To Indians and followers of Hindu religion

[Joe Shearer]

I learned something new today.I didnt know that Sri was a trademark of Iyers.

As a Tamil from Lanka sometimes I get confused by the naming conventions followed in South India. Jaffna(yazhpana) Vellalas and Lankan Brahmins cannot be differentiated based on names. Its common for a Jaffna Vellala to have a name such as "Radhakrishnan"(and ironically the "Radhakrishnan" will be a staunch shaivite...as all Hindus in Lanka are Shaivites.lol) or Subramanian or a name starting with Sri.

At the same time, its also not uncommon(yet rare) for Jaffna Brahmins to have Vellala names such as Rajakulendran, Edhirveerasingam or Ratnasabapathy. I wonder why this disparity exists between the naming conventions in TN and Lanka.

Very interesting, but should be answered by Kartic Sri, if Subramaniam will not deign to :p

I wonder whether Sri is actually exclusive to Iyers; what about Srinivasan and Sriram and their equivalent, Thirunarayanan, Thirumalachariar and so on? And there are names quite clearly confined to Nattukottai Chettiars, since nobody else seems to bear them, as well as those shared between them and others - Vellayan and Valliappan seem to be distinctive, Murugappan is found in others as well, Muthiah is shared, Shanmugham is shared.

In general, your observation is interesting: I can't think of a single example of a Vellala name among Iyers or Iyengars. Society was far more divided in Tamizh Nadu than, from what you say, it was in Jaffna; that might be a reason.

Another entertaining division, for a northerner, is that while Iyers do bear the names of Vishnu, an Iyengar will never, ever bear the names of Siva or Kartik or any other manifestation of divinity other than Vishnu. Your example of Radhakrishnan, for instance; may be Iyer, may be Iyengar, just like Ramakrishnan, but unlike Sivaramakrishnan.

And then they get very puzzled, a little bothered and defensive when confronted with Iyer ire. One is reminded of the three ego-states, SIB style. ;-D

 

[TenjikuKensei]

Very interesting, but should be answered by Kartic Sri, if Subramaniam will not deign to :p

I wonder whether Sri is actually exclusive to Iyers; what about Srinivasan and Sriram and their equivalent, Thirunarayanan, Thirumalachariar and so on? And there are names quite clearly confined to Nattukottai Chettiars, since nobody else seems to bear them, as well as those shared between them and others - Vellayan and Valliappan seem to be distinctive, Murugappan is found in others as well, Muthiah is shared, Shanmugham is shared.

In general, your observation is interesting: I can't think of a single example of a Vellala name among Iyers or Iyengars. Society was far more divided in Tamizh Nadu than, from what you say, it was in Jaffna; that might be a reason.

On second thoughts I have to retract a couple of names from my list...I believe I am mistaken in including the names Rajakulendran and Edhirveerasingham as names used by Jaffna Brahmins. Apart from only two people I know of..I do not recall any other Jaffna Brahmins having those names. Therefore they were probably very rare cases or probably are from a mixed family. As intermarriage between Vellalas and Brahmins is not uncommon.

However, Ratnasabapathy is used by Brahmins. One has to add that the title Iyer or Sharma is oft added to the names. Thus its usually Ratnasabapathy iyer.


As for the divisions; yes I believe the divisions between caste-specific names seems someone porous compared to TN. But then again this porousness usually exists between the Vellalas and Brahmins in lanka as they used to have somewhat of a symbiotic relationship from the onset.

Another entertaining division, for a northerner, is that while Iyers do bear the names of Vishnu, an Iyengar will never, ever bear the names of Siva or Kartik or any other manifestation of divinity other than Vishnu. Your example of Radhakrishnan, for instance; may be Iyer, may be Iyengar, just like Ramakrishnan, but unlike Sivaramakrishnan.

This is interesting indeed. My knowledge of the nuances of the Iyer Iyangar division is almost nill as we do not have any Iyengars in lanka. Somehow the Vaishnavite school of Hinduism is conspicuously missing. Even the Hinduism textbook for school it named "Shaiva religion". I guess its a common mistake on the part of those who titled the textbok series because for us Hinduism pretty much equals Shaivism.

