Towards a new & Improved Fauj

[niaz]

I thank Hon Muse for starting this thread. There is little doubt that paradigm shift is needed in our security thinking.

Anyone not blinded by the poison of bigotry will realize that India is leaving Pakistan far behind in everything; be it education, health, law and order, economy or general standard of living. Pakistan has lower literacy rate than Bangla Desh and Sri Lanka.

I for one do not believe that Quaid e Azam and other leaders of Muslim League fought for independence to turn Pakistan into a dark age Islamic Khilafat or Emirate. Quaid and our founding fathers wanted a progressive and modern Pakistan. To achieve this end our top priority should be education (not fake degrees), health and improvement of standard of living of the ordinary Pakistanis. For this we need to give economic improvement our top most priority.

To fund this gigantic effort we need:

A. To raise the income. This can only be done thru taxation of everyone including the land mafia and agriculture.

B. To cut national expenditure this includes cutting the size of the armed forces even if it results in lowering nuclear threshold.

We need a mean and lean Army, Navy and Airforce. Stress should be on quality of hardware, quality of training and quality of leadership. This can only be done if armed threat from our Eastern border is minimized. This means we defuse Kashmir situation.

This most important objective will never be achieved unless it is realized by everyone that we cannot snatch IOK from the jaws of India thru military force. This realization needs to be hammered into the bigoted minds of all the Jihadi and khilafat followers. Equally important, the fact that we cannot win Kashmir by force of arms does not mean that we give up on Kashmir. Kashmir ultimately belongs neither to Pakistan nor to India but to the Kashmiris. Therefore we need to think outside the box and try to achieve what Kashmiris want. This can only be resolved thru a tripartite agreement as suggested by Hon Muse even if it means progress at snail’s pace. Nothing has been done for the last 60 years, what difference would another ten or twenty years make?

Need of the times is to setup 'Think Tanks' free of political and military interference. Their task should be to come up with ideas and devise ways to double our national income every ten years. That is, to achieve a growth rate of about 8% every year for the next generation.

Any economy that grows continuously at about 8% each year will need very large number of skilled manpower and high quality education. This could even require a reverse brain drain that is already happening in India now. There is no other way can we provide jobs and housing for the burgeoning population.

However none of this can be achieved unless we totally rid ourselves of the jihadi and Taliban cancer. We have had thousands of Madrasahs for the last twenty years, look what they have produced? Suicide bombers! Imagine if the same schools instead imparted technical skills, how much more useful their graduates could have been to the society?

I am however not hopeful. Taliban and their direct or indirect supporters and sympathizers will not go away. Resulting law and order situation will ensure that Pakistan continues as she has done for the last 5 years. Our Armed forces will continue to eat up 50% of the resources at the expense of education, health and infra-structure and most of the populace will continue dreaming and living on the supposedly glorious past that Muslims enjoyed until the 17th century and to hell with the future.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I thank Hon Muse for starting this thread. There is little doubt that paradigm shift is needed in our security thinking.

Anyone not blinded by the poison of bigotry will realize that India is leaving Pakistan far behind in everything; be it education, health, law and order, economy or general standard of living. Pakistan has lower literacy rate than Bangla Desh and Sri Lanka.

I for one do not believe that Quaid e Azam and other leaders of Muslim League fought for independence to turn Pakistan into a dark age Islamic Khilafat or Emirate. Quaid and our founding fathers wanted a progressive and modern Pakistan. To achieve this end our top priority should be education (not fake degrees), health and improvement of standard of living of the ordinary Pakistanis. For this we need to give economic improvement our top most priority.

To fund this gigantic effort we need:

A. To raise the income. This can only be done thru taxation of everyone including the land mafia and agriculture.

B. To cut national expenditure this includes cutting the size of the armed forces even if it results in lowering nuclear threshold.

We need a mean and lean Army, Navy and Airforce. Stress should be on quality of hardware, quality of training and quality of leadership. This can only be done if armed threat from our Eastern border is minimized. This means we defuse Kashmir situation.

This most important objective will never be achieved unless it is realized by everyone that we cannot snatch IOK from the jaws of India thru military force. This realization needs to be hammered into the bigoted minds of all the Jihadi and khilafat followers. Equally important, the fact that we cannot win Kashmir by force of arms does not mean that we give up on Kashmir. Kashmir ultimately belongs neither to Pakistan nor to India but to the Kashmiris. Therefore we need to think outside the box and try to achieve what Kashmiris want. This can only be resolved thru a tripartite agreement as suggested by Hon Muse even if it means progress at snail’s pace. Nothing has been done for the last 60 years, what difference would another ten or twenty years make?

