of the leaders of the movement are concerned, there was a great deal of complex motivation involved, and that does not translate well into 'facts', in the sense that you and I have used it in other facets of the conversation with Pakistanis. If there were to be a one-sentence summation, we could do worse than use Oscar's: Pakistan was created to give Muslims the ability to decide their lifestyles by way of majority in decision.

Personally, I would change the wording slightly: Pakistan was created to give Muslims the ability to decide their lifestyles without the veto or overriding decision of a majority of those who are not Muslims.

The significant part, the part that does not come out with our reading of the texts, and the resolutions and the pamphlets, the letters, journals and books, is the web of relationships between the dominant sections of different communities. It was not the common people who were defining the contours of the arrangements for after the British had departed; it was the community leaders. And that was a far more complex relationship than our sources permit us to derive or to share on an essentially minimalist forum.

His comment was about Junagadh, and, to a lesser and simultaneously greater extent, about Hyderabad.

About Junagadh, Jinnah confined himself to deploring the failure of the British former Viceroy, current counter-part Governor General, to allow the prince to accede to Pakistan. If we read between the lines, what Oscar has commented is that it is not that Jinnah didn't 'get' that a princely state isolated from Pakistan physically could not join Pakistan. Rather, Jinnah was genuflecting to the tight support he had got from the princes for the idea of Pakistan. Most especially to the support of the Nizam. Jinnah was fond of Hyderabad, and Hyderabad was fond of him, to the extent that the penny-pinching Nizam had started the process of funding Pakistan, before events, Sardar Patel and V. P. Menon overtook him.

So as far as his support for these causes was concerned, it was quixotic. His support would not have altered the situation; it did, however, ensure that the princes concerned knew that he was paying his dues.

For the rest, I still believe, the difficulty of mensuration involved in considering the Nazariya e Pakistan does not extent to the rather more mundane issues that we grapple with; for instance, the 700,000 troops supposed to be in the Valley.

 

[Zibago]

Read below the Highlighted part to know how you got %%% of Kashmir.




Letter from Maharaja Hari Singh to Lord Mountbatten on Pak invasion of J&K in 1947

My dear Lord Mountbatten,

I have to inform Your Excellency that a grave emergency has arisen in my State and request the immediate assistance of your Government. As Your Excellency is aware,the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not acceded to either the Dominion of India or Pakistan. Geographically my State is contiguous with both of them. Besides, my State has a common boundary with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and with China. In their external relations the Dominion of India and Pakistan cannot ignore this fact. I wanted to take time to decide to which Dominion I should accede or whether it is not in the best interests of both the Dominions and of my State to stand independent, of course with friendly and cordial relations with both. I accordingly approached the Dominions of India and Pakistan to enter into standstill agreement with my State. The Pakistan Government accepted this arrangement. The Dominion of India desired further discussion with representatives of my Government. I could not arrange this in view of the developments indicated below. ln fact the Pakistan Goernment under the standstill agreement is operating the post and telegraph system inside the State. Though we have got a standstill agreement with the Pakistan Government, the Govemment permitted a steady and increasing strangulation of supplies like food, salt and petrol to my State.

Afridis, soldiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes with modern weapons have been allowed to infiltrate into the State, at first in the Poonch area, then from Sialkot and finally in a mass in the area adjoining-Hazara district on the Ramkote side. The result has been that the limited number of troops at the disposal of the State had to be dispersed and thus had to face the enemy at several points simultaneously, so that it has become difficult to stop the wanton destruction of life and property and the looting of the Mahura power house, which supplies electric current to the whole of Srinagar and which has been burnt. The number of women who have been kidnapped and raped makes my heart bleed. The wild forces thus let loose on the State are marching on with the aim of capturing Srinagar, the summer capital of my government, as a first step to overrunning the whole State. The mass infiltration of tribesman drawn from distant areas of the North-West Frontier Province, coming regularly in motortrucks, using the Manwehra-Mazaffarabad road and fully armed with up-to-date weapons, cannot possibly be done without the knowledge of the Provincial Govemment of the North-West Frontier Province and the Government of Pakistan. Inspite of repeated appeals made by my Government no attempt has been made to check these raiders or to stop them from coming into my State. In fact, both radio and the Press of Pakistan have reported these occurences. The Pakistan radio even put out the story that a provisional government has been set up in Kashmir. The people of my State, both Muslims and non-Muslims, generally have taken no part at all.

With the conditbns obtaining at present in my State and the great emergency of the situation as it exists, I have no option but to ask for help from the Indian Dominion. Naturally they cannot send the help asked for by me without my State acceding to the Dominion of India. I have accordingly decided to do so, and I attach the instrument of accession for acceptance by your Government. The other alternative is to leave my state and people to free booters. On this basis no civilised government can exist or be maintained.

This alternative I will never allow to happen so long as I am the ruler of the State and I have life to defend my country. I may also inform your Excellency's Government that it is my intention at once to set up an interim government and to ask Sheikh Abdullah to carry the responsibilities in this emergency with my Prime Minister.

If my State is to be saved, immediate assistance must be available at Srinagar. Mr. V.P. Menon is fully aware of the gravity of the situation and will explain it to you, if further explanation is needed.