In daily life, if one is asked about his religious persuasion, people would say "Shaiva" instead of Hindu. Even though we "mean" Hindu, we use the word Shaiva instead....one would be hard pressed to find someone claiming to be a Hindu instead of Shaiva if inquired about his religion. The same applies to restaurants. Vegetarian restaurants are called Shaiva-restaurants and non-veg ones are called A-Shaiva restaurants.

To top it all...Lankan Christians translate the bible as "veda" in Tamil. Which leads to hilarious(only to an outsider) questions such as "Are you Shaiva or Veda?". If one answers Vedha it means he is a Christian! . People over there do not think it is strange...but I bet anyone not used to the local lingo would be flabbergasted!

And then they get very puzzled, a little bothered and defensive when confronted with Iyer ire. One is reminded of the three ego-states, SIB style. ;-D

I apologize for not getting your joke as I do not know what SIB means.

 

[KS]

Very interesting, but should be answered by Kartic Sri, if Subramaniam will not deign to :p

I wonder whether Sri is actually exclusive to Iyers; what about Srinivasan and Sriram and their equivalent, Thirunarayanan, Thirumalachariar and so on? And there are names quite clearly confined to Nattukottai Chettiars, since nobody else seems to bear them, as well as those shared between them and others - Vellayan and Valliappan seem to be distinctive, Murugappan is found in others as well, Muthiah is shared, Shanmugham is shared.

Actually I was reluctant to share my second name and that why the second name has been shortened as 'Sri' from the name of the presiding deity of Tirupati.
9/10 people bearing that name in TN will invariably be an Iyer or Iyengar and only the remaining one will be from a different caste.

And that is waht I meant when I said that name was a trademark of Brahmins.

Another entertaining division, for a northerner, is that while Iyers do bear the names of Vishnu, an Iyengar will never, ever bear the names of Siva or Kartik or any other manifestation of divinity other than Vishnu. Your example of Radhakrishnan, for instance; may be Iyer, may be Iyengar, just like Ramakrishnan, but unlike Sivaramakrishnan.

Actually Iyengars in TN consider the Iyers to be of a lower caste and rarely do they marry them. And while Iyers are mostly Shaivites the Iyengars are exclusively Vaishnavites.And hence this need to differentiate.

 

[KS]

This is interesting indeed. My knowledge of the nuances of the Iyer Iyangar division is almost nill as we do not have any Iyengars in lanka. Somehow the Vaishnavite school of Hinduism is conspicuously missing. Even the Hinduism textbook for school it named "Shaiva religion". I guess its a common mistake on the part of those who titled the textbok series because for us Hinduism pretty much equals Shaivism.

May be because the Cholas who completed the conquest of Sri Lanka under Raja Raja and Rajendra were staunch Shaivites and even Raavan of Lanka was supposed to be the most devout Bhakt of Lord Shiva.

 

[TenjikuKensei]

May be because the Cholas who completed the conquest of Sri Lanka under Raja Raja and Rajendra were staunch Shaivites and even Raavan of Lanka was supposed to be the most devout Bhakt of Lord Shiva.

This is a most plausible explanation...and probably the main reason why Shaivite Hinduism came to be the only school of Hinduism found in the island.

 

[Joe Shearer]

On second thoughts I have to retract a couple of names from my list...I believe I am mistaken in including the names Rajakulendran and Edhirveerasingham as names used by Jaffna Brahmins. Apart from only two people I know of..I do not recall any other Jaffna Brahmins having those names. Therefore they were probably very rare cases or probably are from a mixed family. As intermarriage between Vellalas and Brahmins is not uncommon.

That sounds more likely!

Regarding Vellala-Brahmin intermarriage, you are probably giving some of our friends the creeping willies. When an Iyengar gentleman of my acquaintance married an Iyer lady, the Swamiji refused to accept her shev'ke and removed his feet (all Iyengars, except some select families, follow a Swamiji)!

However, Ratnasabapathy is used by Brahmins. One has to add that the title Iyer or Sharma is oft added to the names. Thus its usually Ratnasabapathy iyer.

