Torpedoes of Pak Navy

[Rashid Mahmood]

Naval Aviation uses the Mk-46 ..

 

[Arsalan]

I think india and Pakistan do not have state of the art stand off torpedoes
ASW aircraft use depth charges against submarines

No both sea king and Z9C use anti-ship cruise missile as well as light weight torpedoes. I am just pointing out the fact how these two are missing from the list posted earlier.
For Sea Kings i think we are using Mark 46. The Z9C are reported to be using a Chinese development of Italian A244 incorporating Mark 46 features (called ET-52) or may be Yu-7 which is a development of Mark 46 incorporating some features of A244!

The next question will be, what are we using with the F22p frigates , Answer, again, ET-52C most likely!!

 

[Penguin]

There must be something missing. PN is operating a fleet of ASW helicopters as well and they too can carry torpedos.
There must be some Chinese torpedos as well being used with Z9C

Pakistan naval aviation uses the P3C Orion MPR and the Westland Sea King. Both carry lightweight ASW torpedoes. Orion is cleared for the Mk 44 (mostly retired from US service), Mk 46, Mk 50, Mk 54 or MU90 Impact torpedoes. For the Sea King, the normal anti-submarine weapon load is Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King

Zulfiqar class (F22P) have launchers for 324mm torpedoes. Chinese torps in this size are Yu-7, Yu-11 and ET52. PLAN also has imported A244S, Mk44 and mk46.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22P_Zulfiquar-class_frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_051_destroyer

Normally, one would expect Z-9EC to come with ET-52C torpedo. However, just like 324mm torpedo tubes can fire any number of different 324mm light ASW torpedoes, I don't see why the Z9 can't use US or Italian lightweight torpedoes. After all, the Chinese has copied both the helicopter and existing torpedoes. The Yu-7, for example, is a Chinese development of the US Mk 46 Mod. 2 light ASW torpedo incorporating technologies of the Italian A244-S torpedo. ET52 torpedo is the Chinese development of the Italian Alenia A244-S light ASW acoustic homing torpedo, and is considered by many domestic Chinese sources as Chinese equivalent of the A244-S Mod. 2 version. ET52 is essentially the A244-S torpedo with technologies of US Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedo incorporated. Yu-11 is the follow on of Yu-7.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-7_torpedo#Yu-7
http://www.cccme.org.cn/products/detail-8041276.aspx

By comparision AS565 of French navy take Mk46 or Whitehead A.244/S anti-submarine warfare torpedoes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS565_Panther

If you have a good supply of US Mk44 and Mk46 available (130 items acquiered) and it is compatible with Z9C, then why bother with a further acquisition?.

The Torpedo tubes are not 43x2, which comes with its own launch mechanism. These are LWT tubes that fire Mk46.

You misunderstand. The model indication of the 400mm Bofors torpedoes is Type 43X2. I said NOTHING about the launching tubes.

http://saab.com/naval/weapon_system...anti-surface-warfare/lwt_lightweight_torpedo/

You may be correct in that the Swedish 400mmlaunchers are either single or quad. So, these ships may have both types of launch tubes. In which case you're looking at a triple 324mm asw tube launcher. This can fire any number or different 324mm torpedoes.

 

[Basel]

When you look at the entries there is a year for 'ordered' and a year or period for 'delivered'
E.g. 100 Mk-46 ASW torpedo (1977) 1978-1980
This means ordered 1977 and delivered 1978- 1980

For the Chinese arms, these are ORDERED only.


No, it is an encapsulated launch antiship missile, much like SM-39 Exocet and UGM-84 Harpoon.

UGM-84 Harpoon

SM-39 Exocet

I've included the missile that were ordered for sumarines, because the initial post mentioned Babur (which we do not yet know is available for submarine tube launch). I found no entries confirming UGM-84 Harpoon for the Agosta 90Bs.