Need of the times is to setup 'Think Tanks' free of political and military interference. Their task should be to come up with ideas and devise ways to double our national income every ten years. That is, to achieve a growth rate of about 8% every year for the next generation.

Any economy that grows continuously at about 8% each year will need very large number of skilled manpower and high quality education. This could even require a reverse brain drain that is already happening in India now. There is no other way can we provide jobs and housing for the burgeoning population.

However none of this can be achieved unless we totally rid ourselves of the jihadi and Taliban cancer. We have had thousands of Madrasahs for the last twenty years, look what they have produced? Suicide bombers! Imagine if the same schools instead imparted technical skills, how much more useful their graduates could have been to the society?

I am however not hopeful. Taliban and their direct or indirect supporters and sympathizers will not go away. Resulting law and order situation will ensure that Pakistan continues as she has done for the last 5 years. Our Armed forces will continue to eat up 50% of the resources at the expense of education, health and infra-structure and most of the populace will continue dreaming and living on the supposedly glorious past that Muslims enjoyed until the 17th century and to hell with the future.

Niaz Sahab,
You have put forth some very valid, pertinent and implementable measure that can take Pakistan and her citizens towards their true destiny.
And I sincerely wish that will happen.
Sir, I'll confine my statement to that.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This thread is completely stunning.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes, Yes Yes Yes, but no matter what Pakistan does not have 443,000,000 million starving people like India living below the poverty line. Producing 100,000 or 150,000 IT engineers out if 1.2 billion is a very small fraction and will not make India a super power, never.

You don't seem to get it, do you? This thread isn't one for you; it isn't the kind to encourage you to jump up and down and make patriotic noises. It is a hard-nosed, clinical effort by very intelligent people to look at Pakistan's defence requirements without the emotional blinkers of the past two generations. It is a stunning departure from the beaten track, and I am chagrined that a set of Pakistani thinkers began considering such a new paradigm first. All intelligent people will be watching this with astonishment and very keen attention.

In the middle of this outstanding effort, one which I hope we Indians can emulate in our turn for ourselves, your intrusion is jarring. It is grossly out of place. The question is not of whether India will be a super-power or not; the question is, given than India's defence priorities have shifted so clearly, and that she has visibly reduced and continues to reduce her focus on defence against Pakistan, what is an effective and appropriate stand for Pakistan?

Obviously this is not a thread which encourages shrill jingoism, or the kind of obsession with shiny, expensive, new toys that has absorbed the attention of lightly-endowed intellects on both sides of the border. You will not enjoy yourself here.

There are many other threads; why don't you go and spread sweetness and light somewhere else?

 

[muse]

2 pages of "Tu Tu main main" -- I would encourage readers to review our distinguished member Niaz Saheeb's post -- Why is a Paradigm shift necessitated?? Please think about what the author of the lead article has to say about the very nature of war in our times

See while most readers will see this as it relates primarily to the Fauj, allow me to say that all of this applies to the counterparts of the Fauj across the border.

This thread is also interesting not just because who have chosen to avail us of their thinking, but also because of those who have not..

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

2 pages of "Tu Tu main main" -- I would encourage readers to review our distinguished member Niaz Saheeb's post -- Why is a Paradigm shift necessitated?? Please think about what the author of the lead article has to say about the very nature of war in our times

See while most readers will see this as it relates primarily to the Fauj, allow me to say that all of this applies to the counterparts of the Fauj across the border.

This thread is also interesting not just because who have chosen to avail us of their thinking, but also because of those who have not..

Heres where I disagree with you... Niaz Saheeb has given us nothing new except more taxation... in his own words taxation of everyone (how about the poor, old, disabled, blind, widowed, unemployed, children... does he want to tax them too?) and to cut the Army? That must be a joke right? Why do you want to cut the Army's budget when our historical and core enemy India is increasing defence budget?

I would have bothered with reading Hon Niaz Saheeb's full post but to be honest with an attitude where he associated the dark ages with the Islamic Khilafat, not only is he talking nonsense and has no idea about history but with a lot of respect to him, he will be considered an enemy by the majority in Pakistan who actually desire the Caliphate...

There can be no discussion with such a hostile attitude towards Islam... The secularists have to get down from their imaginary moral high ground... We are willing to work with everyone but intolerance shall not be tolerated anymore...

