Trial of Kayani for not defending Pakistan

[Bratva]

Don't post crap, do u wanna tell me that :

1. pak army taken permission for Kargil????????

2. pak army takes permission for coup??????

3. If they can do that things that is not under their jurisdiction but can't defend against USA which is their duty????????

moron, was there any war on terror in 1999? You forgot how army dictator was forced to resign? Situation was different back then, army was not stuck in a gutter. Now army is stuck with very little public spot. Dont relate two different situations when your brain has fail to critically analyse the situation

 

[alibaz]

So, You think Zardari & Gillani must be sitting in GHQ and give the orders to shoot the intruder????

No just an executive order to PAF to down any intruder, they can do it while sitting in their offices. If he has to take this decision why not declare him Chief Executive.

 

[Sugarcane]

No just an executive order to PAF to down any intruder, they can do it while sitting in their offices. If he has to take this decision why not declare him Chief Executive.

It's like if a robber is trying to break in your house but your security has orders to take permission from you weather stop him or let him enter.

Do they take oath to defend country or follow the government orders? What if tomorrow zardari allows US to destroy Pakistan's nuke sites? Why these generals don't take permission from government for coup?

 

[Thor]

I agree that Keyani should stand trial, however along with him should stand the political leaders of Pakistan for War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity. US agents should also be detained, or at least threatened of such a trial, like when the ISI leaked the CIA directors name in Pakistan and a case was lodged against him in court, he broke for the nearest exit.

However to get our own house in order and deal with our leaders, the elite should stand trial and punished for their part of committing crimes against the own people.

 

[darkinsky]

the voting shows the mindset of pakistanis who think that army is holy organisation and should not be held accountable,and its devoid of any finger pointing, and our army is always right

 

[GURU DUTT]

with pun intended Kyaanee saheb should also be tried for not stopping likes of VM entering India ...ye unka hindustani kaum par zulm hai

 

[darkinsky]

double post

 

[OrionHunter]

Sir you can't blame him when you have civilian Government Sir so you can't even have the motion against him it is duty of Civilian Government to give orders not him

Incorrect! Defence of Pakistan is in the hands of the PA and NOT the civilian government which hasn't a clue of what's going on. American defence policy makers, Secretary of Defence and US military bosses meet first with Kayani and the ISI boss whenever they visit Pakistan and not government representatives.

So the question is: Why does Kayani and Co take orders from the Yanks and plan operations including drone attacks with them instead of from the democratically elected government? Because Pakistan defence policy is wholly the prerogative of the PA. Have you even heard of Pakistan's MoD and the defence minister? A lame duck government will naturally have a lame duck defence minister!!

But let's give the devil his due. No one expected Kayani to retaliate to American incursion to pluck out Osama. How could he even think of it, considering the consequences of a conflagration with a super power? Pakistan had no chance if push came to shove. I think Kayani took the right decision.

 

[VCheng]

You think Obama is on the phone all the time dealing with threats against America all the time? Defend America, no rocket science there. Rules of engagement can be set, which includes using deadly force if the threat is imminent. If you're going with this, I disagree, let the court decide on it, okay?

Your question was a drone flying in to DC. General threats to USA are part of the President's Daily Brief, which is presented to him every morning. Every day.

Defending USA or any country may not be rocket science, but it does need a clear chain of command and SOPs, with the constitutionally authorized leader at the very top.

Precedents have big value in courts.

Precedents are different than anecdotes:

precedent: An earlier event or action regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

anecdote: A short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person, or: An account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

Having said that, what precedent do you think applies to the trial you are proposing?

 

[Icarus]

I move for a trial of General Kayani for:

1. Allowing repeated drone attacks after repeated resolutions from the parliament against them

A thorough study of all drone attacks on Pakistani soil reveal that drone attacks took place in areas that were NOT under the control of the Pak Army, as they were captured by the Army, the drone attacks ceased. A study of the drone attacks in 2011 reveals that ALL took place in North Waziristan where the Army has negligible presence and the agency is run by a band of militias. How can the Army shoot down drones in an area where they have NO PRESENCE?

2. Not shooting down the US raid Choppers on May 2 after the PAF reportedly had a lock on them

Firstly, witness accounts clearly state that there was NO sound of any jets in the vicinity during the OBL Raid.
Secondly, the PAF DOES NOT follow the orders from the Chief of Army Staff. This allegation is false.

3. For failing to reign in on the culprits of the November, 2011 attackers on Salala Checkpost

Arrest the Apache pilots? Or the crew of the AC-130? Is that even diplomatically possible? Because all my study suggests it isn't. Has anyone arrested the crew of the Indian ships that bombed Karachi? Or did they call for an arrest of the men who bombed Dwarka? No country just hands it's soldiers over like that. They enjoy a certain protection under their state.

He personally is responsible for these failures as defending Pakistan comes under standing orders of the military. If he has been ordered not to defend Pakistan by the President, then he has to come out and declare this position.

If he did that, you would move a motion asking for his trail on grounds of over-stepping authority.

Please support the motion.

I'd rather not, the opposing argument is there for you to consider.

 

[Jango]

You have given them this right, why are you decrying them to me? Take it away from them, declare your country a military dictatorship.

I am talking according to the law as it stands right now. Parliament is supreme? Then listen to them.