I think both systems are in use of PN because 70s & 90s both can fire AShMs.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Pakistan naval aviation uses the P3C Orion MPR and the Westland Sea King. Both carry lightweight ASW torpedoes. Orion is cleared for the Mk 44 (mostly retired from US service), Mk 46, Mk 50, Mk 54 or MU90 Impact torpedoes. For the Sea King, the normal anti-submarine weapon load is Mark 44 or Mark 46 torpedoes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King

Zulfiqar class (F22P) have launchers for 324mm torpedoes. Chinese torps in this size are Yu-7, Yu-11 and ET52. PLAN also has imported A244S, Mk44 and mk46.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22P_Zulfiquar-class_frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_051_destroyer

I don't see why the Z9 can't use US or Italian lightweight torpedoes. After all, the Chinese has copied both the helicopter and existing torpedoes. The Yu-7, for example, is a Chinese development of the US Mk 46 Mod. 2 light ASW torpedo incorporating technologies of the Italian A244-S torpedo. ET52 torpedo is the Chinese development of the Italian Alenia A244-S light ASW acoustic homing torpedo, and is considered by many domestic Chinese sources as Chinese equivalent of the A244-S Mod. 2 version. ET52 is essentially the A244-S torpedo with technologies of US Mk 46 Mod. 2 torpedo incorporated. Yu-11 is the follow on of Yu-7.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu-7_torpedo#Yu-7

If you have a good supply of US Mk44 and Mk46 available (130 items acquiered) and it is compatible with Z9C, then why bother with a further acquisition?.


You misunderstand. The model indication of the 400mm Bofors torpedoes is Type 43X2. I said NOTHING about the launching tubes.

You may be correct in that the Swedish launchers are either single or quad. So, these ships may have both types of launch tubes. In which case you're looking at a triple 324mm asw tube launcher.

The 43X2 is not on ships with the ASTT, only the modernized configuration is able to fire the boors wire guided Torp.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I think both systems are in use of PN because 70s & 90s both can fire AShMs.

Pakistani Daphne and later Agosta was the first submarine platform in Asia to fire a ASM, that too a capable one such as Harpoon. For years this strategic capability kept Indian navy designs on a sea blockade of Karachi at bay. Agosta 90B is also able to fire the SM-39 Exocet ASM. Both submarines are also able to fire F17 and F17 Mod2 torpedoes. In addition, DM42A torpedoes are also integrated. On the other side, India is yet to purchase or integrate the black shark torpedo for its Scorpene, limiting it to a surveillance platform only, and relying heavily on its Kilo class submarines for littoral water operations.

The navy continues to be a silent service, armed with key capabilities of both surveillance and attack, and ready to undertake any offensive or defensive mission, as required by the prevailing conditions. The navy is also quietly modernizing its capability, ensuring its edge on key force multiplier capabilities, keeping ahead of the littoral combat scenarios it may duly face at the time of a low intensity or high intensity conflict in the Arabian sea.

 

[Penguin]

I think both systems are in use of PN because 70s & 90s both can fire AShMs.

AFAIK only 90Bs have Exocet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine

The three submarines, the Khalid class, are equipped and capable of firing Exocet missiles, while the older Agosta 70A submarines have been equipped with United States Harpoon missiles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy#Submarines_of_the_Pakistan_Navy

But, as I indicated, I didn't see the Harpoon UGM-84 listed in SIPRI database. Which could mean a) not sold, b) submarines prepared for this missile but no missiles purchased, c) sold but not recorded as UGM-84 (i.e. lumped in together with RGM-84 and AGM-84), or d) sold but not recorded.

There is no record in DSCA online of ANY pending UGM-84 sale, and this goes back to 2008.