Even die hard opponents of Islam understand what we mean by the Caliphate... Do yourself a favor and read up a little more about Islam and Khilafat...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...wlett-packard-comments-islamic-caliphate.html

 

[SQ8]

Ghulail bana ke chirya marey..

 

[IND151]

I thank Hon Muse for starting this thread. There is little doubt that paradigm shift is needed in our security thinking.

Anyone not blinded by the poison of bigotry will realize that India is leaving Pakistan far behind in everything; be it education, health, law and order, economy or general standard of living. Pakistan has lower literacy rate than Bangla Desh and Sri Lanka.

I for one do not believe that Quaid e Azam and other leaders of Muslim League fought for independence to turn Pakistan into a dark age Islamic Khilafat or Emirate. Quaid and our founding fathers wanted a progressive and modern Pakistan. To achieve this end our top priority should be education (not fake degrees), health and improvement of standard of living of the ordinary Pakistanis. For this we need to give economic improvement our top most priority.

To fund this gigantic effort we need:

A. To raise the income. This can only be done thru taxation of everyone including the land mafia and agriculture.

B. To cut national expenditure this includes cutting the size of the armed forces even if it results in lowering nuclear threshold.

We need a mean and lean Army, Navy and Airforce. Stress should be on quality of hardware, quality of training and quality of leadership. This can only be done if armed threat from our Eastern border is minimized. This means we defuse Kashmir situation.

This most important objective will never be achieved unless it is realized by everyone that we cannot snatch IOK from the jaws of India thru military force. This realization needs to be hammered into the bigoted minds of all the Jihadi and khilafat followers. Equally important, the fact that we cannot win Kashmir by force of arms does not mean that we give up on Kashmir. Kashmir ultimately belongs neither to Pakistan nor to India but to the Kashmiris. Therefore we need to think outside the box and try to achieve what Kashmiris want. This can only be resolved thru a tripartite agreement as suggested by Hon Muse even if it means progress at snail’s pace. Nothing has been done for the last 60 years, what difference would another ten or twenty years make?

Need of the times is to setup 'Think Tanks' free of political and military interference. Their task should be to come up with ideas and devise ways to double our national income every ten years. That is, to achieve a growth rate of about 8% every year for the next generation.

Any economy that grows continuously at about 8% each year will need very large number of skilled manpower and high quality education. This could even require a reverse brain drain that is already happening in India now. There is no other way can we provide jobs and housing for the burgeoning population.

However none of this can be achieved unless we totally rid ourselves of the jihadi and Taliban cancer. We have had thousands of Madrasahs for the last twenty years, look what they have produced? Suicide bombers! Imagine if the same schools instead imparted technical skills, how much more useful their graduates could have been to the society?

I am however not hopeful. Taliban and their direct or indirect supporters and sympathizers will not go away. Resulting law and order situation will ensure that Pakistan continues as she has done for the last 5 years. Our Armed forces will continue to eat up 50% of the resources at the expense of education, health and infra-structure and most of the populace will continue dreaming and living on the supposedly glorious past that Muslims enjoyed until the 17th century and to hell with the future.

very great post. however to achieve this army's grip on Pakistan's politics must be weakened. this is what most critical, but if accomplished, will do the trick.

 

[Rafi]

I thoroughly disagree with this thesis, we need to maintain the Armed Forces at the current level's because IMHO we still face an existential threat from the indian state and the indian deep state. Lowering our guard would be foolish, we need to further liberalize our economy - growth will allow us to maintain our defense budget and allow us to spend on the social sectors.

My suggestion would be to privatize the loss making state industries. The price of freedom is high, I have seen many people make the ultimate sacrifice - those who have never seen it would never know.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

There is no doubt in my mind that at least the second rung of that organisational chart has been drawn by an ignorant, ignorant, ignorant keyboard wannabe. I so strongly object to the words ameer-ul-jihad that I would strangle that person with my bare hands if it weren't 7araam to do so. Who the f will use the term jihaad for war and claim to have even slight knowledge of Islaam? ven Osaamah bin Laadin does not use this word in his speach (I'll admit I've only heard one), since he is Arab and knows the proper word in this place is 7H A R B or at a more sort of micro level, Q I T A A L.

You have a problem with the word "Jihad"? or "Ameer Ul Jihad"?

The Army's sole purpose in Khilafah is defence and offence when needed and they are both called Jihad in Islam... the leader of the Armed forces is the Ameer of Jihad... whats the big deal if you call it Ameer ul Jihad or Ameer ul Harb... at the end of the day both have to do with military and war.. The difference is that jihad is for the sake of Islam and war can be the war on terror...

