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Tribune survey: Online Pakistanis ‘Muslim’ first, ‘Pakistani’ second

SO what is India's problem if Pakistanis want to identify themselves as muslim first. Infact majority of muslims around the world
would identify themselves as muslim first and rightly so. Nationalism based on race, colour & language is haram in ISLAM. It is
as simple as that and that is why Islam has the concept of Chaliphate and not individual nations. Nationalism and breakdown
of muslim states is the root cause of the awful state we are in now. But I don't expect islamophobic indians to understand
such things so you should not start threads on topics on which you have 0 understanding.
 
Needs to be Pakistan first then Religion then human.

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

Also getting rid of the Wahabi style and replace with a much more sufi tone.
 
Let me introduce myself to you. I am an ethnic Kashmiri who speaks the Urdu language as his mother tongue and I'm fiercely proud of both. Furthermore, I live in Lahore, Punjab and Lahore is dearer to me then even Mecca ever can be. Do you know why ? The answer is Punjab and its culture. My friend, the Punjabi culture is characterized by inclusivity, and this is valid for both Punjabis on both sides of the divide. In Pakistan what this means is that you may belong to any ethnic or linguistic or, to, unfortunately, a lesser extent, to any religion, but as a Pakistani you are one of us.
Punjab is home to millions of Baloch, Sindhis, Pathans, Kashmiris, Urdu-Speakers and a whole host of other nationalities. At the time of the partition millions crossed into what is present day Pakistani Punjab and millions did settle here. If anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, millions of Urdu-Speakers (or Mohajirs) are settled in Punjab's cities. Not once has any single Punjabi leader, never mind the people of Punjab, have ever cried foul that our language or our demography or our jobs are under threat because of these 'others', these 'Non-Punjabis'. As someone who isn't an ethnic Punjabi and who speaks the Punjabi language with an accent that would give BullehShah a heart attack, I have never seen a single instance of even the most mildest form of ethnicity or linguistic based discrimination in Punjab. I have never, ever, had the feeling of being 'the other', nor have my parents, nor my siblings or anyone of my non-Punjabi friends, for the culture of Punjab would find such kind of exclusivity as being utterly unacceptable.

As for the Islamic bit: Yes, there are many Muslims amongst us (across the provinces) who equate Arabinization with Islam and who do follow a fairly rigid interpretation of Islam. Thankfully, contrary to the world opinion, they are a minority. We wouldn't be having so many Urs in Punjab if Sufism hadn't roots here. Besides, there isn't a Wahabi Islam and a Sufi Islam - there are may different streams of Islam. The majority of us here do not prescribe to a rigid interpretation of Islam but we don't go to Mazars or Saintly Mausoleums either, and yet we are peace loving people. Allah Hafez and Khuda Hafez are both very much said here and neither is one Arabic nor the other Persian, for Hafez is a Persian word per se.

As for Pakistan being a secular state turned into something else. Whether Pakistan was supposed to be a Secular state or an Islamist one is a moot point because Islam enshrines all that Jinnah talked about : democracy, religious pluralism, equality, women's emancipation, liberalism and education. As it so happens, the Pakistan of today is neither Islamic in the purest sense of the word nor is it Secular - its anything but Jinnah and Iqbal's Pakistan.

Of course you are not discriminated against - you seem an erudite, educated and probably well-off individual. Discrimination almost never occurs in the case of the well heeled. In India too, while an Azim Premji will not be discriminated against that doesn't mean Muslims are not discriminated against. In USA a Kobe Bryant might not be discriminated against, that doesn't mean that African Americans are not discriminated against. However, the problem in Pakistan is that the discrimination is enshrined in its constitution - against Ahmadis, against Hindus and other minorities. This is not the case in India or USA. Once discrimination receives state sanction - the likelihood of things improving are pretty remote.
 
The last thing we need is for someone from Hindu-stan to teach us about our religion.
Terms such as punjabi army, and now Punjabi Islam are invented by a looser group ( and you know what i mean).
Pak Army is one of the most fair institutions and follows strict parameters irrespective of creed / class / ethnicity.

Neither Allah Hafiz nor Khuda Hafiz are arabic NOR persian.
These salutations are specific to the subcontinent.

