Tracking jf-17 information post Zuhai air show

[Mani2020]

11/28/2010

The poster on Pakdef known as Eagle Hannan is a Pakistani engineer who works in Nanjing, China. He speaks both Urdu and Chinese fluently. He is a serious military aviation enthusiast. The city he comes from in China, Nanjing, is also the home of two of the J-10 pilots from the PLAAF that participated in the Zhuhai Air Show, 2010. He stayed at the same hotel as the PAF pilots and had many conversations with them as well as the PLAAF pilots. . Hannan attended all three public holidays and spent all three days with pilots and senior officers. Hannan has managed to collect a large amount of information and media and these have been cleared by senior personnel from the PAF for public release.

What follows is a summary of Eagle Hannan's posts from Pakdef.

Hannan describes the aerobatics display of the JF-17 as brilliant. The JF-17 flew twice every day of the air show. He notes that the weather conditions were very bad and hard to take videos in. He said that the J-10s did not perform particularly well. Hannan comments that in 14 minutes of display there was a single performance of 360 and three half-hearted loops. He observes that the rest of the displays by the J-10 were formation flights. He notes that one of the Sherdil pilots comments about the J-10 pilots in Punjabi that the old men of China cannot fly their own planes.

In comparison, the JF-17s did much better. Hannan describes the Chinese crowd as going “wild” with the Thunder’s repeated tight turns, without a single one off-target from the venue.

In his conversations with the PAF, he has found out the following:

1. JF-17s will not have CFTs (Conformal Fuel Tanks).

2. The present batch of JF-17s has certain non-Chinese subsystems.

3. Air to Air missile tests for both WVR and BVR are complete.

4. PAF is impressed with the performance of SD-10s and confirms that the missile is comparable to the AMRAAM-Cs.

5. An improved SD-10s, designated here as SD-10Bs with improved range, seeker, new motor and better seeker has been tested in China on the FC-1. These missiles are marginally lighter than the first generation and are in the same standard as the best Western BVR AAMs.

The weight of the SD-10Bs still remains slightly greater than the AMRAAM Cs but this is not an issue anymore because the performance is equal or superior. The missiles displayed in Zhuhai were not the new generation SD-10Bs but the earlier model.

PAF order for the SD-10Bs will be fulfilled before PLAAF. Previous models will be upgraded to the new SD-10B standard. [Author’s note: this may suggest that PAF have provided critical input for the SD-10Bs]

6. PAF will standardize to this SD-10Bs. First 50 will have PL-9Cs as standard WVR missiles.

7. A new radar will possibly be used in the Block II JF-17s and the first block will be upgraded. These are likely to be AESA radars with a swash-plate, similar to the Gripen NG.

8. JF-17 radars are designed to be fully multirole.

9. Various new guided munitions are being tested in China. These include SDBs (Small Diameter Bombs) ideal for the light fighter class.

10. PAF’s second squadron of JF-17s is almost ready and flight trials are earmarked for early next year.

11. China is confirmed (yet again and without any doubt whatsoever) to buy the FC-1s. Consequently, production is being expanded in Pakistan’s production facilities, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), to meet the demand. These facilities are located in Kamra.

12. Close cooperation on the J-10B is taking place. The level of cooperation has been significantly expanded since 2009. The size of the cooperation is described as literally a small city-like facility to accommodate PAF and Pakistani civilian engineers. Hannan confirmed that civilian engineers from PAC are also part of the cooperation in China.

13. The J-10B will have Chinese radar and western subsystems will allow it to be integrated with Erieye and Chinese AWACS. This is not an assumption and Eagle Hannan, who is a telecom engineer himself, confirms that this is not a technical problem and reconfirms from PAF. There is no problem as long as the protocol messages and handshake procedures are known. He found out that PAF has a solution in terms of the middleware.

14. The middleware will not only be via a C4I but also direct communication middleware. Some of these are being developed in-house and some are being imported.

15. Whether JF-17s can data link with Erieye has not been confirmed due to diplomatic/political reasons. However, Hannan notes that from his discussions, it is implicitly obvious that they definitely can.


16. IFR (In-Flight Refueling) will be installed in later batches. These will be fixed IFRs and not retractable. [Author’s note: radar signature and aerodynamics penalty paid for simplicity of construction, cost and maintenance]. The JF-17s were designed from the ground-up to have IFRs installed.

