TTP has threatened KP government, wants to establish its rule in KP

[Kaniska]

Has that solved cultural issues though - rebel leaders having businesses or children studying doesn’t address the right aspect. Basically, the issue here is reforming an archaic culture using existing reformed people from that culture.

No unless Naga are fully embracing Indian society - no longer prone to violence or kidnappings and so on it doesn’t solve the issue. Also, naga rebels aren’t the best analogy - I would almost think of a situation akin to what Sir Syed needed to with the muslim polity all isolated to get them to engage with the British system(ironic since that “get with the occupation”) tone is resonating these days in that area


The problem here is - you’re fighting culture.

It’s almost like saying you want to redo East Pakistan and suppress Bengali culture if aspects(which may not be their fault entirely) of it were actually harming the Bengali people and keeping them suppressed.

It’s a rock and a hard place because trillions and 20 years from the United States did not change this entrenched idea enmasse although it did spur a change which was squandered by corrupt leadership.

Building schools in those tribal areas is a step - but if the elders and more importantly the political leadership is hell bent on saying X while doing Y and allegedly so are members of the deep state - then the common man will resent change regardless.

I am sorry if my points are misunderstood by you. I have no intention to see Pakistan be the hotbed of another insurgency...Beyond popular opinion amongst Indians, I am of a strong opinion that as long as Pakistan and its mainstream politics, culture, and narrative are driven by the eastern part of your nation, It will be a safety valve for India... Your problem with the Western Pashtun population is somewhat similar to our NE Problem...NE people are culturally really different than the rest of India...Even today, we have simply bribed/contained or bought peace with that region( except Assam and Arunachal)... So GOI is spending a huge sum of money to get the people in mainstream...

So you can try to apply the same policy too...At least you have a huge advantage over all these people with the same religion..So i am really surprised to see why Pakistan's stakeholders are not able to bring them to the mainstream in spite of everyone being from more or less the same culture and religion.

 

[SQ8]

I am sorry if my points are misunderstood by you. I have no intention to see Pakistan be the hotbed of another insurgency...Beyond popular opinion amongst Indians, I am of a strong opinion that as long as Pakistan and its mainstream politics, culture, and narrative are driven by the eastern part of your nation, It will be a safety valve for India... Your problem with the Western Pashtun population is somewhat similar to our NE Problem...NE people are culturally really different than the rest of India...Even today, we have simply bribed/contained or bought peace with that region( except Assam and Arunachal)... So GOI is spending a huge sum of money to get the people in mainstream...

So you can try to apply the same policy too...At least you have a huge advantage over all these people with the same religion..So i am really surprised to see why Pakistan's stakeholders are not able to bring them to the mainstream in spite of everyone being from more or less the same culture and religion.

I leave you Iqbal’s original address from 1930
@indushek

“Thus, possessing full opportunity of development within the body politic of India, the North-West Indian Muslims will prove the best defenders of India against a foreign invasion, be that invasion one of ideas or of bayonets. The Punjab with 56 percent Muslim population supplies 54 percent of the total combatant troops in the Indian Army, and if the 19,000 Gurkhas recruited from the independent State of Nepal are excluded, the Punjab contingent amounts to 62 percent of the whole Indian Army. This percentage does not take into account nearly 6,000 combatants supplied to the Indian Army by the North-West Frontier Province and Baluchistan. From this you can easily calculate the possibilities of North-West Indian Muslims in regard to the defence of India against foreign aggression”

 

[ziaulislam]

Correct.

And it saddens me that even sane members like @ziaulislam fall for the false narrative of the army in cahoots with TTP. Why is such lack of objectivity? This forum was a fanboi club of the Pakistani military but since Imran Khan is out of power every wrong in the country is because of the the military?? Do you not know that there is no 'revolution' around the corner and by removing the one and only stable institution of Pakistan, what the future will bring? Do you not know that Imran Khan is already around 70 years old? Do you not already see a void once he croaks? Who will run the country then? Not that Imran is a shining example of intellect anyway. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!! Otherwise, there are horrible examples of such 'revolutions' in regions not far from Pakistan.

Coming to this topic: In my opinion, Pakistan has been harvesting (since mid 2000s) what Pakistan had sown during the Soviet-Afghan 'Jihad' of the 1980s. While that was almost certainly a majority decision of Pakistanis, except for some voices like that of Wali Khan of ANP, the blame eventually lies with the Establishment's Zia ul Haq because it was a Martial Law govt. The children of that Jihad were bound to hurt Pakistan once the Jihad was over and that's what they are exactly doing.