Do you also have problem with the Pakistani Army's "Iman Taqwa Jihad" ???

 

[Rafi]

The Khalifa is not a valid solution - the nation states are not going anywhere, and the Pakistan Armed Forces belong to the state and the people of Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I thoroughly disagree with this thesis, we need to maintain the Armed Forces at the current level's because IMHO we still face an existential threat from the indian state and the indian deep state. Lowering our guard would be foolish, we need to further liberalize our economy - growth will allow us to maintain our defense budget and allow us to spend on the social sectors.

My suggestion would be to privatize the loss making state industries. The price of freedom is high, I have seen many people make the ultimate sacrifice - those who have never seen it would never know.

It is not surprising to find you disagreeing with the point of view expressed by M/s. Niaz and Muse; after all, they speak with balance and reason, and against the worst tendencies of Pakistani polity. It is almost axiomatic therefore that elements like you, apologists for the permanent war lobby, should rise in opposition. But what are the reasons? As usual, when it comes to logic and to reasoned argument, all we get from the fringe elements is incoherence and mysticism, motherhood and apple pie statements like

those who have never seen it would never know.

Apart from displaying that there are in fact no cogent reasons, only a construction of xenophobic hatred, nothing else emerges.

It is also amusing to see the phrase the Indian deep state being used. Just to remind you, this usage was coined by Pakistani commentators who were unable to name openly the Army and the Corps Commanders, as well as the ISI, as the mischievous elements in Pakistani society, and therefore used this bowdlerised version. There is no such inhibition on the Indian side; we can, and when required, we will refer to these elements openly. And as far as the Indian state is concerned, there are no institutions which are beyond civilian control, political control to be precise; it has ironically been the subject matter of numerous complaints by, for instance, the Supreme Court that wishes to see these agencies given greater independence. Given the complete subordination of the Indian equivalents of the Pakistani deep state to Indian civilian authority, there is no need for subterfuge and indirect reference to any Indian body, therefore there is neither need nor justification for using the term Indian deep state, except for polemical purposes by propagandists from the fringes who wish to convert everything to mirror equivalents.

These pathetic verbal manoeuvres only add an element of comic relief to the incoherence and frustrating that we see on display.

And as for the hero from Ireland who is willing to fight to the last Pakistani left in Pakistan, we have seen and heard enough of Internet tough guys not to be either impressed or interested any longer. Take your mediaeval clap-trap elsewhere; perhaps the Provisionals might be interested in your org chart. They are bigoted xenophobes too, skilled in terrorist tricks and uninhibited about collateral damage; common elements and a whole new promising friendship might emerge from a dialogue with them.

 

[niaz]

Don’t know why we can’t have a serious discussion without bringing in religion.

There is no way that you can get another Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA), Hazrat Omar (RA), Hazrat Osman (RA) or Hazrat Ali (RA) so reference to their time is unreasonable. I don’t much care about other Khalifas (except for 4 years of Omar bin Abdul Aziz). According to Maulana Maudoodi all others were Kings in all but name, thus IMO all those believing in Khilafat are living in cuckoo land.

You can have a very good progressive Islamic state without following the Takfiri/Wahabi tyranny. I am not a very religious man but I hardly missed any Friday prayer or Ramzan fast during my 5 years stay in UAE mainly because there was always a mosque present within 5 minutes’ walk from wherever I lived. In a country (Dubai) where wine is freely available in the hotels as well as there are night clubs at every corner; women can walk alone in the middle of the night without any fear of being molested and minor crime is virtually non-existent. Everyone has freedom choice about what he wants to do in his free time. Can you say the same about Pakistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia? Dubai is a modern Islamic state, not a dark age Afghan like Emirate that Taliban and Khilafat would like Pakistan to become.

No one can deny that Pakistan defence forces are rather large. We need them mainly to fight India. Excluding Kashmir, we have very few other disputes with India. Once Kashmir situation cools down, why do we need to spend 50% of national income on defence? I am only advocating cutting out the deadwood from the services to make them lean and deadly. May be we need more COIN forces rather than tank regiments?

Iqbal said a hundred years ago

Khuda key aashiq to hain hazaaron, banon main phertain hain marey marey
Main uska banda banoon ga jisko khuda key bandon sey piyar hog a

Meaning there are thousands of lovers of God who running around aimlessly in the deserts. I will be slave of that one who loves God’s slaves (human beings).

I am advocating that we put welfare of ordinary men of Pakistan at the top of the list. To do this we need to provide them with jobs, housing and education. We can’t achieve this without sustained growth in the economy; this in turn requires investment in infrastructure and job creating projects for which we need funds.