17. Next block of JF-17s will have IRST (Infra-Red Search & Track) similar to those installed on the J-10B.

18. Pakistani ALCM Raad and H2/H4 ASM will be integrated and was a major reason why Pakistan has chosen to go with Chinese radars for Block 2 JF-17s.

19. Advanced composites have been tested for use on the Block 2 JF-17s. Present JF-17s also use some composites. J-10B/FC-20 is designed from inception from new advanced composites. FC-20s in PAF service will form the top tier in the PAF (above the F-16 Block 52+).

20. PAF denied any collaboration in Chinese 5th generation fighter program as this is a capability they are not familiar with. PAF senior officials stated that:


We cannot help develop a capability we don’t know. Like we don’t know what kind of sensor suite is in F-22 other than what we find from open-source. Such capability/requirement generation is not Air Force job but such technology information is brought in by other means [Hannan notes: espionage or intelligence I think this is what he meant]. We all know F-22 is stealth but what else it can do is what we don’t know. JF-17s are developed because we knew what we wanted from a 4th generation fighter as we already had an experience with capability, either by existing systems or by our collaboration with other air forces. Even US Air force only comes to know new capabilities when it’s presented to it. Chinese on the other hand, have the means to bring such information and develop on such information and PAF does not. We'll see what they bring up.

Source : Eagle Hannan's Goldmine From Zhuhai - Grande Strategy

 

[Mani2020]

Munir's analysis


Following is an aggregation and summary of Brother Munir's posts in Pakdef. This is part of a series on the JF-17.

Small Pipes in RD-93 Exhaust
These are possibly upgrades to make the engines less smoky. The RD-93 has very fast reaction times. The fuel-pump and gearbox has to keep pace. The fuel pump’s rpm needs to be reduced. Otherwise, more fuel goes into the combustion area than the engine can handle, causing a lack of full combustion and thus the dark smoke. Instead, one possible solution is to dump the fuel through these pipes. The top location of these pipes may be related to the RD-93s gearbox being on top as well.

An added benefit is that, with a few changes, these can be used as a smoke-system using colored diesel or as a flame torch similar to the F-111. They can also be used to dump fuel in case of an emergency.

Munir confirmed by discussing the issue with a technically qualified friend.

JF-17 Aerodynamics
Vortices
Munir states that the highly visible vortices in Zhuhai [due to the extreme humidity] provide valuable information to the technically inclined observer. He analyzes that the vortices are leaving the body just before the tail because the elevators pushed the flow upwards. He notes the lower elevator responses compared to the F-16 for high G turns and implies that the LERX and the vortices play a role in explaining this.

Flaperons vs Ailerons & Flaps
Munir compares the use of flaperons in the F-16 with the use of separate flaps and ailerons in the JF-17.
Author’s note: Flaperons are single piece and combine the functionality of ailerons and flaps.

From analyzing JF-17 maneuvers, Munir notes that the JF-17 rolls fast because the ailerons are relatively far away from the center. Therefore, they need less force to achieve the same roll rate. He believes this contributes to lower RCS and energy consumption in maneuver. Munir suggests that it would be better to use a combination of elevators with the ailerons. He believes that with full FBW (Fly By Wire) the JF-17 will switch to this configuration.

Munir explains that he was not initially happy with the conventional arrangement of separate flaps and ailerons, but now, after viewing the maneuverability of the plane, believes this was a good idea. He thinks that the only negative aspect is that there is one less wing pylon on each wing. However, this may not be needed given modern net-centric warfare, 2-4 BVR AAMs can be considered enough.

Airbrakes
Munir recalls that the difference in the air brakes of the JF-17 and the F-16 has been an issue he has pondered over. He confirms that the original drawings for the JF-17s were similar to the F-16s. He believes that a disadvantage is the distance of the air brakes to the center. Another disadvantage is the higher RCS. Another issue is that the air brake location on the wings negatively impacts life. He notes that the F-16s bigger engines and the JF-17s smaller engines may result in different solutions. Munir concludes that the JF-17 solution is a good redesign

Delta vs. Conventional – Roll Rates

Munir notes that a delta cannot role faster than an equivalent conventional design without large increases in drag which in turn causes loss of kinetic energy. The large wing areas resist movement. He points that the legacy F-5 is still one of the fastest rolling fighter aircraft. He also notes that making comparisons from an air show are of dubious value, given that the JF-17 may not be performing maximum limit roll rates.