As for the Pashtoon aspect: The tribal area of Pakistan was always very different from the rest of Pakistan--different from even the Pashtoons of Swat or Indus Kohistan regions. They lived mentally in another century. And when they were used as the foot-soldiers, along with their cousins in Afghanistan, it was bound to happen what is happening now. And, yes, it was and is fairly easy to 'employ' such people to blow themselves up.

So what's the solution? As harsh as @Goritoes idea of 'concentration camps' sound, Pakistan, if it wants to survive as a nation, will have to take drastic measures and it should not be based on ethnicities but on data. Otherwise, there will be the continued strife in Pakistan, holding Pakistan back. Most of Pakistan is still unaffected by the sickness of the tribal 'Islam' as it afflicts a select region of Pakistan so there is still time to act. Many years ago, on this very forum, I had floated the idea of such concentration camps! Call them 're-education camps' if you like. You can find my post from then!

Not really I am just saying the only reasonable explanation for army corps commanders not to care about common soldiers is (and they don't that is settled point) getting brownie points or coalition support funds

If someone has a better explanation please let me know I am here. No one has given me any other reasonable explanation that why army is Not buying cheap protective equipment that poorer countries bought or why army not being proactive even in absence of any other local players in Afghanistan (there isn't USA that u can't do anything)


It's pretty much logical conclusion that if you rule out all other possibility the one left no matter how wild it is, is probably true

Remember it's been 20 yrs since requirement of MRAPs and we don't see any.

It's been 2 years since everyone left Afghanistan and we are still having our hands tied

 

[Meengla]

You also mentioned Peshawar - why is it changing in a more "progressive" manner? Exactly the reason I mentioned above - exposure to Punjabi cultural influence which makes them more open minded and less hateful.

Same way Pashtuns in Afghanistan only become like this through Persian influence.

Any pure Pashtun following his individual tribal culture of Pashtunwali is ethno-facistic by nature and cannot live in harmony with other races.

I'd say the cultural differences of western and Eastern Pakistan are too distant which prevents social cohesion and harmony. If Pakistan is to survive and be stable, western Pakistan must be integrated to Eastern culture or at least to a significant degree.

There really ARE two Pakistans! The eastern regions are very different socially and even linguistically from the western regions. Have we wondered how Urdu Speakers, Sindhi, Potoharis, Punjabis, Seraikis, Hindkos etc from eastern Pakistan are able to communicate much better with each other than they would Pashto or Balochi speakers?? Look at the marriage customs differences too!

So you can try to apply the same policy too...At least you have a huge advantage over all these people with the same religion..So i am really surprised to see why Pakistan's stakeholders are not able to bring them to the mainstream in spite of everyone being from more or less the same culture and religion.

I appreciate your honestly in your post. Well worth reading your entire post. Pakistan did try to introduce education, rebuilding infra, and even reversal of the brainwashing of the terrorists in the tribal region after sometime in 2015. I think things were going in right direction, even if slowly, but with the American exodus from Afghanistan in August 2021, the likes of the TTP have gained some momentum back; it doesn't help that the rifts in Pakistan's ruling elites started to happen just around that time and one can go back to Sept/October of 2021 to see the rift happening. It was ALL about power and the central issue was the next Army Chief and no one is innocent on that count. But that has unfortunately been a huge distraction from governance and tackling the militancy.

Not really I am just saying the only reasonable explanation for army corps commanders not to care about common soldiers is (and they don't that is settled point) getting brownie points or coalition support funds

You are smarter than that. You know the militants had even attacked the GHQ and also launched attacks on mosques to target the military officials of higher ranking. They are certainly not on Pakistani military's payroll and @Areesh is consistently correct on that point in this thread.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

how didn't they go full speed if even today everyone is still crying about all those drone strikes and operations in waziristan?...

Pakistan Army had majority of the population's support for an operation. How did the APS planners get away and able to hide in Afghanistan with no real repercussion from Pakistan? Even Ehsanullah Ehsan was released...

 

[Mirzali Khan]

PTM and Lar au Bar Yao Afghan wouldn't exist if this was true.

PTM was founded after Naqeebullah Maseed's encounter, the movement went off its original path and were rubbing elbows with PPP (the ones who control Sindh police lol).

All the Lar O Bar Yao Afghan parties died in the 2013 election in KPK, they got wiped out by PTI. 2018 saw the death of those parties in Balochistan. Only Islamist parties and PTI won the bulk of the Pashtun areas.

Have no idea why you are overexaggerating the threat of Lar O Bar Yao Afghan when its practically dead in Pakistan.

