Treatys of Lausanne and 2023

[xenon54 out]

Ah not this again...

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

We have kept Turkey physically intact but killed her from inside. She will never regain her former glory - Lord Carzon, the Chief negotiator at the Allied side, after the signing of the Treaty of Loussane

 

[Yatağanlı]

We have kept Turkey physically intact but killed her from inside. She will never regain her former glory - Lord Carzon, the Chief negotiator at the Allied side, after the signing of the Treaty of Loussane

Sevres was death. Lausanne the best we could do. We have Istanbul+ whole of Anatolia. Much more than we had originally lost after ww1

 

[Pax Ottomana]

It's high time for the Ummah to form an Islamic Economic Union modeled (in part) after the EU, joint currency to challenge the petro-dolar and a Shengen-like visa free travel zone for its members.

 

[SouI]

It's high time for the Ummah to form an Islamic Economic Union modeled (in part) after the EU, joint currency to challenge the petro-dolar and a Shengen-like visa free travel zone for its members.

Are you serious? You cannot possibly be..

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Are you serious? You cannot possibly be..

When there's a will, there's a way. Those who told you this cannot be done are the very same powers who want to keep enslaving the Muslim World for its resources.

 

[SouI]

When there's a will, there's a way. Those who told you this cannot be done are the very same powers who want to keep enslaving the Muslim World for its resources.

There are so many logical flaws in that piece of text of yours that I dont even know where to start..

First of all let me ask you this, but please be honest, how old are you?

 

[what]

I'm sorry for my 5 years younger me, wish I could delete this.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

There are so many logical flaws in that piece of text of yours that I dont even know where to start..

First of all let me ask you this, but please be honest, how old are you?

You're starting this off the wrong way by attempting to attack the person instead of countering the argument; setting yourself up for an ad hominem, a common fallacy among unexperienced debaters. My age is none of your business and I'm entitled to my opinions. If you don't agree with them, that's all fine and dandy, I can agree to disagree, but don't tell me that my argument is illogical when what we're discussing isn't a question of logical deduction but rather a possible consequence of real politik. In logics arguments I can probably run circles around you.

No one would even dream about a European Union in 1941 when the Germans were hoisting Nazi flags in Paris. No one thought Japan would become the linchpin of US Pacific policy when Kannushi-blessed, sake-drenched Kamikazes were diving down on USS Nevada in Pearl Harbor, or when Anola Gay dropped the Little Boy on Nagasaki. Yeah, history is quite funny like that.

At the end of the day Geopolitics and real politik dictate the outcome and no one, and I mean no one, can predict how things will be a couple decades down the road.

 

[Mr.Department]

At the end of the day

Am Ende des Tages, typical German.

But your argues are almost perfect.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Am Ende des Tages, typical German.

But your argues are almost perfect.

So sagt der Osterreicher...

Danke. Ich denke dass ich bin ein globaler burger, mit ein bischen Turkisher bevorzugung.

 

[SouI]

You're starting this off the wrong way by attempting to attack the person instead of countering the argument; setting yourself up for an ad hominem, a common fallacy among unexperienced debaters. My age is none of your business and I'm entitled to my opinions. If you don't agree with them, that's all fine and dandy, I can agree to disagree, but don't tell me that my argument is illogical when what we're discussing isn't a question of logical deduction but rather a possible consequence of real politik. In logics arguments I can probably run circles around you.

No one would even dream about a European Union in 1941 when the Germans were hoisting Nazi flags in Paris. No one thought Japan would become the linchpin of US Pacific policy when Kannushi-blessed, sake-drenched Kamikazes were diving down on USS Nevada in Pearl Harbor, or when Anola Gay dropped the Little Boy on Nagasaki. Yeah, history is quite funny like that.

At the end of the day Geopolitics and real politik dictate the outcome and no one, and I mean no one, can predict how things will be a couple decades down the road.

Well I was more on macroeconomic side with such a union if it were to happen now.. It would totally destroy our country's economy overnight.

But of course if we are talking about a union after like 50 years from now on, then even Id be for creating a middle east union with countries around and there are posts of mine in this forum about such a union and in detail.

So fundamentally speaking I am profoundly not against such an idea.

 

[BordoEnes]

I'm sorry for my 5 years younger me, wish I could delete this.

Yeah reading back some of my own past comments is really embarrassing. A lot can happen in 6 years you know, no need to judge.

