Tribals Regions Should be Constitutionalized

[IceCold]

Well thankyou for slapping me in the face for exercising my right to freedom of speech. For speaking my mind my own fellow country man and muslim brother wants to disperse me to indian froum. Thankyou for your hospitality and understanding.

Actually you are the one who was having problems with the people of this forum. I happen to be one of them. Your fellow country men, you must be kidding me if i'm not worng wasnt it was you who protayed afghanies as your brother because they happen to the speak the same language you do while calling us indians who just happen to be indipendent 60yrs ago. Look at you, you criticize one thing, and then when criticize backed you come up with hospitality BS. We dont need to show you any hospitality or understanding, you are the same part of pakistan we are provided you want to be. Hospitality, honour and gesture are provided to guests and you are not a guest here, provided again you and you alone dont want to be one.

 

[bobloblaw]

Mr Awaaz...
I myself am a pukhtun, and I also hold views different from those of the the forum members. However, I am different from you in the sense that I consider myself a Pakistani, not an Afghani caveman.
I think that there are many pukhtuns like myself who want to do better for Pakistan and see it prosper, and see the likes of backward minded people like you out of Pakistan. They want to be in Pakistan because they know that they have no future in Afghanistan. It has WAY TOO MANY PROBLEMS!!! Whereas people like you want to go back to the easy life, when everyone lived in caves and lived off the land and each other.
Many pukhtun think that FATA should be developed and not left as a "caveman" safe haven.
I think that this forum allows people to free speech and express their ideas, but when some idiot caveman like yourself comes along to try and ruin the dignity of this forum by attacking its members in the name of free speech, then we slap you in the face.

 

[Awaaz]

Mr Awaaz...
I myself am a pukhtun, and I also hold views different from those of the the forum members. However, I am different from you in the sense that I consider myself a Pakistani, not an Afghani caveman.
I think that there are many pukhtuns like myself who want to do better for Pakistan and see it prosper, and see the likes of backward minded people like you out of Pakistan. They want to be in Pakistan because they know that they have no future in Afghanistan. It has WAY TOO MANY PROBLEMS!!! Whereas people like you want to go back to the easy life, when everyone lived in caves and lived off the land and each other.
Many pukhtun think that FATA should be developed and not left as a "caveman" safe haven.
I think that this forum allows people to free speech and express their ideas, but when some idiot caveman like yourself comes along to try and ruin the dignity of this forum by attacking its members in the name of free speech, then we slap you in the face.

I never at any point have said that i am not proud of my pakistani heritage, nor have i at any point said i have no pride in being a pakistani, i am not saying that development shouldnt be taking place, but what i am against is forcing development and other things on people without their understanding and cooperation.

If you want pakistan to be safer and civilised and developed then you need to have fairness and just system, which is not place in pakistan. Goverment and others are pushing for development and law and order yet it was the police who attcked geo news, we have president that is power which conflicts with the legal system. So in these cases these so called cvilised leaders awho wish to bring development and law and order to various regoins dont follow what they preach.

You hold some different views from me, but thats natural because we are individuals and have right to different views. I would hardly say that i am a caveman, as far as education goes how do you know what my educational levels are?. By calling people of fata and other regions cavemen is prejudice by your side someone who is educated and be against prejudice views.

 

[Awaaz]

Actually you are the one who was having problems with the people of this forum. I happen to be one of them. Your fellow country men, you must be kidding me if i'm not worng wasnt it was you who protayed afghanies as your brother because they happen to the speak the same language you do while calling us indians who just happen to be indipendent 60yrs ago. Look at you, you criticize one thing, and then when criticize backed you come up with hospitality BS. We dont need to show you any hospitality or understanding, you are the same part of pakistan we are provided you want to be. Hospitality, honour and gesture are provided to guests and you are not a guest here, provided again you and you alone dont want to be one.

I never called my self an afghan yet my racial group is related and language and culture, while on the other hand i have not much common with non pushtoon pakistani apart from religion and country, i meant to say that you as in punjabis and sindhis have more racial relationship with people of india then north pakistan, i am not wrong in saying that if you study carefully.

But that doesnt mean that we are not all pakistanis and dont work for a common goal, yes i get frustrated at what is happening in pakistan and sometimes speak in the heat of the moment but that is never directed towards and ordinaryu pakistani but towards the goverment and military.