In haste and with kindest regards,

Yours sincerely,

Hari Singh
October 26, 1947


Response from Lord Mountbatten

My dear Maharaja Sahib,

Your Highness' letter dated 26 October 1947 has been delivered to me by Mr. V.P. Menon. In the circumstances mentioned by Your Highness, my Government have decided to accept the accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. In consistence with their policy that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government's wish that, as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and its soil cleared of the invader, the question of the State's accession should be settled by a reference to the people.

Meanwhile, in response to Your Highness' appeal for military aid, action has been taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir, to help your own forces to defend your territory and to protect the lives, property, and honour of your people. My Government and I note with satisfaction that Your Highness has decided to invite Sheikh Abdullah to form an interim Government to work with your Prime Minister.

Mountbatten of Burma
October 27, 1947

Source: Defence.pk

Oh yeah the letter from that Hindu dictator represented the aspirations of Muslims of the state of Kashmir

 

[I.R.A]

Cavusoglu said Ankara and Islamabad have supported each other through thick and thin, and Turkish and Pakistani people know they can rely on each other during difficult times.

That is why Pakistan was the first country he was visiting following the coup attempt in Turkey, he said.

Turkish FM's statements reflect lot more than usual support and relations between the two countries and their (future) alliances. If future holds what it seems like it holds then Afghanistan, Iran and India may have to rethink their part again, we can all benefit and grow or we can all keep encircling each other and rot like we have been rotting. In any case India would face more pressure on Kashmir in future, in my weak analysis and opinion that is unavoidable.

 

[SQ8]

@-xXx-Pakistan was created to give Muslims the ability to decide their lifestyles by way of majority in decision.

For a man who is repeatedly referenced to have wished a relationship of the US and Canada between India & Pakistan and had a strong tie to Hindu-Muslim unity within the subcontinent; the narrative of being the architect of divide along a pure religious belief chasm is unfit for a conclusion. This is a person who has trained as a lawyer, knows the idea of moving public perception with arguments to win his case. That has LITTLE do with what he believes is the case and what his intentions were. For a lawyer, once he believes his client his right; the win must come by any proof and any presentation of the narrative for that proof to be presented to the Jury. In this case the Jury was both the British Rulers and the people that would form Pakistan.

Coming to the issue of Kashmir, it is impossible that a person with a wide grasp of issues ranging from law, geo-politics and the pedigree of wine would not grasp the basic strategic advantage a position of height would give to either country but foremost it embodied ensuring the supply of water for crops, which was one of his greatest concerns and the overriding reason he sent in the military.

Water is the ONLY reason for Kashmir, and since it is a foundation of life which makes it key to Pakistan's survival. Knowing the level of mistrust that exists along with historical antagonism and current hatred; Kashmir will continue to be an unsolved issue until only a final and terrible battle solves it. That is not a dogmatic, but simply a historical lesson based on what resources such as water have had people do.

 

[GR!FF!N]

MR Thinnest skinned president and his regime is becoming jokes..

Mr President is issuing statements like http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ind-your-own-business-over-crackdown-critici/

And yet they dare to lecture other sovereign states like India and Bangladesh over their "internal issues".

Double standard at its best.Hope people of Turkey recognize the difference between democracy and autocracy(what Erdogan is trying to create right now.He is no better than Putin,actually he is probably far worse)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Oh yeah the letter from that Hindu dictator represented the aspirations of Muslims of the state of Kashmir

It did not. and nobody claimed that it did.

The clear position is that as the sovereign, he had the right to decide, provided that his state was in physical contiguity with the Dominion he chose.

It was India, through Mountbatten, that explicitly made the accession conditional on a plebiscite being held.

What then is the problem with the Instrument of Accession?

 

[Assault Rifle]

Lol.
Only Pakistanis will get satisfied by mere lip service.Turks have been saying same thing about Kashmir for over 50 years but have failed to cause any change to situation.

May, 1990:

Earlier, Turkish Prime Minister Yildirim Akbulut told reporters that Turkey supported Pakistan in its dispute with India over Kashmir, a predominately Moslem region controlled by India but claimed by Pakistan, a Moslem country.

http://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/05/16/Bhutto-in-Turkey-on-diplomatic-tour/2015642830400/

Turkey fully supports for early implementation of the United Nations resolutions on Kashmir. (Ismat Inono, Prime Minister of Turkey – April 2, 1964)
Turkey unequivocally supports Pakistan’s stand on the Kashmir issue. (Turkish President Cemal Gursel – April 3, 1964)

http://www.na.gov.pk/en/content.php?id=91

July, 2004:

“Turkey fully supports Pakistan on Kashmir. This problem should be tackled as soon as possible.

http://www.dawn.com/news/141809/pak...e-industry-increase-in-trade-volume-discussed

September, 2008:
https://defence.pk/threads/turkish-foreign-minister-backs-pakistan’s-position-on-kashmir.14583/

December, 2012:
https://defence.pk/threads/turkey-supports-pakistans-stance-on-kashmir-issue-abdullah-gul.223181/

@Azlan Haider @The Eagle