As for the divisions; yes I believe the divisions between caste-specific names seems someone porous compared to TN. But then again this porousness usually exists between the Vellalas and Brahmins in lanka as they used to have somewhat of a symbiotic relationship from the onset.

This is interesting indeed. My knowledge of the nuances of the Iyer Iyangar division is almost nill as we do not have any Iyengars in lanka. Somehow the Vaishnavite school of Hinduism is conspicuously missing. Even the Hinduism textbook for school it named "Shaiva religion". I guess its a common mistake on the part of those who titled the textbok series because for us Hinduism pretty much equals Shaivism.

In daily life, if one is asked about his religious persuasion, people would say "Shaiva" instead of Hindu. Even though we "mean" Hindu, we use the word Shaiva instead....one would be hard pressed to find someone claiming to be a Hindu instead of Shaiva if inquired about his religion. The same applies to restaurants. Vegetarian restaurants are called Shaiva-restaurants and non-veg ones are called A-Shaiva restaurants.

To top it all...Lankan Christians translate the bible as "veda" in Tamil. Which leads to hilarious(only to an outsider) questions such as "Are you Shaiva or Veda?". If one answers Vedha it means he is a Christian! . People over there do not think it is strange...but I bet anyone not used to the local lingo would be flabbergasted!

Actually, that is in fact a more accurate description than Hindu; we are Saiva, or Vaishnava, or (in the east, particularly) Shakta. I am a Shakta, for instance; if I say so, people in the south immediately stop stealing glances at my unpierced ears and trying to figure out if I am Malayali or Muslim (since I am rather unfortunately clearly not Tamizh). The downside to this identity crisis was being stopped at the Dhanvantari shrine (we are Vaidyas, hence the keen interest) at the great shrine at Srirangam, on the grounds that only Hindus were allowed entry into the Garbhagriha.

I apologize for not getting your joke as I do not know what SIB means.

It is said, somewhat uncharitably, by persons unknown and entirely unwilling to be known, that there are three ego-states among South Indian Brahmins: I, Iyer and Iyengar.

Actually I was reluctant to share my second name and that why the second name has been shortened as 'Sri' from the name of the presiding deity of Tirupati.
9/10 people bearing that name in TN will invariably be an Iyer or Iyengar and only the remaining one will be from a different caste.

And that is waht I meant when I said that name was a trademark of Brahmins.

True; but due to that very reason, it is a most popular name among both Iyers and Iyengars. Coming to think of it, there are a number of Vellala Srinivasans I know as well.

Actually Iyengars in TN consider the Iyers to be of a lower caste and rarely do they marry them. And while Iyers are mostly Shaivites the Iyengars are exclusively Vaishnavites.And hence this need to differentiate.

They do, do they? Actually, they do, in a kind of taking-it-for-granted insouciant kind of way that drives Iyers completely crazy.

You need to research a little into Vadagalai and Thengalai, and you will understand a little more about the Iyengars. And I was deeply astonished to find you saying that Iyers are mostly Saiva, but Iyengars are only Vaishnava. So you know about Vaishnava Iyers. Impressed!

May be because the Cholas who completed the conquest of Sri Lanka under Raja Raja and Rajendra were staunch Shaivites and even Raavan of Lanka was supposed to be the most devout Bhakt of Lord Shiva.

Here you would do well to consult time lines. Saivism was quite widespread in Tamizh Nadu in the early mediaeval period. It was consolidated by Sankaracharyya in around 800 AD. Vaishnavism, on the other hand, in the sense of Vishishtadvaita, Monism with Attributes, was an introduction of the 11th century. Sriramanujacharya's relationship with the Chozha court was never easy. His expulsion or his self-exile, whichever version of the story we find more plausible, was either under Kulothunga I or Kulothunga II.

It is not at all surprising to find a strong affinity to Saivism in Sri Lanka, both before and after the Chozha.

This is a most plausible explanation...and probably the main reason why Shaivite Hinduism came to be the only school of Hinduism found in the island.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[TenjikuKensei]

That sounds more likely!