 

[IceCold]

I never called my self an afghan yet my racial group is related and language and culture, while on the other hand i have not much common with non pushtoon pakistani apart from religion and country, i meant to say that you as in punjabis and sindhis have more racial relationship with people of india then north pakistan, i am not wrong in saying that if you study carefully.

But that doesnt mean that we are not all pakistanis and dont work for a common goal, yes i get frustrated at what is happening in pakistan and sometimes speak in the heat of the moment but that is never directed towards and ordinaryu pakistani but towards the goverment and military.

Belonging to the same race, skin, culture, language doesnt necessarly makes you any part of them. I gave you an example, let me quote it this way, We can speak urdu, we watch the same movies, we kinda look similar, but does that makes us indian or part of india. No. It doesnt, we are pakistanies and remember pakistan is made up of people of all relegion traditions customs, languages, but these things should not be given priority but pakistan. My ancestors migrated from iran to this region, so does that mean i should start having my loyalties with the iranian then pakistan because my ancestors spoked the same language the iranians did. No. One more thing the way you see things we punjabis dont, for instance i gave you an example which you tend to ignore was that in lahore a captial city of punjab, pathans are enjoying a very luxuricous life, they have well payed jobs, flashy cars, living in defence. The point is we dont see towards you as a pathan rather a pakistani and if you have skill you are welcomed in every aspect of life, there isnt any racist thing shown here but on the other hand this is not the case with you people where not all but most including you sees us as some degrading indian specie because we look different or we cant speak pashtu.
One more thing if you yourself are against development no one else will bother, its you who have to take your part of development from pakistan and get with equal footing with the rest of the province. As for the government they come and go, they are not permanent and its your vote that counts. You vote a wrong guy then expect him to do something and if he doesnt blame punjab for failure. What for? Did we ask you to vote them? No. One more thing you dislike BB, well shes from sindh and not punjab and punjab has faced the most worst in her tenure then any other province did.

 

[UnKnOwN]

for past sixty years most of pakistani polictics have been hijacked by punjbais, there is 80 percent of them in the military.

Wasn't there a study that just came out finding around 56% of the military has Punjabis and that the government was working towards of increasing the diversity?

You sound like a separatist. You presented a argument in which you did not state a single fact. All you stated were accusation against Punjab. You speak as if "Pakistan" does not exist and there was only one country called "Punjab". Do you think there is a conspiracy to keep Punjab the most important province? Yes, I will tell you that there is corruption in the Pakistani Government but that does not mean they are thinking of Punjab.

 

[Cheetah786]

It veered because it was felt by some that there was no Punjabi domination.

But for this, there would be no Bangladesh or the Baloch problem or Sindh objection to the Dam.

That is all that I wish to state.

One must see reality.

Lets reverse that question whats the percentage of punjabies in indian armed forces.
See most pakistanies dont see these questions have been designed to divide them.he look there is 2 many of this language in this department.hey look sunnis are killing shias hey look shias are killing sunnies.
these questions have been there to create divide and rule.
now to my question whats the percentage of punjabies in indian armed forces.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Lets reverse that question whats the percentage of punjabies in indian armed forces.
See most pakistanies dont see these questions have been designed to divide them.he look there is 2 many of this language in this department.hey look sunnis are killing shias hey look shias are killing sunnies.
these questions have been there to create divide and rule.
now to my question whats the percentage of punjabies in indian armed forces.

They used to be a majority.

Right now, there is all state representation as a quota system has been imposed in the recruitment of PBOR (Personnel below the Officer rank).

That is why a great number of them are going off to Canada and the West where agriculturists are badly required. The western people, inspite of mechanisation, do not have the heart and will to work hard for better yields. One has to just see the financial success that the Sikh farmers are harvest in the US and Canada and interestingly, they were not well educated either! The Sikhs are real hard working and industrious and are a community that will impose their will like it or not!