The other thing I found is this:
"Pakistan’s Hangor and Hashmat class submarines both use the UGM-84 Harpoon. the United States sold Pakistan a Tench submarine in 1964. The Pakistanis also bought several MK-44 torpedoes in 1965-1966, but it cannot be confirmed that these were used on their submarines. (Source 1, 2 and 3)"
https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/attach/134/134790_Submarine Task.doc
These sources are:

1. http://www.militaryperiscope.com
2. Ship trade register (Attached)
3. Missile trade register (Attached)

And this:
"Pakistan 40 x AGM/RGM/UGM-84Harpoon missile"
http://www.un-register.org/HeavyWeapons/CountryDetail.aspx?Register_Id=1717

Which would lead me to conclude the situation is c) sold but not recorded as UGM-84 (i.e. lumped in together with RGM-84 and AGM-84)

This notwithstanding:
"Sub-Harpoon is operated by Australia, Egypt, Greece, Israel, Italy (which does not use the missile for surface ships), Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States. In addition, Canada and the Netherlands fitted submarines to fire Sub-Harpoon, but never bought any."
http://www.worldmissiles.com/sample.php

The 43X2 is not on ships with the ASTT, only the modernized configuration is able to fire the boors wire guided Torp.

That could make sense. Question, didn't all Type 21 get the Swedish torpedo? I know some got Harpoon while others got LY60 SAM. Only some initially got Phalanx CIWS while others got 2 single 30mm cannon. Pls clarify.

Picture of Swedish launch installation?

 

[maxpayne]

Lightweight Torpedo - A244-S
Country of Origin - Italy

View attachment 340642

Heavyweight Torpedo - DM2A4
Country of Origin - Germany

View attachment 340640

We dont have light weight torpedo A244S.
We have DM2 and it is excellent weapon. Even India wanted their variant for scorpienes!!

 

[Penguin]

We dont have light weight torpedo A244S.
We have DM2 and it is excellent weapon. Even India wanted their variant for scorpienes!!

Sipri says you ordered 12. Perhaps they ended up in ... China?

On the UGM-84 on the Agosta 70s, some more digging using "Sub-Harpoon" got me this:
"The Pakistani boats were fitted to launch Sub-Harpoon missiles in 1984–1985 and remain in service. "
From:
Submarines: An Illustrated History of Their Impact
By Paul E. Fontenoy
ABC-CLIO (2007)
http://www.abc-clio.com/ABC-CLIOCorporate/SearchResults.aspx?type=a
http://www.abc-clio.com/ABC-CLIOCorporate/product.aspx?pc=A1571C
See here:
https://books.google.nl/books?id=yD3eSRfUIesC&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq="Sub-Harpoon"+Pakistan&source=bl&ots=W9E_hujlka&sig=Xsky-n_C7SvhMlKGo71xThAgvOE&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPquHz48PPAhWD8RQKHSuvAgkQ6AEIUzAG#v=onepage&q="Sub-Harpoon" Pakistan&f=false

This, in combination with Sipri data, suggest scenario b) submarines prepared for this missile but no missiles purchased.

It would be consistent with
"The HASHMATs were modified in 1985 to fire Sub-HARPOON depth-to-surface anti-ship missiles."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/navy-intro.htm

Question of debate remains the actual acquisition of Sub-Harpoon.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/hashmat.htm

https://books.google.nl/books?id=lt...AJ#v=onepage&q="Sub-Harpoon" Pakistan&f=false

Worst case is scenario b) and best case is c)

 

[maxpayne]

Sipri says you ordered 12. Perhaps they ended up in ... China?

On the UGM-84 on the Agosta 70s, some more digging using "Sub-Harpoon" got me this:
"The Pakistani boats were fitted to launch Sub-Harpoon missiles in 1984–1985 and remain in service. "
From:
Submarines: An Illustrated History of Their Impact
By Paul E. Fontenoy
ABC-CLIO (2007)
http://www.abc-clio.com/ABC-CLIOCorporate/SearchResults.aspx?type=a
http://www.abc-clio.com/ABC-CLIOCorporate/product.aspx?pc=A1571C
See here:
https://books.google.nl/books?id=yD3eSRfUIesC&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq="Sub-Harpoon"+Pakistan&source=bl&ots=W9E_hujlka&sig=Xsky-n_C7SvhMlKGo71xThAgvOE&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPquHz48PPAhWD8RQKHSuvAgkQ6AEIUzAG#v=onepage&q="Sub-Harpoon" Pakistan&f=false

This, in combination with Sipri data, suggest scenario b) submarines prepared for this missile but no missiles purchased.