Regarding Vellala-Brahmin intermarriage, you are probably giving some of our friends the creeping willies. When an Iyengar gentleman of my acquaintance married an Iyer lady, the Swamiji refused to accept her shev'ke and removed his feet (all Iyengars, except some select families, follow a Swamiji)!

I had no inkling that there was such rivalry(for the want of a better term) between the Iyers and Iyengars.

As for intermarriage between lankan Vellalas and Brahmins, I'm no expert, but I don't think its much of an issue over here. Oft I don't even realize that the person I'm talking to is a Brahmin cos unless otherwise stated; its impossible for me infer that from a person's mannerisms(by way of slang..or names and such) in lanka.

Actually, that is in fact a more accurate description than Hindu; we are Saiva, or Vaishnava, or (in the east, particularly) Shakta. I am a Shakta, for instance; if I say so, people in the south immediately stop stealing glances at my unpierced ears and trying to figure out if I am Malayali or Muslim (since I am rather unfortunately clearly not Tamizh). The downside to this identity crisis was being stopped at the Dhanvantari shrine (we are Vaidyas, hence the keen interest) at the great shrine at Srirangam, on the grounds that only Hindus were allowed entry into the Garbhagriha.

I've never met a Shakta before. I've only read about them.
(I guess I just highlighted how limited my Indian visits have been...geography-wise. ).


Btw, did you mean pierced ears by any chance? because afaik Shaivites or Vaishnavites do not pierce their ears.


In South India people always confuse us for Malayalees. This can be attributable to the fact that the Tamil we speak is an older version of that which is spoken in TN...and according to some linguists...the Tamil spoken in the TN/Kerala region before Malayalam split as a separate language about 8 centuries ago. Thus we retain some words wich are now used only in Malayalam but not used in TN Tamil...not to mention some grammatical features which have disappeared altogether from TN Tamil.

It is said, somewhat uncharitably, by persons unknown and entirely unwilling to be known, that there are three ego-states among South Indian Brahmins: I, Iyer and Iyengar.

Ah! SIB stands for south Indian Brahmin..darn it..i should ave guessed!
nice pun with the I's!

Here you would do well to consult time lines. Saivism was quite widespread in Tamizh Nadu in the early mediaeval period. It was consolidated by Sankaracharyya in around 800 AD. Vaishnavism, on the other hand, in the sense of Vishishtadvaita, Monism with Attributes, was an introduction of the 11th century. Sriramanujacharya's relationship with the Chozha court was never easy. His expulsion or his self-exile, whichever version of the story we find more plausible, was either under Kulothunga I or Kulothunga II.

It is not at all surprising to find a strong affinity to Saivism in Sri Lanka, both before and after the Chozha.

True, now that you mention it, I am reminded of the Thevaram(hyms) sung by the nayanars(Shaivite devotional poets of TN) of the 4th to 8th century praising the Shiva temples in Lanka. The local legends claim that 5 Ishwarams ringed the island from the ancient days..now only three remain(even though the ones that exist today are apparently not the original ones, as they have been periodically destroyed by Buddhist kings as well as the Dutch/Portuguese). One has to also note that the Lankan Hindu revival of the mid 1800s was spearheaded by Navalar, a staunch shaivite; so even if any vestiges of Vaishnavism remained till then, they were probably left by the wayside during the reforms. But as you and Karthic correctly pointed out, Shaivism was pretty much the main school of Hinduism present on this island for at least a millenia.

Arumuka Navalar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[KS]

True; but due to that very reason, it is a most popular name among both Iyers and Iyengars. Coming to think of it, there are a number of Vellala Srinivasans I know as well.

There are many Vellalars in TN for example Vellala Gounders (Kongu region of Western TN), Chozhiya Vellalar(clustered around Neyveli,Cuddalore,Nagapattinam) etc. Even some Vanniyars (Krishangiri,Dharmapuri,Vellore etc) refer to themselves as Vellalars.

I was specifically referring to Vellala Gounders among whom this is a very uncommon name.

They do, do they? Actually, they do, in a kind of taking-it-for-granted insouciant kind of way that drives Iyers completely crazy.