In Pakistan, Hindu or Parsi temples can be destroyed, buy try doing so to a Sikh Temple. It will be news as is that of the Nankana Saheb in Lahore!
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab

As far as Shia and Sunni problem in Pakistan, the divide cannot be claimed to be fostered by foreign elements. It is inherent in the Islamic history! Even the fact that a Moslem Pakistani General is looking after the Sikh religious asset is not being taken kindly by the Sikhs.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mastan Khan and others,

My apologies for digressing from the subject of the topic for these couple of posts, they will be the last off topic ones on this thread from me.

for past sixty years most of pakistani polictics have been hijacked by punjbais, there is 80 percent of them in the military.

Punjab’s dominance in army being reduced: ISPR
​

By Sher Baz Khan


ISLAMABAD, Sept 13: A planned effort is being made to revise the composition of the Pakistan Army by reducing the dominance of Punjab to a considerable level over a period of four years.

In 2001, the Punjabis constituted over 71 per cent of the army. The numerical strength was reduced in later years and has been brought down to just over 57 per cent this year. A further three per cent decrease in recruitment from that province is on the cards by 2011.

Punjab’s dominance in army being reduced: ISPR -DAWN - Top Stories; September 14, 2007

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It veered because it was felt by some that there was no Punjabi domination.

But for this, there would be no Bangladesh or the Baloch problem or Sindh objection to the Dam.

That is all that I wish to state.

One must see reality.

If by "domination" you wish to imply the deliberate and systematic preference and bias towards one ethnic group by the government and leadership of Pakistan, then I fail to see how that can be justified, considering the ethnicities of the majority of the individuals who have served as leaders of Pakistan, especially during some of the more turbulent times in our history.

Bangladesh:

Either Yahya Khan or Z A Bhutto - one a Pushtoon, the other a Sindhi.

Baluchistan:

Pakistani Leaders (excluding Quaid-e- Azam M A Jinnah, with loose ethnic affiliations, some gaps that I didn't consider important, but feel free to correct)

Liaquat Ali Khan (Pashtun)

Ayub Khan (Pashtun)

Yahya Khan (Pashtun)

ZA Bhutto (Sindhi)

Zia -ul- haq (Punjabi)

Benazir Bhutto (Sindhi)

Nawaz Sharif (Punjab)

Musharraf (muhajir)

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A good analysis, for those who think that the Pakistan Army's presence in the Tribal areas, to stem cross border attacks, is contrary to Pakistan's national interest:

Kasuri’s statement on NATO ‘action’​

The foreign minister, Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri, said on October 18 that if Pakistan did not take action against the “foreign elements” in the Tribal Areas, the NATO forces deployed in Afghanistan under UN resolution 1373 would decide to extend their operations into Pakistani territory. Reaction to the statement has been predictable, once again advising defiance of the “American policy”, and “dialogue” with the militants with the help of jirgas. There was a strong suggestion, in the criticism, of an official acknowledgment of the “compulsion” to take an action that Islamabad did not think justified.

One doesn’t have to repeat that the government has always asserted that the troops are in the Tribal Areas for Pakistan’s own security. It is enough to see what the warlords of the Tribal Areas are able to do in areas under normal administration, in other words, one can’t ignore the “loss of territory” taking place in areas contiguous to the Tribal Areas, and suicide-bombings as far afield as Islamabad. It is laughable to assume that merely “talking” to the “independent-minded” tribesmen will make the trouble go away. It is Al Qaeda that Pakistan will have to talk to from a position of strength rather than weakness. As for the NATO response, the UN Charter allows “hot pursuit” — and in Pakistan’s case the offenders to be pursued are located in an area that the state of Pakistan has already lost to warlords owing allegiance to Al Qaeda. So there are no simple solutions. Neither pure appeasement nor pure military reaction will work. We need to formulate a larger national consensus behind a sophisticated politico-religious strategy to neutralise Al Qaeda in the tribal areas. *

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

AM,

The Leaders mentioned are but the instruments of the ground swell and their survival instinct is more pronounced than their ethnicity.

Moreover, the Army is Punjabi majority and its influence and its role in moderating Pakistani politics is well documented in Musharraf's book. In fact, from 1951, the Army attempted influencing the govt. In 1951, an attempted coup was launched against the government by senior military leaders. Akbar Khan, chief of general staff, was arrested along with 14 other army officers for plotting the coup. This Rawalpindi Conspiracy, as it became known, was the first attempted military coup in Pakistan's history.