 

[Kiryu]

I don't think an Islamic economic Union is realistic. Most of those African countries would drain resources more than contribute. Gaddafi pushed for an African Union and even when bankrolled by Libya couldn't work with all the corruption, personal interests of the rulers and outside interference preventing it from going anywhere.
Egypt is a lost cause for probably another decade. So long as they are useful, don't cause Israel any problems and participate in imprisoning Gazans the military dictatorship will be supported and criticisms muted enough to not cause too much damage. Egypt executes opponents, low volume criticisms, China has an awful human rights record and one of the most intrusive police states the world has ever seen, muted criticisms, yet Turkey arrests some terrorists and all hell breaks lose and you would be forgiven for thinking Turkey is much worse than those countries. I'm not defending Erdogan at all here, he deserves criticism as much as anyone else but compared to other countries Turkey gets unfair abuse from her "friends" in the West.
Turkey should work with countries willing to work. The partnerships in Somalia look promising, Sudan is vitally important and Turkey should work just as closely with them. The largest population centres outside of Egypt is in the Maghreb, which incidentally have a large Turkish/Ottoman descendant population. Economic, cultural and military cooperation with those countries should take up Turkeys priorities. I would also include Mauritania too, the Sahel is becoming more strategically important and a area of interest for many world powers, Mauritania is muslim, relatively small population, very underdeveloped with plenty of potential and in need of friends. Turkey has shown when mutually respected can be a good friend. Mauritania is also large and can be accessed by sea as well as across land.

Central Asia has been a long focus for Turkey too but the usual problems there limit any substantial economic development. Local politics is still strongly moscow centric, bilateral trade usually relies on energy which goes one way. There aren't large markets for Turkish businesses to sell consumer goods too. With the exception perhaps of Uzbekistan, but they have been closed to Turkey for some time now. Hopefully that will change and the Uzbek president is visiting Turkey tomorrow.
Indonesia is an important economic partner and Turkey is already improving relationships there without the need of an IEU.
Also and IEU would be really limiting too. In Asia our most important partners would be Korea and Japan as well. Being essentially "tied" could hamper efforts with other countries that are not islamic.
Also the economic development rate is too divergent for it to be realistic. Remember the EU began much smaller with realtively similar countries. They only expanded slowly and originally just into the west of Europe. If the EU began the size it is now it would of failed. They were able to absorb economically weaker countries and raise them closer to an European average. Something and IEU can't do.
I don't mean to be disparaging when I say this either, but most muslim countries are politically weak. Their leaders are weak, their institutions are weak and you need strong political will for a union to work. Any attempt at such a union would be eaten alive.
So Turkey should work with countries who want to work with her. Muslim or not, be open to all countries in the world, not just western approved seal but with a Turkish approved seal, and if a country wants to improve and expand ties with Turkey, jump all in, and if they don't, fine maybe some other time. Turkey should not limit herself with fanciful unions that wont ever go anywhere and would hurt her in the long term.

 

[Cookie Monster]

We have kept Turkey physically intact but killed her from inside. She will never regain her former glory - Lord Carzon, the Chief negotiator at the Allied side, after the signing of the Treaty of Loussane

I think Turkey should stay its course. The world and the geostratgeic circumstances have changed. It is a multipolar world and Turkey can easily take advantage of that.

- Greece, the only "enemy"(in a sense) of Turkey, is in shambles.
- Turkey is part of NATO and considered aligned with the Western European nations(despite the whole EU membership situation).
- Turkey's relations with Russia have improved despite the relatively recent downing of a Russian jet.
- Neither Arab countries nor Iran see Turkey as their enemy...in fact both would like to see Turkey siding with them.

Turkey can tread carefully and keep all parties happy.
- Try and become a member of EU if possible...if not then keep EU members engaged in the Turkish bid for a membership...that would keep them on ur side
- Increase trade with russia and avoid any conflict that may harm relations
- Carefully avoid getting tangled between the Arab/Iranian rivalry
- And last but not least, avoid confrontation with Greece...for now

This would give Turkey a chance to further the progress it's already making...economically and in its defence sector. This peaceful existence and progress would go a long way in increasing Turkey's influence and might. In fact Turkey should start improving its relations with China as well. This approach would enable Turkey to be able to "speak softly and carry a big stick". Right now is the perfect time for Turkey to work towards its "big stick" instead of getting bogged down in some petty conflicts.