 

[Mani2020]

Continued

Multiple Rack Launchers
Munir suggests that multiple racks for dual BVRs would be an important improvement on the JF-17, giving it 4 BVRs, 2 WVRs and a gun (as well as 3 drop tanks). He suggests that for the air-to-ground role, 3-4 munitions per rack for smaller 50-100 kg smart LGBs would provide the perfect weapons load. Munir believes that with multiple racks, JF-17s can fulfill the vast majority of mission requirements.


Next Generation WVR AAMs
Munir believes the Chinese PL-10 with HMS will be comparable to the AIM-9X. The later combines the qualities of being small, having low RCS and being extremely agile. He believes this AAM strategy is superior to that of the German IRIS-T.

He also rebuts claims that the JF-17 and Erieye cannot data link
Munir’s Accurate Information on the SD-10B

With the recent confirmation of the SD-10B, Munir is acknowledged to have stated this in October 2009 when he posted that not only does the SD-10B exist, but also that it is already operational and has 18 km more range than the earlier model.

He adds that he is not happy with the fixed external IFR although in re-evaluation, he finds that this solution is simple and effective.

IRST & AESA Radar

Munir notes that the IRST on the JF-17 will allow stealth related tactics in air combat using data links with AWACS and / or ground radars. Munir paints the scenario of a JF-17 with IRST travelling low, fast and in such a stealth mode can surprise the opponent. He also notes that the IRST, while increasingly popular in Europe, is in fact better suited to the environment in Pakistan; because the weather in Pakistan is a lot less foggy and cloudy, allowing optimal IRST usage.

Munir explains that the mechanical AESA will be similar to the Gripen NG’s AESA solution. He considers this to be more effective than static AESAs. Munir considers this issue as an advantage not only for the JF-17, but also for the ZDK-03 and believes that the latter is better than the Erieye.

He believes that the reason behind using Chinese radars is also to keep information about key weapons like the Ra’ad LACM and H-2 and H-4 ASMs from western weapons suppliers. He adds that Pakistan’s operation of the F-16 Block 52s will help China build a better J-10B because PAF engineers and pilots now know what to aim for with certain subsystems.

Composites & Engines
Munir notes that composites will lower weight but also increase costs in acquisition and maintenance and increase complexity of manufacture. He believes that this makes marketing the JF-17 more flexible, with all aluminum models for lower end models and composite construction for higher end customers.

Munir believes that Pakistan may be able to acquire higher thrust engines for its Block 2 JF-17s. He points to the Russian RD-33 MK being marketed in Zhuhai. Munir indicates that a TVC equipped JF-17 can reduce drag in ACM, lower RCS due to less pronounced movement of control surfaces, shorten takeoffs and landings and do amazing aerobatics.

Source: Munir's Analysis - Grande Strategy

 

[WAQAS119]

IRST & AESA Radar

Munir notes that the IRST on the JF-17 will allow stealth related tactics in air combat using data links with AWACS and / or ground radars. Munir paints the scenario of a JF-17 with IRST travelling low, fast and in such a stealth mode can surprise the opponent. He also notes that the IRST, while increasingly popular in Europe, is in fact better suited to the environment in Pakistan; because the weather in Pakistan is a lot less foggy and cloudy, allowing optimal IRST usage.

According to Munir Sb:

>>>The best known users of modern IRST systems are the Russian Su-27 Flanker , China Pakistan JF-17 Thunder, Mikoyan MiG-35 and American F-14 Tomcat. These aircraft carry the IRST systems for use in lieu of their radars when the situation warrants it, such as when shadowing other aircraft or under the control of Airborne Early Warning and Control(AWACS) aircraft or Ground-controlled interception(GCI), where an external radar is being used to help vector them onto a target and the IRST is used to pick up and track the target once they are in range. With infra-red homing or fire-and-forget missiles, the aircraft may be able to fire upon the targets without having to turn their radar sets on at all. Otherwise, they can turn the radar on and achieve a lock immediately before firing if desired. They could also close to within cannon range and engage that way. Whether or not they use their radar, the IRST system can still allow them to launch a surprise attack.
>>>An IRST system may also have a regular magnified optical sight slaved to it, to help the IRST-equipped aircraft identify the target at long range. As opposed to an ordinary forward looking infrared system, an IRST system will actually scan the space around the aircraft similarly to the way in which mechanically (or even electronically) steered radars work. When they find one or more potential targets they will alert the pilot(s) and display the location of each target relative to the aircraft on a screen, much like a radar. Again similarly to the way a radar works, the operator can tell the IRST to track a particular target of interest, once it has been identified, or scan in a particular direction if a target is believed to be there (for example, because of an advisory from AWACS or another aircraft).
>>>Note that, like infra-red homing seekers, an IRST is more likely to detect a target with its engine exhaust pointed towards the detector than away from it. This means that many jet aircraft will be detected at longer ranges if they are flying away from the IRST-equipped aircraft rather than towards it. However, most IRST systems are sensitive enough to detect the heat of a jet from head-on as well, either infra-red energy generated from the hot air coming out of the engines, from air friction heating the airframe, or both.
IRST systems can incorporate laser rangefinders in order to provide full fire-control solutions for cannon fire or launching missiles. The combination of an atmospheric propagation model, the apparent surface of the target, and target motion analysis (TMA) IRST can calculate the range.


