TuAF Alternative to F-35?

[StormBreaker]

F4 can carry almost 10000 kgs of armaments. They will need similar aircraft to replace it. Which is likely to be SU 35. There is no chance for JF-17.

Turkey doesn’t have an aesa in their F-16s yet, we have !!!

SU-35 should definitely be the decision of TuAF but if they pickup some EW Thunders in future, that would prove even greater for them. Thunders are not some low class birds, they are modern fighters, mating them with SU-35s in different scenarios will open room for many strategies for TuAF.

However, until Ozgur/V happens, Thunder will provide them something new, they should even consider having 36 JF-17b for OCU or Training. These in turn can be converted to EW platforms hopefully if EW Thunder is on PAC Cards.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Turkey doesn’t have an aesa in their F-16s yet, we have !!!

SU-35 should definitely be the decision of TuAF but if they pickup some EW Thunders in future, that would prove even greater for them. Thunders are not some low class birds, they are modern fighters, mating them with SU-35s in different scenarios will open room for many strategies for TuAF.

However, until Ozgur/V happens, Thunder will provide them something new, they should even consider having 36 JF-17b for OCU or Training. These in turn can be converted to EW platforms hopefully if EW Thunder is on PAC Cards.

Their AESA radar is still in production. For SU 35s they can get Russian radars.
For EW Thunder, how will you power all the EW equipment???

 

[LittleFish]

Buddy, i was wondering, What is the core issue which causes differences between Turk and China other than uiyghur ? Turkey, Russia, China and Pak together can be quite a punch in international politics.

Uighur is even not a problem between Turkey and China since Turkey cannot impose realistic influence on China, only resulting quarrels between we keyboard warriors but we all know our words counts nothing, just to kill our time. So called EastTurkestan problem become a problem just because it is made use of by US.
So I don't see there is a realistic political problem between Turkey and China, in fact Turkey and China are natural ally.

Turkey as well as China can co-develop SAC based fighter such as FC-31 (rumoured dead, taken over by J-35). Turkey has experience on F-35, at least some but very important while China has ready prototypes which can go to production in max 4 years.

This will in turn help Turkey to enhance and improvise their TF-X design and specs.

FC-31 is liked among Chinese military amateurs, every one wants it to be adopted.
The only problem for FC-31 is simple and hard to solve: money, billions of money. Development of a 5-gen fighter is just a burning game of money.
FC-31 is just the role of YF-23 which is beaten by YF-22 in internal selection, so it lacks of the sponsor of Chinese Airforce.
SAC is a capable company and experienced in fighter design. J-8, J-11, J-16 and J-15 are all from SAC.
The best development mode for FC-31 is that of F-35: to find International investigators, like Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
I don't think Turkey will invest much or even invest in FC-31 since they must concentrate all money to their own TF-X.

So the best solution (personally and recognized by many other Chinese amateurs) is to resort to Pakistan to persuade Gulf Muslim countries like SA and UAE to invest in FC-31 program and make it the F-35 for Muslim world. I bet that SAC have the same idea as mine.
Yes I know that TF-X may look more like the selection for Muslim world, but I doubt TF-X may already have been not "halal" for GCC countries except Qatar. Meanwhile, SAC is more experienced and expert in making fighters, and FC-31 is already in prototype phase for years.

 

[Mithridates]

Tell me about your opinion.

My evaluation is based on short to medium-term macroeconomic and political factors.

well in my opinion you should go for worst case scenario, saying Greece and Saudi Arabia will not get f-35, rafale is nothing compared to f-16, Egyptian air force is nothing is a little nonsense.
Egyptian air force has decent capabilities to be honest, the part that people usually forget about an air force is the fact that air force existential goal is to destroy enemy weapons, troops and infrastructures in behind front line or in it. the air superiority is secondary job.
so for A2G missions it's essential to have planes ready to do job, and EAF has numbers in this regard. in anti ship missions one of their most capable weapons is KH-31 missile (i don't know if they have anti radiation version or not and if they do again it's an advantage).
in air they can only rely on the rafale and mig-29s, however again you can't underestimate the rest of their fleet. also i should remind you guys that rafale is really superior to f-16 as it has more room for AA missiles, LO profile and better radar. f-16 (with APG-68) will not be able to lock on rafale until it gets the 70 km of falcon. after that the f-16 should overcome the jamming.
Turkish air force unlike what you think will be focused on defending it's territory, at least in first months.
overall i think EAF has a little better position, also note that they want to acquire su-35s. in that case situation would be far better for them.
with saying they are nothing u only hurt yourselves.