 

[ziaulislam]

There really ARE two Pakistans! The eastern regions are very different socially and even linguistically from the western regions. Have we wondered how Urdu Speakers, Sindhi, Potoharis, Punjabis, Seraikis, Hindkos etc from eastern Pakistan are able to communicate much better with each other than they would Pashto or Balochi speakers?? Look at the marriage customs differences too!



I appreciate your honestly in your post. Well worth reading your entire post. Pakistan did try to introduce education, rebuilding infra, and even reversal of the brainwashing of the terrorists in the tribal region after sometime in 2015. I think things were going in right direction, even if slowly, but with the American exodus from Afghanistan in August 2021, the likes of the TTP have gained some momentum back; it doesn't help that the rifts in Pakistan's ruling elites started to happen just around that time and one can go back to Sept/October of 2021 to see the rift happening. It was ALL about power and the central issue was the next Army Chief and no one is innocent on that count. But that has unfortunately been a huge distraction from governance and tackling the militancy.



You are smarter than that. You know the militants had even attacked the GHQ and also launched attacks on mosques to target the military officials of higher ranking. They are certainly not on Pakistani military's payroll and @Areesh is consistently correct on that point in this thread.

I never said they are on payroll..I said military is not serious on tackling the issue because it's in their interest that low intensity high causality attacks continue (brownie points) and the upper leadership remains intact.. similar phenomenon was seen in srilanka where there were no serious efforts to tackle the Tamil threat.

We clearly see that here..lack of seriousness.. military will chop the stem but will not root it out for reasons stated above

Pakistan Army had majority of the population's support for an operation. How did the APS planners get away and able to hide in Afghanistan with no real repercussion from Pakistan? Even Ehsanullah Ehsan was released...

Well let's say he escapes did we see a report published or a senate hearings..this is democracy and you expect people backing so why wasn't anything done..??

What I am saying is that even APS parents, FC members are now saying military leadership isn't serious and is in cahoots with terrorists (though I don't believe this I believe they are simply not serious as once threat goes away they think their value will decrease. We hear all the time military citing Syria as an example for a reason)

 

[Mirzali Khan]

I've heard it countless times, especially from Pashtun nats.

Bro ngl I think that's what's sort of distorting your view. The ones online who I think you're talking to don't represent the ground reality. If what they were saying was true then all of KPK would've spat in his face and wouldn't have voted for other parties like TTP in an election. Also all of Pashtun majority regions would've seen an insurgency since 1947, which also isn't the case.

From the people I know and follow, diaspora has a negative view on the state and army, but support PTI.

 

[xyxmt]

I think we should get the drones ready.

we have no drones, but we can have our audio video recording agency ready to record terrorists in very compromising situation and then kill them by humiliation.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

How many non-Pashtuns realistically live in any of the tribal districts or outside of some urban hotspots? What is the population of non-Pashtuns in general in Pashtun areas?

You migrate freely to other lands and settle there, make money, but you would not allow the same in your own land and would complain.

I can ask the same for Balochistan and Interior Sindh, its a development issue.

 

[Zornix]

the pajeet comes out of you a lot (makes sense because you are Indian).

He is a Muhajir, so it comes as no shock his Hindustaniyat comes oozing out in every thread he vomits on. I really hope most of his ilk do not share his mentality. Btw, the term "pajeet" is as Punjabi as it gets, so it is very ironic for Pakistanis to use it.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

I know you're pashtun so you want to beat around the bush

What does him being Pashtun have to do with "beating around the bush"

most of his ilk do not share his mentality.

I know a lot of them in the US, a lot of them are very smart. Also pretty chill, never had an issue in real life with them.

 

[TheSolution]

Bro ngl I think that's what's sort of distorting your view. The ones online who I think you're talking to don't represent the ground reality. If what they were saying was true then all of KPK would've spat in his face and wouldn't have voted for other parties like TTP in an election. Also all of Pashtun majority regions would've seen an insurgency since 1947, which also isn't the case.

From the people I know and follow, diaspora has a negative view on the state and army, but support PTI.

Probably to a certain degree, yes

 

[Zornix]

diaspora has a negative view on the state and army, but support PTI.

The PTI is army supported. It would be very foolish to support any of these politicians as they all are hand in glove with the military, despite claiming to despise in front of the public.

 

[TheSolution]

What I am saying is that even APS parents, FC members are now saying military leadership isn't serious and is in cahoots with terrorists (though I don't believe this I believe they are simply not serious as once threat goes away they think their value will decrease. We hear all the time military citing Syria as an example for a reason)

But keeping the terrorism alive is having a serious impact in other areas, I don't think it's a trade worth making.

How much FDI or tourism, investment, do you think we have lost due to the security situation?

Although what you're saying does sound possible honestly