You need to research a little into Vadagalai and Thengalai, and you will understand a little more about the Iyengars. And I was deeply astonished to find you saying that Iyers are mostly Saiva, but Iyengars are only Vaishnava. So you know about Vaishnava Iyers. Impressed!

Maybe a proper way I could have put is 'though Iyers may worship Vishnu', the absolute majority of the Iyengars worship only 'Vishnu'

A popular joke in TN is "While the Iyers do it the horizontal way (Pattai - sacred ash laid in a horizontal way on the forehead denoting Shiva), the Iyengars do it the Vertical way (Thiru Naamam)

Here you would do well to consult time lines. Saivism was quite widespread in Tamizh Nadu in the early mediaeval period. It was consolidated by Sankaracharyya in around 800 AD. Vaishnavism, on the other hand, in the sense of Vishishtadvaita, Monism with Attributes, was an introduction of the 11th century. Sriramanujacharya's relationship with the Chozha court was never easy. His expulsion or his self-exile, whichever version of the story we find more plausible, was either under Kulothunga I or Kulothunga II.

It is not at all surprising to find a strong affinity to Saivism in Sri Lanka, both before and after the Chozha.

Thats what I said by "Might be because". Anyway thanks for the input.One additional thing I learned

 

[Joe Shearer]

I had no inkling that there was such rivalry(for the want of a better term) between the Iyers and Iyengars.

As for intermarriage between lankan Vellalas and Brahmins, I'm no expert, but I don't think its much of an issue over here. Oft I don't even realize that the person I'm talking to is a Brahmin cos unless otherwise stated; its impossible for me infer that from a person's mannerisms(by way of slang..or names and such) in lanka.

'Brahmin' Tamizh and DMK Tamizh are so wide apart as to be quite funny. Many years ago, I heard Rukmini Devi inaugurate a Kalakshetram season, and had no difficulty in parsing her perfectly familiar Tamizh, both from my mother's speech overheard, and from listening carefully to my in-laws. Then the DMK minister rose, and it was a lesson. I couldn't understand more than one or two sentences. my wife was sitting next to me, looking pole-axed; they are not habitual 'Madras' Tamizh speakers, and have a huge infusion of Kannada on an older version of Tamizh for their native speech, so she was (then) completely out of it. Subsequently, she has developed a taste for Tamizh films and is quite up to most stuff.

I've never met a Shakta before. I've only read about them.
(I guess I just highlighted how limited my Indian visits have been...geography-wise. ).

Btw, did you mean pierced ears by any chance? because afaik Shaivites or Vaishnavites do not pierce their ears.

Dead give-away. Ask any Tamizh.

In South India people always confuse us for Malayalees. This can be attributable to the fact that the Tamil we speak is an older version of that which is spoken in TN...and according to some linguists...the Tamil spoken in the TN/Kerala region before Malayalam split as a separate language about 8 centuries ago. Thus we retain some words wich are now used only in Malayalam but not used in TN Tamil...not to mention some grammatical features which have disappeared altogether from TN Tamil.

I am told that a Sri Lanka accent is easy to spot. I can't myself, though.

Cheers.

 

[TenjikuKensei]

'Brahmin' Tamizh and DMK Tamizh are so wide apart as to be quite funny. Many years ago, I heard Rukmini Devi inaugurate a Kalakshetram season, and had no difficulty in parsing her perfectly familiar Tamizh, both from my mother's speech overheard, and from listening carefully to my in-laws. Then the DMK minister rose, and it was a lesson. I couldn't understand more than one or two sentences. my wife was sitting next to me, looking pole-axed; they are not habitual 'Madras' Tamizh speakers, and have a huge infusion of Kannada on an older version of Tamizh for their native speech, so she was (then) completely out of it. Subsequently, she has developed a taste for Tamizh films and is quite up to most stuff.

The DMK version is probably one that follows the written Tamil....as you know Tamil is a highly diglossic language, with the written version being too formal and by-the-book.