 

[Agha Sher]

well in my opinion you should go for worst case scenario, saying Greece and Saudi Arabia will not get f-35, rafale is nothing compared to f-16, Egyptian air force is nothing is a little nonsense.
Egyptian air force has decent capabilities to be honest, the part that people usually forget about an air force is the fact that air force existential goal is to destroy enemy weapons, troops and infrastructures in behind front line or in it. the air superiority is secondary job.
so for A2G missions it's essential to have planes ready to do job, and EAF has numbers in this regard. in anti ship missions one of their most capable weapons is KH-31 missile (i don't know if they have anti radiation version or not and if they do again it's an advantage).
in air they can only rely on the rafale and mig-29s, however again you can't underestimate the rest of their fleet. also i should remind you guys that rafale is really superior to f-16 as it has more room for AA missiles, LO profile and better radar. f-16 (with APG-68) will not be able to lock on rafale until it gets the 70 km of falcon. after that the f-16 should overcome the jamming.
Turkish air force unlike what you think will be focused on defending it's territory, at least in first months.
overall i think EAF has a little better position, also note that they want to acquire su-35s. in that case situation would be far better for them.
with saying they are nothing u only hurt yourselves.

Never did I say that Greek and Egyptian air forces were nothing. I pointed out that Turkey would maintain the current balance in the medium-term since its foes wouldn't upgrade their air forces significantly in the period.

Greek is following a reactionary policy given their economic hardship. They will only invest in 5th generation fighters when Turkey acquires 5th generation fighters.

The Americans are not particularly fond of SA and would not share sensitive tech with them until they have something better.

The Egyptian air force has many F-16s and will get Rafales. But their fleet is without BVR missiles. Contemporary air combats will be decided by BVR missiles.

In the meantime, Turkey is upgrading its F-16 fleet with state of the art EW systems and from 2021 with indigenous AESA radars. Turkey will be more than fine in the medium-term.

 

[Oublious]

Never did I say that Greek and Egyptian air forces were nothing. I pointed out that Turkey would maintain the current balance in the medium-term since its foes wouldn't upgrade their air forces significantly in the period.

Greek is following a reactionary policy given their economic hardship. They will only invest in 5th generation fighters when Turkey acquires 5th generation fighters.

The Americans are not particularly fond of SA and would not share sensitive tech with them until they have something better.

The Egyptian air force has many F-16s and will get Rafales. But their fleet is without BVR missiles. Contemporary air combats will be decided by BVR missiles.

In the meantime, Turkey is upgrading its F-16 fleet with state of the art EW systems and from 2021 with indigenous AESA radars. Turkey will be more than fine in the medium-term.

You people don't see it in 1 picture, you don't win a war with BVR missile. A conflict with Egypt or Greece will be fought in the sea and not in the air. You need a long range AWAC, Jamming fighters and intelligence.

In a war Egypt will not able to maintain airpower with several fighters. Let that alone how good is egypt with ther old dated navy. They are buying desperately and that is not enough.

 

[Agha Sher]

You people don't see it in 1 picture, you don't win a war with BVR missile. A conflict with Egypt or Greece will be fought in the sea and not in the air. You need a long range AWAC, Jamming fighters and intelligence.

In a war Egypt will not able to maintain airpower with several fighters. Let that alone how good is egypt with ther old dated navy. They are buying desperately and that is not enough.

I agree with you, war is multi-dimensional. However, we were discussing air forces will keeping all else equal. Turley is advancing rapidly on multiple aspects of modern warfare and Greece + Egypt cannot keep up.

 

[Mithridates]

Turkey will be more than fine in the medium-term.

i'm talking about right now, Turkish air force would become defensive force against Egypt. they will receive their su-35 in several years too.

 

[Oublious]

I agree with you, war is multi-dimensional. However, we were discussing air forces will keeping all else equal. Turley is advancing rapidly on multiple aspects of modern warfare and Greece + Egypt cannot keep up.

Oooh sorry, not only that nobody is willing to give Egypt long range missiles. So they are desperatly asking for that, they are trying to get it with denel weapons, they are working with old employies of denel and they are thinking they will get IP rights. In the end denel get the technology from israel, israel won't allow it againg.