It would be consistent with
"The HASHMATs were modified in 1985 to fire Sub-HARPOON depth-to-surface anti-ship missiles."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/navy-intro.htm

Question of debate remains the actual acquisition of Sub-Harpoon.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/hashmat.htm

https://books.google.nl/books?id=ltOgS1FjiR4C&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq="Sub-Harpoon"+Pakistan&source=bl&ots=qP2lM3Mut4&sig=UMuCM29Xr_rDxy6gVRd-qQ3yT-M&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPquHz48PPAhWD8RQKHSuvAgkQ6AEIazAJ#v=onepage&q="Sub-Harpoon" Pakistan&f=false

Worst case is scenario b) and best case is c)

Im telling u we dont have them. SIPRI is wrong im right!

 

[Penguin]

Im telling u we dont have them. SIPRI is wrong im right!

Do you have to quote the whole post? Pls edit to quote only the relevant portion.

As for the Italian A244 torpedoes, as listed by SIPRI, their acquisition seems to coincide with the delivery of 3 MG 110 Midget Submarines MG 110 type built in Pakistan under supervision by Cosmos (enlarged SX 756 of Italian Cosmos design). 12 A244 could mean 4 per minisub, which each have 2 533mm tubes and could launch smaller diameter torpedoes using a sleeve. Just speculating here. At that time, PN was also flying 3 Lynx helicopters and 3 Brequet Atlantique MPAs, all of which could well have used A244.

"The torpedo has been exported to Argentina, China, Ecuador, Greece, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Nigeria, Pakistan, Peru, Singapore, Sweden, Taiwan, Turkey, Venezuela and Yugoslavia."
http://pakdef.org/a-244s-and-a-290-lightweight-torpedoes/

"Pakistan Navy - 12"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A244-S#Current_operators

12 is not a huge number. I suspect today, they are no longer there. QUestion is where they went, did they expire, were they expended, or e.g. shipped to China? 12 could also be a quantity used for testing, to see if further purchase is warrented.

 

[Fenrir]

We have DM2 and it is excellent weapon.

They are indeed a fantastic piece of kit. Just look at what one did to KNM Stavanger!!

One shot, one kill. Had the ship been armed with anything other then fuel the damage would be even greater.

The torpedo (an older DM2A3) was launched from the tiny Ula Class submarine S302 Utstein.

 

[Imran Khan]

Imran bhai chehra kyon chupa diya ha pic ma apne

Any idea what torpedoes these are

Khan sahib,

Mukhra tau dikha daitay

ab ap se kya parda bhai ji

 

[Moon]

Do you have to quote the whole post? Pls edit to quote only the relevant portion.

As for the Italian A244 torpedoes, as listed by SIPRI, their acquisition seems to coincide with the delivery of 3 MG 110 Midget Submarines MG 110 type built in Pakistan under supervision by Cosmos (enlarged SX 756 of Italian Cosmos design). 12 A244 could mean 4 per minisub, which each have 2 533mm tubes and could launch smaller diameter torpedoes using a sleeve. Just speculating here. At that time, PN was also flying 3 Lynx helicopters and 3 Brequet Atlantique MPAs, all of which could well have used A244.

"The torpedo has been exported to Argentina, China, Ecuador, Greece, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Nigeria, Pakistan, Peru, Singapore, Sweden, Taiwan, Turkey, Venezuela and Yugoslavia."
http://pakdef.org/a-244s-and-a-290-lightweight-torpedoes/

"Pakistan Navy - 12"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A244-S#Current_operators

12 is not a huge number. I suspect today, they are no longer there. QUestion is where they went, did they expire, were they expended, or e.g. shipped to China? 12 could also be a quantity used for testing, to see if further purchase is warrented.

Or got reverse engineered within Pakistan.
As daft as it may sound. It could be a possibility I do remember there was a rumor that several foreign naval mines were being reverse engineered and being made in Pakistan.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

nice pics