Parliament is supreme i theory and law, but not in practice, and I think that you might agree.

I am not agreeing with your point, but not defending Kayani either.

If Kayani has to stand trial, then PM and President as well, who have absolutely made a mockery out of their oaths.

 

[Last Hope]

Asim.

Meray bhai you must calm down and think neutral. Do not go by the way media portraits incidents. General Kayani has done a respectful duty and a positive job in defending Pakistan, as the title says. His biggest and not-so-promoted success is with the internal enemies, especially in Balouchistan where his forces in association with ISI are trailing the BLA and other terrorists and possible foreign agents.

Please leave aside the hatred that the ignorant and shameless media has spewed in you. You must ask the Defense Analysts and Think Tanks, the soldiers and officers of Pakistan Army on how Kayani has been a positive person...not group of group of new-readers who are anti-Army.

You mentioned about drones...Do you know how drone works? Before every strike they inform 'Pakistan' and 'Pakistan' demands more drone strikes, as they are in areas the army cannot enter. Like Kakgeta mentioned, the area where drones target are FATA where Pakistan Army has no presence.

The 'OBL' raid is a really sensitive matter, which PAF and PA has never dealt with before. This was the first time experiencing such 'operation' and they had little time to act and were in dilemma. Shooting down the Apache was going to be easy, w F-16s were scrambled, but what about the five F-18s airborne on other side of border? What about US Government and military who would have taken further action and place sanctions on Pakistan and make it a hell for us? Today, they are like our masters and we are like slaves in this government. A slave doesn't defy a master or dare go against it.

During the attack on Salala post, the communication was jammed and nothing could be done at the moment. But latter, what do you expect Kayani to do, go to Panetta or Clinton and demand the pilots of the helicopters and the US soldiers, to be prosecuted and executed?

Asim, we are in a master-slave situation with US and anything about it would be impractical. Be Kayani or anyone else, but he has done a good job fighting internal threat and by NOT having a military coup! PPP would act act siasi shaheed and you do not want five more years in the reign of Zardari do you? That was smart thinking, just as he was an inch away from imposing martial law.

 

[alibaz]

It's like if a robber is trying to break in your house but your security has orders to take permission from you weather stop him or let him enter.

Do they take oath to defend country or follow the government orders? What if tomorrow zardari allows US to destroy Pakistan's nuke sites? Why these generals don't take permission from government for coup?

Brother right man for right job, air is to be defended PAF and ACM Rao has said number of times that if government orders them PAF has ability to bring those drones down but non of our representatives had balls to order so. Secondly it seems to be a treacherous end war game where all the players are making calculated moves.
I feel a lot of back door efforts are going on so a single sided decision within ourselves will be a suicide. PA did operation in Sawat and Waziristan with political backing as a result, they not only succeeded but were appreciated by everyone so why to take a decision at their own without consent of government. And last, two or more wrongs cannot make on right.
If you don't like this decision send the government back so that coming government comes with mandate to strike back and it orders it's CAS accordingly.

 

[Awesome]

A thorough study of all drone attacks on Pakistani soil reveal that drone attacks took place in areas that were NOT under the control of the Pak Army, as they were captured by the Army, the drone attacks ceased.

So not being under the control of Army means you will allow foreigners to bomb your civilians? On whose authority did someone decide this? If someone says this, then that means a decision has been taken to allow the drones and if this decision does not include the Parliament then that person is heading for the gallows straight. So I ask you again who came to this conclusion that if an area is lost from Pakistan's sovereignty probably due to the incompetence of someone then that means you are now eligible to get the **** kicked out of you by a foreign military.

Firstly, witness accounts clearly state that there was NO sound of any jets in the vicinity during the OBL Raid.
Secondly, the PAF DOES NOT follow the orders from the Chief of Army Staff. This allegation is false.

Let a trial sort A from B, as it is the lying COAS has no credibility anyway. The Code 663 email paints a very different picture, let the people present it in court and see how it fares in front of a judicial authority.

Arrest the Apache pilots? Or the crew of the AC-130? Is that even diplomatically possible? Because all my study suggests it isn't. Has anyone arrested the crew of the Indian ships that bombed Karachi? Or did they call for an arrest of the men who bombed Dwarka? No country just hands it's soldiers over like that. They enjoy a certain protection under their state.

They came and bombed your country, go and bomb their bases in Afghanistan at least. Or has Kayani now officially also ruled that our lives are expendable and theirs is not? They didn't give a flying rats *** about your soldiers, protocol said to fire upon your soldiers, they fired. Our protocol apparently says defend, except against our mai baap, Amreekans!

If he did that, you would move a motion asking for his trail on grounds of over-stepping authority.

For defending Pakistan? Why? That's his job. We pay him his salary to do that job.

I'd rather not, the opposing argument is there for you to consider.

I understand the merit of the argument - Americans se daro. I'm afraid of them too, but this decision to be afraid of Americans is not Kayanis, its the people's. If that's the case he shouldn't go around spitting dialogues like after each attack "Next time when they attack, we won't leave them...". He should come out and say "I'm not doing it because we will get our ***** kicked". Then we can at least make a decision on whether or not we as a nation care about that and if we decide we don't care then he should follow our order or quit.

 

[King Solomon]

How do you classify him as a "criminal"? If anyone should be persecuted, it should be the govt. for eg, not giving order to shoot the drones.