How else can a nation generate income if not thru taxation of some kind? It is not that Pakistan is really a very poor country; despite 1/3 of the population living below poverty line a lot of people have a lot of money and they don’t pay taxes. During a very recent visit to Karachi to attend wedding of a close family friend’s daughter, I was horrified to know that the wedding suit of the bride cost 4 lakh rupees. This is five thousand dollars!!! Enough to feed four poor families for one year. I am not suggesting to tax the poor (that every budget does) but to get everyone into the tax net to generate income to finance public sector projects.

As it is, a very large percentage of the population is without clean drinking water, public health care is non-existent; education level is going down each year and there is a sever e lack of housing.
Pakistani population is growing at the rate of about 2.5% per year. How are we ever going to educate, provide work, housing and other living facilities to future Pakistanis unless we generate funds. May be some Hon members would like to keep borrowing from IMF?

A robust economy will not only benefit common man but also with additional funds defence forces will be able to afford more modern weapons and thus defence will be strengthened in the long run. Besides a strong economy is a must for ability for sustained fighting capability. Is this not what defence is all about?

I would love to hear alternate views, but please don’t preach Khilafat to me. Give me concrete arguments relevant to present day environment. Remember I am not advocating secularism, I am only proposing ‘Defence thru strong economy’.

 

[Rafi]

It is not surprising to find you disagreeing with the point of view expressed by M/s. Niaz and Muse; after all, they speak with balance and reason, and against the worst tendencies of Pakistani polity. It is almost axiomatic therefore that elements like you, apologists for the permanent war lobby, should rise in opposition. But what are the reasons? As usual, when it comes to logic and to reasoned argument, all we get from the fringe elements is incoherence and mysticism, motherhood and apple pie statements like Apart from displaying that there are in fact no cogent reasons, only a construction of xenophobic hatred, nothing else emerges.

It is also amusing to see the phrase the Indian deep state being used. Just to remind you, this usage was coined by Pakistani commentators who were unable to name openly the Army and the Corps Commanders, as well as the ISI, as the mischievous elements in Pakistani society, and therefore used this bowdlerised version. There is no such inhibition on the Indian side; we can, and when required, we will refer to these elements openly. And as far as the Indian state is concerned, there are no institutions which are beyond civilian control, political control to be precise; it has ironically been the subject matter of numerous complaints by, for instance, the Supreme Court that wishes to see these agencies given greater independence. Given the complete subordination of the Indian equivalents of the Pakistani deep state to Indian civilian authority, there is no need for subterfuge and indirect reference to any Indian body, therefore there is neither need nor justification for using the term Indian deep state, except for polemical purposes by propagandists from the fringes who wish to convert everything to mirror equivalents.

These pathetic verbal manoeuvres only add an element of comic relief to the incoherence and frustrating that we see on display.

And as for the hero from Ireland who is willing to fight to the last Pakistani left in Pakistan, we have seen and heard enough of Internet tough guys not to be either impressed or interested any longer. Take your mediaeval clap-trap elsewhere; perhaps the Provisionals might be interested in your org chart. They are bigoted xenophobes too, skilled in terrorist tricks and uninhibited about collateral damage; common elements and a whole new promising friendship might emerge from a dialogue with them.

"Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."


I do not hate indian's far from it, but your state is my enemy, that is a fact, and we Pakistani's will decide what our threat perception is, and what size and capability our Armed Forces should have, you as an indian have no say.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Yes, Yes Yes Yes, but no matter what Pakistan does not have 443,000,000 million starving people like India living below the poverty line. Producing 100,000 or 150,000 IT engineers out if 1.2 billion is a very small fraction and will not make India a super power, never.

No offence but i find this thinking absolutely distasteful. Who gives a damn what India is doing or not, the only that should matter to us is how Pakistan is doing and unfortunately Pakistan is doing extremely bad when it comes to our economy and governance. The political leadership has failed to take the lead and enforce reforms in the nation, this is why we are suffering from an economy crunch. No point of throwing stones at other people houses when ours is made of glass, the poverty figures for both India and Pakistan are roughly the same so nothing to be proud off. Indians are actually putting in the effort to make their country a better place to live by improving the standard of living, can i say the same about Pakistan? Unfortunately NO . We need to stop living in the past glories of outgrowing them economically, instead we should start thinking about the future on how we can force our political leaders to deliver the reforms that are desperately needed and how can the economy start booming again.