Punjab divided or pre-partition would have dominated ANY state in the subcontinent.
It has more water, agriculture and young workforce than any other state. ( the person who won me over with this argument was an indian Councillor in a certain embassy ).

Punjab has very less to do with "wahabi" islam. Punjab leans towards the more "sufi" traits.


Ok, enough or do you want more education ?
Next time, value your dignity and don't make comments about what you don't understand.




Your lack of knowledge and inability to study history will continue to cause you shame.
The Idea of Pakistan was proposed by Dr Allama Iqbal.
The reason for the idea was simple. i.e Muslims in a unified Hindu-stan will always be a minority and will not be able to achieve their future goals.

Pak Army is one of the most fair institutions and follows strict parameters irrespective of creed / class / ethnicity.
Ahem - true. That sure as hell explains why they have fingers in every pie unrelated to defense - from housing schemes to awarding themselves pensions which are about 5 times the level of pensions given to civilians. And this fair institution has another brilliant feather in its cap which highlights what you call "follows strict parameters irrespective of creed / class / ethnicity" - it is called Operation Searchlight.

Next brilliant statement of yours -
Neither Allah Hafiz nor Khuda Hafiz are arabic NOR persian.
These salutations are specific to the subcontinent.

Absolute hogwash. Khuda is a Persian term for God and is not religion specific. Parsis in India who follow the Zoroastrian faith also refer to the Almighty as Khuda. On the other hand Hafiz is an Arab word which means protection.

Now this gem -
Punjab divided or pre-partition would have dominated ANY state in the subcontinent.
It has more water, agriculture and young workforce than any other state

Haha - no. There is a lot of water flowing into Bengal too. And agriculture was widespread across India - from the tea gardens of Assam to coffee plantations of the South. And yet, India suffered famines every 4 odd years. India became self-sufficient in food after the green revolution of the 1960s. The entire subcontinent is young - there is not a single graying state anywhere in the Indian subcontinent.

Finally -
The last thing we need is for someone from Hindu-stan to teach us about our religion.
No, it is the first thing you need. And the name is India.
 
Sab say pehlay hay Islam, jaan say bhi pehlay...

It's my (and hopefully all muslm's) belief that being Pakistani won't help us in the hereafter, but being good muslims will..
 
Of course you are not discriminated against - you seem an erudite, educated and probably well-off individual. Discrimination almost never occurs in the case of the well heeled. In India too, while an Azim Premji will not be discriminated against that doesn't mean Muslims are not discriminated against. In USA a Kobe Bryant might not be discriminated against, that doesn't mean that African Americans are not discriminated against. However, the problem in Pakistan is that the discrimination is enshrined in its constitution - against Ahmadis, against Hindus and other minorities. This is not the case in India or USA. Once discrimination receives state sanction - the likelihood of things improving are pretty remote.

Indeed, like I said in another post : The more I read about Jinnah and the works of Iqbal, it seems that we've gone terribly wrong because we've institutionalized and worse, made it socially acceptable, to discriminate others simply because they wouldn't agree with us. We went for a Pakistan because we believed that the Hindu Nationalists and a segment of the Hindu Elite wouldn't let us live in peace and develop our own Islamic identity and yet there is dislike and distrust of all Hindus in Pakistan despite Jinnah specifically saying something to the effect of 'we haven't a quarrel with all of them, for the vast majority of Hindus are peace loving people...its only with a segment of the society who want British Raj to turn into Hindu Raj, that we fight against'. The same can be said about the Ahmedis, despite the fact that their religious leader was shoulder to shoulder with the members of the Muslim League in demanding a Pakistan and that Mr.Abdussallam, an Ahmedi, was more patriotic than a million other Pakistanis out there. The same can be said about other minorities. The Blasphemy law for one, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't any sanction whatsoever in the Quran or the Sunnah, and yets its there. Some Laws are outdated and stifling for our women and yet they are still there.