In real world it means that your radar gives your position away... You need awacs, links etc to stay alert. And if you radar is countered (ECM/ECCM etc) you are pretty much dead cause you have no SA and ability to shoot (BVR/WVR/Canon) unless you have IRST that is linked with your LD and you can use INS (plane/BVR/WVR) to get the job done. This is at the moment the best solution for a 4g fighterjet to fight against 5g opponent. I predict we sill see IRST pointed upwards... That is the whole trick of using 5g plane. Fly high and stay out of danger... Use satlink... Move in for a coordinated kill... Bug out (high altitude) before getting near radars... So the fight will be vertical. With IRST covering top you will have more time to react.

 

[TechLahore]

Wow, this is a goldmine of info. Very interested in seeing how the JF-17 develops. Multi AAM racks, AESA, composites and SD-10Bs are especially interesting. It's so exciting to watch this fighter develop... it's impossible to do all of this with a "purchased" aircraft, but with the JF-17, literally the sky is the limit.

Also, good news on the J-10B. There's thousands of posts about it, but details remain sketchy. Anxious to see how this turns out.

 

[Last Hope]

Why wont it have CFTs??
Difficulty in maneover??

 

[somebozo]

very valuable post brother

 

[Materialistic]

It was really a nice read!!

 

[Areesh]

Awesome awesome read. Thanks Mani2020 for sharing this great info. A very useful read indeed.

 

[BATMAN]

Nice read about JFT but why is PAF still going for FC-20?

FC-20 have large delta wings, its air intakes and frontal shape still need improvement. it shall not be considered until both are improved.
When both items will be redesigned than it shall be re-evaluated.

 

[Pak1Samurai]

very nice......

 

[Dazzler]

Nice read about JFT but why is PAF still going for FC-20?

FC-20 have large delta wings, its air intakes and frontal shape still need improvement. it shall not be considered until both are improved.
When both items will be redesigned than it shall be re-evaluated.

J-10b a.k.a FC-20 was specifically made on PAF's request and houses what we wanted to both internally and externally. There is no point of whether we consider or not when it was made for us. Improvements is an on going process and it is being tested with NRIET AESA as of now thus no pics or news

 

[BATMAN]

J-10b a.k.a FC-20 was specifically made on PAF's request and houses what we wanted to both internally and externally. There is no point of whether we consider or not when it was made for us. Improvements is an on going process and it is being tested with NRIET AESA as of now thus no pics or news

OK FC-20 is being made on PAF specs. but since JFT will have AESA and BVR and now we know JFT is more agile than other a/c on the show!
Than what justify induction of FC-20 over JFT?

If PAF have an application for high altitude operations than i would still favor more to negotiate used mirage 2000 from UAE.

Personally, i'm not impressed by J-10B.
As i said, IMO, it needs redesign of nose cone and air intake.

 

[Manticore]

OK FC-20 is being made on PAF specs. but since JFT will have AESA and BVR and now we know JFT is more agile than other a/c on the show!
Than what justify induction of FC-20 over JFT?

If PAF have an application for high altitude operations than i would still favor more to negotiate used mirage 2000 from UAE.

Personally, i'm not impressed by J-10B.
As i said, IMO, it needs redesign of nose cone and air intake.

j10b production wont stop in the next decade
integrating the latest chinese tech , which china will also induct
setting blk52+ as benchmark
chances of upgradation
reliability-- maybe even tot
countering su30 , in indian airspace
lesser responsibility on f16s
greater payload , range , thrust , hardpoints , stronger radar

it will give paf greater offensive punch

 

[Kompromat]

All of my hopes are being fulfilled in the Block 2 except the fixed IFR. Thats a bad choice !