One of the main differences I noticed between Tamil dialects spoken in TN and Lanka is that in the lankan one we always use the plural term to address a person...even for small kids. Its not the royal "we" but something that is considered to confer more respect upon the person thus addressed. If someone calls me using a singular I know that something is very wrong...as its considered a serious insult.lol...imagine my surprise when (as a kid) I visited India for the first time and was quite taken aback at the way people addressed me. They would be like "Enna paiya, nee enna panre?" (hey boy, what are you doing?)...and I used to think "Why is he using "nee" instead of "neengal" (neengal is plural nee is singular). Even though my parents explained the differences in the dialects...I had a hard time getting used to the notion that this is how the way things are here and to the fact that I'm not being intentionally insulted. Oh and also they use paiya(for boy) and ponnu(for girl) we use "magan" and "magal" instead....terms which are found in archaic sangam works but probably went out of practice in TN later on. This is true for many other words/grammatical usages as well.

Dead give-away. Ask any Tamizh.

Ah I see. So Shaktas have pierced ears.One learns new things everyday

I am told that a Sri Lanka accent is easy to spot. I can't myself, though.

Cheers.

It is very easy to spot in the sense that its unlike any TN accent or even the Malaysia/Singaporen ones. It's impossible to miss.. Think of the difference between Shakespearean English(old English) and modern English and you pretty much have an approximation of the diff between the Jaffna Tamil and TN one.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The DMK version is probably one that follows the written Tamil....as you know Tamil is a highly diglossic language, with the written version being too formal and by-the-book.

For what it's worth, a hundred years ago, Bengali used to be in two forms, the formal (written) and the informal (spoken). Over the last hundred years, and even as I watched, all written communications have converged with the spoken form; the formal Bengali is almost dead. That formal Bengali would be a Bengali almost impossibly Sanskritised.

What the Bangladeshis are doing with the language is beautiful, it is continued and sustained innovation; they are clearly ahead of West Bengal in music, literature, drama, perhaps equal in cinema.

One of the main differences I noticed between Tamil dialects spoken in TN and Lanka is that in the lankan one we always use the plural term to address a person...even for small kids. Its not the royal "we" but something that is considered to confer more respect upon the person thus addressed. If someone calls me using a singular I know that something is very wrong...as its considered a serious insult.lol...imagine my surprise when (as a kid) I visited India for the first time and was quite taken aback at the way people addressed me. They would be like "Enna paiya, nee enna panre?" (hey boy, what are you doing?)...and I used to think "Why is he using "nee" instead of "neengal" (neengal is plural nee is singular). Even though my parents explained the differences in the dialects...I had a hard time getting used to the notion that this is how the way things are here and to the fact that I'm not being intentionally insulted. Oh and also they use paiya(for boy) and ponnu(for girl) we use "magan" and "magal" instead....terms which are found in archaic sangam works but probably went out of practice in TN later on. This is true for many other words/grammatical usages as well.

That's strange! I know paiya; my mother had a little pet monkey named Mangu Paiya. But Hebbar Tamizh uses Ponn', Mogu and Maga, almost equally. Hebbar Tamizh uses a lot of Kannada, and Mogu and Maga are the Kannada equivalents (Chikmagalur is a word, a placename you should be able to translate easily: Chik + Maga + Ur).

Ah I see. So Shaktas have pierced ears.One learns new things everyday

(Ulp!)

Er, no! It's the TamBrahms, both Iyer and Iyengar, who have pierced ears. Our ears are virgin.

It is very easy to spot in the sense that its unlike any TN accent or even the Malaysia/Singaporen ones. It's impossible to miss.. Think of the difference between Shakespearean English(old English) and modern English and you pretty much have an approximation of the diff between the Jaffna Tamil and TN one.

That's the vocabulary and grammar. How about the intonations, and so on?

Fascinating information; thanks.

 

[absmonarch]

Joe Shearer, you are too knowledgable for this forum. Please put ur talents to better use than argue with ill-informed Pakistani teenager.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe Shearer, you are too knowledgable for this forum. Please put ur talents to better use than argue with ill-informed Pakistani teenager.

Which one?

Enquiring minds wish to know.

BTW, there are a couple of promising Indian and Chinese teenagers too!