To that effect there needs to be a reassessment of fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) in the light of modern discoveries and changing role of non-muslims in the world. For example, there is something called 'Idat' which essentially implies that a women should try observe a period of waiting in which she mustn't marry another man and try to be reserved in her social interactions, especially with men - now this was done to ensure that the paternity of any would be offspring doesn't come into question both in actuality and in perception. However, clearly, with recent advances in Science, such a dilemma is not faced anymore, as it was hundreds of years ago and neither is this valid for any older women. The first aspect of it has been eluded to by a plethora of religious scholars out there and the second part was already established by many leading medieval Islamic scholars and jurists out there, and yet most of their voices get drowned by these chest thumbing bearded baboons out there who instead of being polymaths like their predecessors would be commenting on what the Quran does or doesn't say, without even having a working knowledge of Arabic Literature.

Do you know, Secularism or at least a certain kind of it, was being discussed by medieval Muslim polymaths; though its more of a religious and legal pluralism kind than a disassociation of religion per se. If you were to historically contextualize the reign of the Ottomans when they constituted the Turkish Millet System, of the Prophet's Governance and of the Kingdom of Al-Andalusia, all of them were shinning examples of religious and legal pluralism, women's emancipation and freedom of education. Jewish polymaths like Maimonides, whose work holds canonical value in Talmudic law, was having fiery discussions on theology with Muslim theologians in Cordoba without fear of any reprisal. The same Maimonides coined Jewish law for the Jewish subjects of Al-Andalusia in line with legal pluralism that the State (and Islam) talked about. Do you know, Jinnah wasn't being cute when he said that 'Islam and its idealism has taught us democracy, it has taught us the equality of man...' because the Quran talks about all of those things, because the State of Medina and its charter are exemplary in their religious and legal pluralism, women's emancipation and some form of national cohesion - and parallels of it couldn't be drawn anywhere in the world till very recently in the past 1 or 2 centuries.

As a Muslim I believe in the infallibility of the Book and I believe in the Laws given in them, however, like all laws they too have a 'letter' and a 'spirit' to them...and no law can be applicable many, many years since its inception without the 'spirit' part of it. Many Mullahs of ours are willing to chop off people's hands without realizing that Omar bin Khattab (whom the Sunnis hold in high esteem as the 2nd Caliph of Islam) forbade doing exactly that because of famine, because a person was forced by circumstances to do as such, because someone wasn't a repeat offender etc. The same Omar said something to the effect of : Omar bin Khattab is responsible to God even for a dog that dies of thirst on the banks of Nile. And yet, all those aspects of good governance, justice and flexibility are forgotten to the rage of mindless bigotry.

In short, no where but the Muslim World, has Marx's observation that 'Religion is the opium for the masses' been more true. We've got a population thats more illiterate than at anytime in the history of the Muslim world and we expect them to understand the nuances of faith. A reassessment of religious principles in the light of modernity is required otherwise our bigotry will be the end of us. Iqbal lamented the same when he wrote his treatise 'A reconstruction of religious thought in Islam' to get the ball rolling, unfortunately, no one followed through with it.

But make no mistake, the alternative is not a secular system of affairs where religion not only takes a back-seat but is actively castigated and ridiculed at times. No, for religion is just an intensifier, a focal point, if you will....and it will be replaced by another (ethnicity,language etc). The real solution truly is the reconstruction of religious thought in Islam, of critical thinking based education imparted to the masses so that, as Jinnah said : each Muslim becomes a priest of his own, and of finally waking up from the slumber of ignorance and apathy that the Muslims are embroiled in - the same dormancy that Iqbal hollered over and over about.

Jinnah wanted a Pakistan which epitomizes democracy, the rule of law, religious and legal pluralism, where the Mosques are not just for praying five times a day but where intellectuals and scholars would routinely debate matters of varying significance for the average man, and the average man would actually think and ponder over every letter of every word of the Book and will have more than a working knowledge of a plethora of subjects out there, where our scholars will measure up to the high standards set by people like Avicenna and Averroes, where our women stand shoulder to shoulder with our men to drive this great nation forward and male chauvinism is looked on as a disease, where our minorities are a celebrated part of our identity as signified by the white in our flag and where we truly can show the world, as was intended, what an Islamic state can be. Inshallah, such a Pakistan will be realized, for if there is to be a Pakistan it must be Jinnah's Pakistan and not just a piece of land.
 