The civilian leaders mentioned are weather vanes and their conviction on issues, as has been repeated proved, is as fickle as the wind. Liaquat Ali was removed from the scene through assassination.

The manner in which Musharraf is being badgered is an indicator how the ground swell takes over the decision. Even Ayub, who was head and shoulders above all, had to go because of the ground swell! Yahyah,less said the better and Zia was a shrewd manipulator who pandered to the fundamentalist to save his position since Islam cannot be challenged in an Islamic country and thus played his cards well as a salute to the ground swell.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Bomb blast in south-west Pakistan

Balochistan map

At least seven people have died in a bomb blast in south-western Pakistan, and six are injured, police in the region say.

The explosion took place in the town of Dera Bugti in Balochistan province.

Some reports say the explosion was in a market, while others say the bomb was on a bus at a bus station.

Militants in Balochistan have been fighting for greater autonomy for the mineral-rich province for the last five years.

The Balochistan explosion was not thought to be directly related to Thursday's bomb blasts in Karachi, which killed 130 people.

The Karachi blasts were an unsuccessful attempt on the life of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, as she returned to Pakistan after eight years' self-imposed exile.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Bomb blast in south-west Pakistan

The terrorists seem to be getting out of hand.

Apparently there seems to be a concerted effort to ensure that the PPP Muahrraf alliance breaks up.

NS would love it and so would some within the Q League who are against the deal with BB.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM,

The Leaders mentioned are but the instruments of the ground swell and their survival instinct is more pronounced than their ethnicity.

Moreover, the Army is Punjabi majority and its influence and its role in moderating Pakistani politics is well documented in Musharraf's book. In fact, from 1951, the Army attempted influencing the govt. In 1951, an attempted coup was launched against the government by senior military leaders. Akbar Khan, chief of general staff, was arrested along with 14 other army officers for plotting the coup. This Rawalpindi Conspiracy, as it became known, was the first attempted military coup in Pakistan's history.

The civilian leaders mentioned are weather vanes and their conviction on issues, as has been repeated proved, is as fickle as the wind. Liaquat Ali was removed from the scene through assassination.

The manner in which Musharraf is being badgered is an indicator how the ground swell takes over the decision. Even Ayub, who was head and shoulders above all, had to go because of the ground swell! Yahyah,less said the better and Zia was a shrewd manipulator who pandered to the fundamentalist to save his position since Islam cannot be challenged in an Islamic country and thus played his cards well as a salute to the ground swell.

Interesting thoughts Salim, but you're all over the place.

The army is not a democracy. You need to make a case that its non-Punjabi leadership, that essentially exercised absolute power, was somehow forced into kowtowing to Punjabi demands.

It is a hypothesis that seems a stretch. You would have to show that the supporting cast of each was composed of Punjabi nationalists, who put up puppets. I doubt anyone would argue that most of those mentioned were puppets.

In the second part of your argument you veer of into "Zia pandering the fundamentalist", so now we have gone from the "Punjabi's running the show" to the "fundamentalists running the show".

To use your own example of "the Dam", the fact that it has not been constructed so far, indicates to me the lack of a "ground swell" as you put it, that is inherently pro-Punjab. Why all this bickering over it still? The Punjabi's should have had this built long ago, were your hypothesis true.

 

[bobloblaw]

I never at any point have said that i am not proud of my pakistani heritage, nor have i at any point said i have no pride in being a pakistani, i am not saying that development shouldnt be taking place, but what i am against is forcing development and other things on people without their understanding and cooperation.

If you want pakistan to be safer and civilised and developed then you need to have fairness and just system, which is not place in pakistan. Goverment and others are pushing for development and law and order yet it was the police who attcked geo news, we have president that is power which conflicts with the legal system. So in these cases these so called cvilised leaders awho wish to bring development and law and order to various regoins dont follow what they preach.

You hold some different views from me, but thats natural because we are individuals and have right to different views. I would hardly say that i am a caveman, as far as education goes how do you know what my educational levels are?. By calling people of fata and other regions cavemen is prejudice by your side someone who is educated and be against prejudice views.

I only refered to your ideas as those of a caveman, and I call all afghanis cavemen.....are people form FATA afghanis? NO!!! therefore, theyre not cavemen!!!