So Turkey will be in airpower against greec a little bit weak, greec will upgrade ther fighters to VIPER. AESA radar is only better, other stuf like navigation and mission computer is not relevant in this case. We did start our own AESA radar program but it will be ready after 2023.

But we will be usingS-400 against Greece so for a while S-400 be balancing power.

 

[Agha Sher]

i'm talking about right now, Turkish air force would become defensive force against Egypt. they will receive their su-35 in several years too.

TuAF would not become defensive against the Egyptian Air Force today. TuAF has better missiles, fighters, situational awareness, EW capabilities and sortie rates.

Turkish pilots are also better trained, constantly training dog fights with HAF in Aegean and have considerable more flight hours a year.

 

[CAN_TR]

i'm talking about right now, Turkish air force would become defensive force against Egypt. they will receive their su-35 in several years too.

And? What makes a Air Force deadly is the moment of surprise, good luck in trying to cross the Mediterranean (550-600km) undetected and start a attack.

What Egypt will receive is CAATSA threats, same happened to Indonesia.

 

[Mithridates]

TuAF would not become defensive against the Egyptian Air Force today.

that is inevitable, EAF has ~350 fighters capable of ground attack. if TAF do not go defensive it will loose it's assets.
if i'm not wrong they also have around 500 older planes like mig-21 as reserve planes.

TuAF has better missiles

more or less true

situational awareness

provided by what??

fighters

not true, Egypt also have f-16C/D while TAF has not the rafale, mig-29 and future su-35.

EW capabilities

possibly i have no info in this regard.

sortie rates

you are kidding me??

Turkish pilots are also better trained, constantly training dog fights with HAF in Aegean and have considerable more flight hours a year.

yes this part is potentially true as turkey is NATO member and also has accesses to spare parts from overseas and domestic industries.

the point is situation and capabilities of both side is almost equal with a little advantage of EAF over it's Turkish counterpart but some people seems like want to believe otherwise. it's clear in some of your comments like regarding the sorties number.

And? What makes a Air Force deadly is the moment of surprise, good luck in trying to cross the Mediterranean (550-600km) undetected and start a attack.

during initial phases of Iran-Iraq war, Iraq imitating Israel raid over Egyptian air bases, used the element of surprise and attacked Iran with large number of fighter jets and heavy bombers (however they failed miserably and didn't hit a single jet).
the point of story is if they plan well their is no need to stay undetected. they can attack with large numbers, they can improvise and attack you from 3rd country's border. in the case of war every thing is possible.
the point is with saying they are nothing their capabilities does not degrade, TAF needs a plan for acquiring better planes.

 

[Agha Sher]

provided by what??

Larger and more capable AEW&C

not true, Egypt also have f-16C/D while TAF has not the rafale, mig-29 and future su-35.

Turkey has 240+ F-16 C/D, while almost 2/3 of Egypt's F-16s are A and B. Rafale is being inducted and Egyptian pilots are unfamiliar with the platform (Also without BVR as we speak). Mig-29 has lost all its encounters with F-16. SU-35 will give Egypt a considerable punch (but it is some years into the future).

you are kidding me??

Tanker fleet among others.

 

[Oublious]

that is inevitable, EAF has ~350 fighters capable of ground attack. if TAF do not go defensive it will loose it's assets.


provided by what??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_AEW&C


We have UAV like ANKA-i for that purpose, and we have SIGINT plane collecting data about our enenmies...

We have beside that ship doing that in the sea.

 

[Mithridates]

Larger and more capable AEW&C

well this is true and Egypt has no long range weapon to down them, this is a point for TAF.

Turkey has 240+ F-16 C/D, while almost 2/3 of Egypt's F-16s are A and B. Rafale is being inducted and Egyptian pilots are unfamiliar with the platform

well you were saying TAF has better fighter jets...

(Also without BVR as we speak)

my friend dassault rafale, EF typhoon and super hornet have LO radar profile (around 0.5-0.1), it means an f-16 with APG-68 can detect them around 60-40 km respectively. and after that range rafale spectra (if i'm not wrong) jammers come in the game. they take sample of incoming radar and actively cancel it by producing opposite wave form of it so the rafale become invisible to hunter plane. again you need to come closer to achieve burn-through and detect rafale (i don't know how much exactly). so f-16's long range AMRAAM is not really relevant.

Tanker fleet among others.

sortie definition is the times that a plane can take off and perform it's role and land. it is obviously related to number of planes.