I am proud of my fellow Pakistanis. Yes, Muslim first !!!!!!!!

indians stop stressing. you don't understand us. We are not the same nation as you people.
 
SO what is India's problem if Pakistanis want to identify themselves as muslim first. Infact majority of muslims around the world
would identify themselves as muslim first and rightly so. Nationalism based on race, colour & language is haram in ISLAM. It is
as simple as that and that is why Islam has the concept of Chaliphate and not individual nations. Nationalism and breakdown
of muslim states is the root cause of the awful state we are in now. But I don't expect islamophobic indians to understand
such things so you should not start threads on topics on which you have 0 understanding.

as far as i know....there are 52 islamic NATIONS....may i know y??.

i think asking or giving or INTERESTS is also HARAM in islam...may i know how many countries have interest free economic system??

IDOL WORSHIP is banned in islam....then what are dargahs and why is it necessary to face mecca while reading namaz??
 
and i request all the members who are glorifying this stuff to go thru the comments

one of which i really liked: "why did we ask for a separate nation if we are muslims first?...we would have been muslims in undivided india too"
 
Same goes to me.. I am a Muslim First and Pakistani second.
 
Come to Pakistan and walk amongst us. You'd be surprised how many of us are not we've been projected to be.

All the surveys show otherwise, including scientifically conducted. You almost said islam needs to be reassessed in words and spirit (post 34)... sorry but its hard to believe you being even a significant number, let alone majority.

1184.gif
 
All the surveys show otherwise, including scientifically conducted. You almost said islam needs to be reassessed in words and spirit (post 34)... sorry but its hard to believe you being even a significant number, let alone majority.

1184.gif

If this PEW research was actually correct, why aren't stoning, whippings, cutting of hands used in Pakistan as punishments? Why aren't the Islamists in power in Pakistan, & why do they get approval ratings of 2-3% in Pakistan from the people?
 
All the surveys show otherwise, including scientifically conducted. You almost said islam needs to be reassessed in words and spirit (post 34)... sorry but its hard to believe you being even a significant number, let alone majority.

1184.gif

No, I said that Islamic Jurisprudence (fiqh) needs to be reinterpreted because each of those fatwas (legal opinions) were issued in a particular historical, societal and, perhaps, intellectual context. Then there is the other argument out there of the separation of fiqh from Sharia (divine law). As it so happens, I'm not against chopping off people's hands for theft, and yet I'm equally fine with the our current system - a little like not agreeing with the death penalty being too inhumane, but that there is a whole history and contextualization of that practice, one on which scholars on Islam had previously written countless thousands of pages worth of text. My quarrel with many our self-styled religious scholars out there is that why do they have such a myopic view of Islamic Law, when each and everyone of those edicts, have a lot of strings attached to them. I was reading a book the other day on Islamic Law, written by a Cambridge Professor, I've forgotten the name, but the guy had made this observation that the concepts of 'innocent until proven guilty', of 'proof beyond any reasonable doubt' and a whole host of other English Civil Law fundamentals had already been coined by Muslim Jurists hundreds of years ago. Thats where I'm strongly at loggerheads with many of our religious scholars who talk half-truths and complete lies to show Islamic Law as if we've been chopping people's hands off as soon as a robber is found.

As for the poll that you posted. Polls are inherently flawed because of sampling and perception, in fact, I borrow this from my marketing class : Jon A. Krosnick, a Stanford political science professor who has spent the past eight years studying the efficacy of surveys says that Drawing hard conclusions from online polls, he adds, can be "like making an automobile out of soft plastic."

The following poll had it been perceived to be antisemitic would have almost assuredly been different :
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The following poll too can be misconstrued as indicating that religious totalitarianism - where religion has a significant say in your daily life, is on the rise, perhaps Secularism is under threat, perhaps extrapolating the effects of this rising religiosity and its link with wealth and hence power, means that more people who are traditionally thought of as 'the other' - e.g gays, Muslims etc., may be more marginalized than before.
167-1.gif


So Again I say, Mr.Fateh, come and walk amongst us and you'd see that not many of us are what we've been portrayed. And as Mr.Bilal implied how many stonnings and how many amputations are happening in Lahore, in Karachi or even in the tribal areas where the writ of the government is established.
 

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